Libertarianism? Lets play devils advocate...

A good definition of a Libertarian is ...... a social liberal, a fiscal conservative to the extreme, and an isolationist. These 3 things characterize Paul. These 3 things are exactly why he has no widespread appeal and he is not electable. IMO, Paul knew he could never run as a "true" Libertarian, so he (wisely, in his estimation) chose to hide behind the skirts of the Republican Party.
 
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Paul is most certainly an isolationist .... as shown by his own words and campaign platform. For that and many other reasons, he is seen as unstable. He is simply Ross Perot, Jr., and he will be met with the same political fate as Ross .....
 
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Paul is most certainly an isolationist .... as shown by his own words and campaign platform. For that and many other reasons, he is seen as unstable. He is simply Ross Perot, Jr., and he will be met with the same political fate as Ross .....

Actually, you are incorrect. Why is it that you think he is an isolationist? Because he doesn't believe our tax payer money should be given to foreign countries as foreign aid? Because he doesn't believe our government should invade, overthrow and occupy foreign countries who did not attack us, nor posed an eminent threat? Or, is it because he believes our country should remain sovereign?

Nevermind the fact that he thinks we should talk to all nations, be friends and trade with them.

So, I'm back to where I began.... exactly why do you believe Paul is an isolationist? Please be specific.
 
Whether or not you "like it or feel good about it", this nation IS at war. I have one son as a Corporal in the Marines and in his second Iraq deployment. My other son is in the Navy and currently in the Persian Gulf. They are serving so that you and your candidate ..... misguided though you are .... have the right to live peaceably and lawfully.

Shills like Paul and Perot have no comprehension as to what is going on overseas, nor does Paul have any idea how his isolationist views would damage this country .... and those countries we have as allies.

It is fallacy to assume this country can retreat to our own borders in this day and age and keep our heads in the international sands .....
 
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Whether or not you "like it or feel good about it", this nation IS at war. I have one son as a Corporal in the Marines and in his second Iraq deployment. My other son in in the Navy and currently in the Persian Gulf. They are serving so that you and your candidate ..... misguided though you are .... have the right to live peaceably and lawfully.

Shills like Paul and Perot have no comprehension as to what is going on overseas, nor does Paul have any idea how his isolationist views would damage this country .... and those countries we have as allies.

It is fallacy to assume this country can retreat to our own borders in this day and age and keep our heads in the international sands .....

Ah, so the inner neocon emerges. Before, it seemed possible that you were perhaps interested in Ron Paul but not yet set on him (and critical of perceived "threats" to him among his own supporter base), but now it's clear what your purpose here is.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but - you still have not given any clear reasons why Ron Paul should be considered isolationist, muchless a "shill" - who is he a shill for? Or are you just lashing out emotionally because you cannot stand anyone who opposes your worldview? All you've given are baseless assertions that Paul and Perot (how is Perot involved?) have "no comprehension" as to what is going on overseas. Perhaps you should consider whether you yourself have "no comprehension" as to what is going on overseas. Do you not think you should consider whether Ron Paul has done far more research on this subject than you or any of your favored candidates? Check out his 1984 farewell speech to Congress: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul433.html
In it, he criticizes our inconsistent foreign policy, which is involved in such things as "staying neutral" by funding both sides of a civil war (causing both sides to hate us). It's a good read, and unless you're completely closed-minded, I think it might open you up to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the foreign policy of the United States throughout the past century has been a negative and destructive force in the world.
 
Every other country on the planet is "isolationist" when compared to the United States.

Your sons serving in the military is an honorable thing, but if you really think that without this war we'd suddenly lose our right to live "peacefully and lawfully" you are quite delusional.

Here is what would happen to me and every other person on this board if your sons came home.................pretty much the same thing that's happening now except our economy would be better off for it.

I'm tired of the shawn hannity responses to the war. "There fighting for our freedom!" No there not. If they were defending my freedom they'd be over here. If they were defending my freedoms, I'd acutually lose them if they came home.

The truth is, if the troops came home, My freedoms would be exactly the same.
 
Every other country on the planet is "isolationist" when compared to the United States.

