Marriage Licenses: The Real Truth

[PaulConventionWV]

True, and Theocrat just posted a great article by Chuck Baldwin explaining that although Christianity provides the firm philosophical foundation for Liberty, too many Christians today have statist mindsets, and he finds that he would support an atheist for office if they were firm Constitutionalists.

What we have had for a long time in this country is a cultus, or state-religion, that sometimes uses Christian-sounding words but worships at the altar of the State.

Obama, Huckabee, Bush, Clinton, Bachmann, Romney, etc. all worship this state-religion. The Christians of the founding generation, the patriot-preachers, looked on this statism with disgust. There was no state-religion at the time of say, the Articles of Confederation, because there was no centralized government. Religion back then was there to RESTRAIN government, not feed it.

I am indebted to you a thousand rep!

 

[erowe1]

And you still have your head in the sand about how social conservatives are part of the problem when they choose to try to use religion to force others to live the way they want them to live.

I come across this charge a lot. But I haven't seen much evidence for it. Can you give an example?

 

[Guitarzan]

I come across this charge a lot. But I haven't seen much evidence for it. Can you give an example?

I would say that drug policy could have significant pressure from so-cons. Also, the gay thing...I don't believe that most so-cons oppose gay marriage from a policital philsophical point of view, but rather because of what the Bible tells them. Also, our foreign policy comes to mind as having somewhat of a biblical aspect to it.

 

[nbhadja]

I come across this charge a lot. But I haven't seen much evidence for it. Can you give an example?

By believing the states have the "right" to tell people what to put in their bodies (drugs) as if somehow the state telling you what to put in your body is better than the federal government telling you want to do. Social conservatives would probably oppose a federal bill legalizing drugs.

Or by making the excuse the freedom is hurt by the government allowing churches to do gay marriages (if they want, it is not forced). The excuses for opposing drug legalization and gay marriage are telling proof of social conservatives shoving their religion down other people's throats.

 

[erowe1]

I would say that drug policy could have significant pressure from so-cons. Also, the gay thing...I don't believe that most so-cons oppose gay marriage from a policital philsophical point of view, but rather because of what the Bible tells them. Also, our foreign policy comes to mind as having somewhat of a biblical aspect to it.

By believing the states have the "right" to tell people what to put in their bodies (drugs) as if somehow the state telling you what to put in your body is better than the federal government telling you want to do. Social conservatives would probably oppose a federal bill legalizing drugs.

Or by making the excuse the freedom is hurt by the government allowing churches to do gay marriages (if they want, it is not forced). The excuses for opposing drug legalization and gay marriage are telling proof of social conservatives shoving their religion down other people's throats.

So two different things: the war on drugs, and gay marriage.

I don't really see the war on drugs as a big part of Christian social conservatism.

The gay marriage issue is definitely one of the main lynchpins of today's Christian social conservatism. But that's not an issue where they're forcing anyone else to live any particular way. Gay people have been living together, having sexual relations, calling themselves "married," and having weddings in every state for years and years, without anybody preventing them from doing those things or punishing them for them. The only problem I have with so-called "gay marriage bans" is that people insist on calling them "bans" when they don't actually ban anything.

 

[nbhadja]

So two different things: the war on drugs, and gay marriage.

I don't really see the war on drugs as a big part of Christian social conservatism.

The gay marriage issue is definitely one of the main lynchpins of today's Christian social conservatism. But that's not an issue where they're forcing anyone else to live any particular way. Gay people have been living together, having sexual relations, calling themselves "married," and having weddings in every state for years and years, without anybody preventing them from doing those things or punishing them for them. The only problem I have with so-called "gay marriage bans" is that people insist on calling them "bans" when they don't actually ban anything.

The war on drugs is a huge issue for social conservatives, just as big if not bigger than gay marriage. It is also a perfect example of why they try to cram religion down everyone's throats. You asked for a example and you got one.

Everyone knows the drug war is a HUGE issue for social conservatives.

 

[erowe1]

The war on drugs is a huge issue for social conservatives, just as big if not bigger than gay marriage. It is also a perfect example of why they try to cram religion down everyone's throats. You asked for a example and you got one.

Everyone knows the drug war is a HUGE issue for social conservatives.

I don't know this. I get emails from the Family Research Council all the time, and I don't think I've ever seen one about the war on drugs, although it seems like every other one is about gay marriage.

The same thing goes for when I listened to James Dobson on the radio, or watched the 700 Club, or read World Magazine, or compared candidates using the scorecards of the Christian Coalition. Fighting to keep drugs illegal just doesn't seem to be on their radars.

Maybe this is one of those things that a lot of people think they know, just because it's supposedly the case that "everyone knows it."

Edit: For those who don't want to take my word for it, please try to find anything about the war on drugs in the following web pages that list the issues that are important to three major Christian right organizations today.
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/
http://www.frc.org/issues
http://www.cc.org/2011_legislative_agenda

 

[silentshout]

The marriage license has no meaning except for legal purposes. The religious ceremony is the real union, and that is all that matters.

Really? So for non-religious people who get married, it is meaningless then? I am sure many religious people wouldn't mind if the State forbade non-religious people from marrying. Just like they don't want gays to marry and how they didn't want inter-racial marriage, and so on.

I'd prefer if the state was not in the marriage business, but please. It doesn't mean that religious institutions have any authority on who marries or enters into a contract with someone else. I don't get it. If churches are allowed to bar whoever they want from marrying in their church (which is fine with me), why do they care if people get married by someone else or another institution that doesn't share their beliefs?

 

[erowe1]

I am sure many religious people wouldn't mind if the State forbade non-religious people from marrying.

What would that entail? Going around house to house and arresting people if they find a non-religious man and woman living together. You really think a lot of religious people want that?

 

[LibertyEagle]

The war on drugs is a huge issue for social conservatives, just as big if not bigger than gay marriage. It is also a perfect example of why they try to cram religion down everyone's throats. You asked for a example and you got one.

Everyone knows the drug war is a HUGE issue for social conservatives.

How do you come up with this? What does the War on Drugs have to do with religion?

 

[nbhadja]

I don't know this. I get emails from the Family Research Council all the time, and I don't think I've ever seen one about the war on drugs, although it seems like every other one is about gay marriage.

The same thing goes for when I listened to James Dobson on the radio, or watched the 700 Club, or read World Magazine, or compared candidates using the scorecards of the Christian Coalition. Fighting to keep drugs illegal just doesn't seem to be on their radars.

Maybe this is one of those things that a lot of people think they know, just because it's supposedly the case that "everyone knows it."

They why do most people in very religious states vote to keep drugs illegal? Not just the politicians but the citizens as well.

Heck we had many social conservatives on here the other day say "It was bad for Ron Paul to back that bill with Barney Frank since the conservatives will be opposed to it".

Are you really gonna deny that most republicans support the drug war? Go to hannity forums and see what they say- most support the drug war and hannity forums represents the most common type of republican today.

 

[nbhadja]

How do you come up with this? What does the War on Drugs have to do with religion?

Well it's the religious ones who oppose the legalization of drugs and their holy books oppose drugs so they want to ban it for everyone .

 

[YumYum]

If the state stays out of marriage, should men be allowed to practice polygamy? It was practiced in the Bible, God had no problem with it.

 

[erowe1]

They why do most people in very religious states vote to keep drugs illegal? Not just the politicians but the citizens as well.

Heck we had many social conservatives on here the other day say "It was bad for Ron Paul to back that bill with Barney Frank since the conservatives will be opposed to it".

Are you really gonna deny that most republicans support the drug war? Go to hannity forums and see what they say- most support the drug war and hannity forums represents the most common type of republican today.

Most people, Republican and Democrat, Christian and nonchristian, support the drug war. I don't think it's a religious issue the way gay marriage and abortion are.