Your sons serving in the military is an honorable thing, but if you really think that without this war we'd suddenly lose our right to live "peacefully and lawfully" you are quite delusional.

Here is what would happen to me and every other person on this board if your sons came home.................pretty much the same thing that's happening now except our economy would be better off for it.

I'm tired of the shawn hannity responses to the war. "There fighting for our freedom!" No there not. If they were defending my freedom they'd be over here. If they were defending my freedoms, I'd acutually lose them if they came home.

The truth is, if the troops came home, My freedoms would be exactly the same.

Technically speaking, your freedoms would probably be better, for several reasons...
1.) We'd actually have a national defense. We don't right now...we're completely vulnerable to outside attack (both conventional attack and in terms of people being able to easily cross our open borders), notwithstanding our natural defenses.
2.) Anyone who actually brought us home would also probably have a sensible policy towards our rights in the first place. Hannity fans keep saying "they hate us for our freedoms," so ironically, they decide to surrender each and every one of those rights for the sake of "national security."
 
You have your head in the sand if you think we are fighting the same kind of enemies we did years ago. This is a new age and scenario ..... and you are simply sharing the same isolationist views of your candidate.

Let me guess ..... "some" of you actually believe Roosevelt goaded Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor????
 
You have your head in the sand if you think we are fighting the same kind of enemies we did years ago. This is a new age and scenario ..... and you are simply sharing the same isolationist views of your candidate.

Let me guess ..... "some" of you actually believe Roosevelt goaded Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor????

Once again, you have not explained your accusation of "isolationism" - you've merely repeated the same baseless assertion. Furthermore, you're using the same "new age and scenario" rhetoric that Sean Hannity does, and you're attacking someone who's done far more research on this subject than you have (Ron Paul). This is indeed a "new age" - we are creating our enemies, and if we continue to follow the same policies, we will continue to create our enemies.

Of course, you don't want to actually participate in a rational debate, do you? You'd rather conflate a rational, cause-and-effect worldview with a straw-man argument, as is your habit (referring to your last comment about Pearl Harbor).
 
Originally Posted by Beaglelover
Let me guess ..... "some" of you actually believe Roosevelt goaded Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor????

Well yes, here too. ...and WW1, and Gulf of Tonkin (North Vietnamese torpedo boats launched an "unprovoked attack", or not). That goading list is very, very long. Interesting that you don't know of this ...or you just don't believe it.

I'd like to add the fine "art" of using class envy and imaginary high tax rates as a government operated "equalizer" to 'help' the poor and middle class while the Creature From Jekyll Island sucks out the very substance of the poor and middle class and is the root cause for all the wars in the Middle East (required to protect the inflated USD's link to all oil purchases).

Since RP gets contributions from individuals serving in the military (more than all the other candidates get combined)... Did your family members (that have or are serving in the military) make contributions to Ron Paul too? (you can look 'em up via the FEC website without confronting or goading them directly.)

I'd like to see the faces of your extended family as they are gathered 'round the Thanks Giving dinner table (listening to you go on and on about all the virtues of Global Holy War and our glorious government).

I bet you have never noticed their faces/reactions. Maybe you should look / ask, or look into some of those "common knowledge facts" and goading issues on your own, in private.

BTW - I like Beagles too, but I think that everything the government touches turns to poo poo.

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire; a dangerous servant and a terrible master." -- George Washington
 
Sorry, but anarchy coupled with isolationalism isn't gonna work. Paul is a self-professing isolationist as well as a far right fiscal conservative and a social liberal. That platform has never worked for anyone seeking the High Office ..... ala Ross Perot ..... ala Ed Clark .... ala Wayne Allyn Root .... need I go on?????

The reality is that IF the vast majority of American voters wanted such radical politics in the Oval Office, then their voices would have been heard .... and loudly. Surely you folks must know by now that Paul has seen the writing on the wall and he is slowly but surely disengaging himself from this campaign. I am genuinely sorry for the Paul backers, but your candidate is not electable ..... either for the Presidency and maybe not for his current office.

All that is lacking is the formal announcement and the tears.
 
Here is some truth to the matter .....

http://www.hinzsightreport.com/kntr/ken-052007.html

"Now to his non-intervention platform. Paul in his comments at the debate stated that the attack on September 11 was due to interventionist policies of The United States and added to this ten years of , "bombing Iraq, " after the first Gulf War. He believes that we should keep our troops within our borders and stop intervening in the affairs of countries around the world.

His contention that 9/11 was a result of anger that Islamic fanatics have toward The United States due to our intervention in Middle East affairs is also based in part on the Fatwa manifesto that was given by Usama Bin Laden in 1998. He also bases his theory on CIA evaluation that US policy in the Middle East and other areas of the world has a, "blow back, "effect, which means that out intervention in certain areas could have an adverse effect on the US by in sighting anger.

Paul's theory on the , "blow back, " effect concerning 9/11 finds one major flaw in its premise setting aside the contention that we not Al Qaeda are at fault for the attacks. His theory does not take into account the fanaticism of radical Islam.

Radicals like bin Laden and other leaders in this Jihad against The United States are much smarter that they are given credit. They know the American mind set much more than we know and understand theirs. They realize that by claiming that US interventionist policy is the cause for their anger and attacks against us will strike a note in America and especially those who see this country as the worlds, "big bully."

This is the cord that has stricken Paul and those who agree with him. What they and many do not understand or accept is the religious fanaticism that actually and factually drives Islamic radicals and especially their hatred for the US and our people. This hatred is not for our policies it is because we do not embrace their form of Islam therefore we are Infidels who deserve death and it is their holy duty to see to it that we die and our way of life no longer exists.

The United States is also the major obstacle both in our power and influence to preventing Islamic radicals from converting and controlling the world as they do many areas in the Middle East. Our presence in that region is a constant reminder of the power of the Infidel and of our disobedience to Allah and their form of Islam. This religious fanaticism from radical Islam drives their Jihad and promotes their fighting and attacks which includes 9/11.

Paul's contention that 9/11 was a result of US interventionist policy fails the historical test also. If one believes that 9/11 was a result of US intervention and brought on by The United States then in the same context one must conclude that Pearl Harbor was a result of our own intervention.

Prior to the attack of December 1941, United States policy had us intervening in Far East countries like the Philippines and China as a stop gap for Japanese expansion. We also had a major oil embargo against Japan which hampered the country who was totally dependent on imported oil. Other sanctions were also in effect against Japan.

The Japanese claimed that our policies are the reason for the attack on Pearl Harbor and Japans declaration of war against The United States. It is historically accepted that US policies were not the blame for the attack and tat it was then and still now accepted as an unprovoked attack.

9/11 likewise was an unprovoked attack against The United States. We in 1941 and today have the eternal right to defend our self as a Nation when attacked and that is why we went to war and why we fight the Islamic radicals today in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Additionally looking at the , "interventionist," policy of The United States, the question must be asked in light of Ron Paul's non-intervention ideas "how much different would the world be today if we had not intervened?"

Pre-WWII Europe for example survived greatly because of US intervention assistance to Great Britain with supplies and money to fight Hitler. We then intervened in the war not because we were attacked but because it was the right thing to do and victory was the result. A victory that would not have been possible were it not for US intervention.

Countless countries throughout the world are saved from starvation and genocide under brutal dictators by US intervention. In a very real sense The United States intervention feeds most of the third world countries. Our intervention has prevented ecological and genocide disasters.

As the worlds lone superpower we have a great responsibility to the world and we take that responsibility seriously. Does it have its draw backs ? Sure our intervention does anger some but the positive far our weighs the negative and the good exceeds the bad tremendously.

Isolationism and non-intervention does not make Ron Paul a conservative as many suggest but a naive politician who would take The United States backwards and more vulnerable to attack in a world that has grown and become exceedingly more dangerous in the years before our superpower status. Paul's ideas are dangerous especially in a post 9/11 world and in light of the many countries who depend on our support and our strength for their defense."
 
Sorry, but anarchy coupled with isolationalism isn't gonna work. Paul is a self-professing isolationist as well as a far right fiscal conservative and a social liberal. That platform has never worked for anyone seeking the High Office ..... ala Ross Perot ..... ala Ed Clark .... ala Wayne Allyn Root .... need I go on?????