But the support for the drug war is a mile wide and an inch deep. Most of these people who instinctively support the drug war, whether they're Christians or not, don't really rank it very highly in importance as an issue to them.

The reason we have the drug war isn't because the populace (religious or otherwise) actively cries out and demands it. The reason we have it is because certain other interests who represent a much smaller portion of the population have a great deal at stake in the issue, groups like pharmaceutical companies, private prisons, prosecuting attorneys, police departments, and so on.

 

[erowe1]

If the state stays out of marriage, should men be allowed to practice polygamy? It was practiced in the Bible, God had no problem with it.

I don't know if God had no problem with it. But the state shouldn't stop people from doing it.

You could have a situation where some guy had multiple wives but made explicitly monogamous marriage vows with them. In that case his actions would violate his contracts with them. So people who see the state as having a role in contract enforcement could still see a place for it there. But I assume you're talking about something where all the parties get into it with knowledge of what they were doing.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If the state stays out of marriage, should men be allowed to practice polygamy? It was practiced in the Bible, God had no problem with it.

IMO, yes-assuming all parties consent to it.

 

[YumYum]

I don't know if God had no problem with it. But the state shouldn't stop people from doing it.

You could have a situation where some guy had multiple wives but made explicitly monogamous marriage vows with them. In that case his actions would violate his contracts with them. So people who see the state as having a role in contract enforcement could still see a place for it there. But I assume you're talking about something where all the parties get into it with knowledge of what they were doing.

Why is our country, as a Christian nation, opposed to polygamy? The Mormons practiced it up until the early 1890's with no problems. It was a Christian movement that put pressure on our federal government to crack down on the Mormons to end polygamy. I guess my question is: Why are Christians against polygamy?

 

[erowe1]

Why is our country, as a Christian nation, opposed to polygamy? The Mormons practiced it up until the early 1890's with no problems. It was a Christian movement that put pressure on our federal government to crack down on the Mormons to end polygamy. I guess my question is: Why are Christians against polygamy?

There are several arguments against polygamy, both from the Bible and from reason. I don't think the Bible ever does explicitly forbid it. But it does have several negative statements about it. It was prohibited to the king of Israel (of course all the kings did it, but they weren't supposed to). It is also prohibited to church elders in 1 Timothy and Titus. I also think that it would be hard to reconcile polygamy with a lot of passages that are primarily directed against adultery. The places in the Bible you're talking about that describe polygamous marriages are narratives that generally don't say anything either good or bad about them, just that they happened. And I think you could make a good case that a lot of those narratives illustrate ways that polygamy resulted in problems for those who practiced it.

Also, monogamy fits with a population in which the number of men and the number of women are nearly equal. If we take as a given that most people want to get married, and probably ought to get married (which I don't mean to say has to be the case, but for many Christians that's part of it), then if you had a population with roughly equal numbers of men and women, and 90% of the people wanted to get married, and the men had an average of 2 wives each, that would only allow for 45% of the men to get married by the time 90% of the women were taken. I think it's the case that polygamy tends to happen in situations where something like war has caused there to be much fewer men than women. When there are extenuating circumstances like that, I'm honestly not sure if I could say that it's definitely wrong, even though I thing it normally is.

 

[erowe1]

Go to hannity forums and see what they say- most support the drug war and hannity forums represents the most common type of republican today.

If you're looking for a website that exemplifies social conservatism as an expression of Christianity, do you really think the Hannity forums are a better example than the ones I gave in post #27?

 

[amy31416]

I come across this charge a lot. But I haven't seen much evidence for it. Can you give an example?

Pretty much any law having something to do with sex, drugs, entertainment and music.

Specific examples:

prostitution
drug war
censorship of music, movies, television, news, etc.

There's also the big fearmongering movement about Sharia law, while promoting the 10 commandments in public courts. Not saying that I think it's all bad or even avoidable, but it's certainly there. It's a nanny-state mindset to demand that the gov't censor what your children see on TV...