The reality is that IF the vast majority of American voters wanted such radical politics in the Oval Office, then their voices would have been heard .... and loudly. Surely you folks must know by now that Paul has seen the writing on the wall and he is slowly but surely disengaging himself from this campaign. I am genuinely sorry for the Paul backers, but your candidate is not electable ..... either for the Presidency and maybe not for his current office.

All that is lacking is the formal announcement and the tears.

You cannot call him an anarchist, nor can you call him an isolationist. That is complete and utter bullshit. If you actually researched his platform rather than feeding your confirmation bias, you might actually realize that his platform is identical to the founding principles of liberty.

The reality is that most Americans do not know what they want, because they do not do any research, and they only believe what they see on television. This is why they do not understand his message or know about it. Ron Paul's platform is only radical in the sense that it diverges from the perversion of the original establishment.
 
Research will show that Paul's platform has little resemblance to "the founding principles of liberty". Can you honestly look yourself in the face and not see the distortion of that view from his supporters???

Also, it is the epitomy of ignorance to say that since Paul is not electable, that is the fault of an "ignorant" American public!!! I believe the majority of the American people ARE far better educated in this process than you are giving them credit for ..... and it is THAT informed opinion that prohibits Paul from sitting in the Oval Office ..... or, maybe even winning reelection to his current office.
 
Beaglelover - Your obsession with 9/11 is not evidence that Paul is an isolationist. You merely spewed some misguided information on the topic of the 9/11 terrorist attack. But since you've changed the topic, let me address it. First, we should listen to our enemies. Martin Luther King, Jr. said that God would say "America you are arrogant, you do not need to be the policeman of the world." Remember that Paul does not advocate non-interventionism is all cases. He understands that it was lawful to go to war because one, like you said it was an unprovoked attack, and two, we actually declared war. Today we are just walking around in Iraq, unrelated to terrorism until we went there, and not preventing terrorism. RP supports a strong national defense, not a weak meandering, aimless offense. Please go back to the Mitt Romney forums.
 
Research will show that Paul's platform has little resemblance to "the founding principles of liberty". Can you honestly look yourself in the face and not see the distortion of that view from his supporters???

Also, it is the epitomy of ignorance to say that since Paul is not electable, that is the fault of an "ignorant" American public!!! I believe the majority of the American people ARE far better educated in this process than you are giving them credit for ..... and it is THAT informed opinion that prohibits Paul from sitting in the Oval Office ..... or, maybe even winning reelection to his current office.

First give one example of Ron Paul's platform that does not promote liberty in the context of respect for the Constitution and the law.

I do not think Ron Paul is unelectable. I think he would be if the majority of people heard his message, which most haven't because of the media blackout. I am not "blaming" America for it. However, it is very unfortunate that Ron Paul's message has barely been heard. I gave a Ron Paul DVD to a person who had heard of Hillary, Obama, McCain, Romney and the rest of the "mainstream" candidates, but was unsure of their politics. She saw the DVD and was so happy to hear a presidential candidate who actualy made sense. If you feel so strongly that Ron Paul is such a horrible politician, and would make a horrible president, and that his supporters are misguided ninnies, than maybe you should vent elsewhere.
 
Thanks Joe. ...I agree, or at least I thought so.

BeagleLover, please go on... It's interesting how you faithfully justify your complete faith in Gubermint by quoting a like minded source opposing the theory of goading other nations. You must have attended our mandatory youth propaganda camps for years and years to be such a single minded patriot.

What are your views on Hitler's political and power techniques, especially in education and war propaganda? I wonder how someone (Hitler) could be so effective, so popular, and so utterly wrong and immoral, all at the same time! Is hyperinflation and dictatorship now the right course for the USA? We seem to only be lacking "the ovens" at this point in this nation's decent into madness.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking Ron Paul is not really an isolationist at all, and that following the US Constitution is a big mistake in these modern "anti-liberty" times of police state preparations for total world domination. Will Obama rescue us all?

Please enlighten me.
 
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