Libertarian Purists: Libertarian on Everything - Except Liberty

TheGrinch

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A great read on how we can bridge gaps, find agreement, debate the rest and make progress, rather than simply taking a "my way or the highway point-of-view:

http://benswann.com/libertarian-purists-libertarian-on-everything-except-liberty/

Now before anyone goes on the defensive, this is just a generalization and not an attack on all purists. However, no matter whether this describes you or not, this is an excellent lesson for us all to remember, summed up perfectly at the end:

"Surely, libertarians will have the best chance of turning our present “libertarian moment” into a sweeping libertarian movement if we pursue liberty with the humility, civility and tolerance of diversity with which we are seeking to replace the arrogance, corruption and authoritarianism that infect our politics today."
 
Like I've said many times, you don't change minds or make progress by acting morally superior and being rigidly uncompromising in a world filled with different views.

You change minds by finding common ground and leading them to your way of thinking, while maintaining a humilty that other people's beliefs aren't less valid than your own just because you disagree with them.
 
This article started out with quite a bit of promise. I particularly liked this part...

Both groups are so sure of their own rightness that they won’t even celebrate the attempt of their fellows to pursue a different path to the same end, just in case their ability to predict the future might be imperfect and/or their shared goals might benefit from multiple approaches by people with different experiences and perspectives.

...as this is a notion I've come to appreciate, and have for some time. It's just so... libertarian. Let people pursue what they prefer for the sake of liberty. Free market of ideas and action. It's totally cohesive with the philosophy.

Unfortunately, after this point, the article devolves into the very things it seems to be attacking, and ultimately becomes little more than an ironic tirade, complete with pompous use of words to feign intelligence.

First, the author recognizes the inherent humility that accompanies libertarian thought...

Since it rests on the notion that one human being cannot know what is best for another – or at least cannot know it better than the other person, himself, it is an essentially humble philosophy in disposition and an essentially tolerant philosophy in prescription.

And then proceeds to invoke gross generalizations that couldn't possibly be attributed to any sizable contingent of libertarianism in their entirety, and label these libertarians, or rather their behavior, as decidedly non humble, non tolerant, non civil--reading between the lines, basically calling an arbitrarily defined brand of libertarianism non-libertarian, and problematic. This is rather curious seeing as how the article proceeds to take issue with such 'put downs':

but will happily put you down should you disagree about how best to make everyone free to think and do as they please.

In short, the author seems to be taking issue with one brand of libertarianism telling another brand what is best, why they're wrong, and so on, but ultimately seems to be doing exactly that in the article. This doesn't strike me as the humble, tolerant, or civil attitude that the author seems to want to advocate. Moreover, the author seems to almost completely ignore the other brand of libertarianism, as those libertarians are above reproach by comparison--to me this just betrays bias. In my experience, both sides, as presented by the author, are guilty of this kind of incivility, intolerance, and arrogance because these are qualities sometimes displayed by people; they're not qualities exclusive to some arbitrary brand of libertarianism, as the author seems to believe. That being said, I also don't think that makes anyone any less of a libertarian, necessarily.

I do agree that it would be nice to see a greater degree of tolerance to foster the aforementioned free market of action and ideas.

In any case, I don't necessarily consider this butting of heads to be such a negative thing, as the author seems to. Hammering out competing philosophy with untiring rigor is one of our greatest assets, as an overall ideology, IMO. Can discussions get heated, produce incivility, and even become inflammatory from time to time? Sure, but is that not to be expected when passions collide? If we all just kind of agreed to disagree, and didn't butt heads from time to time, I'd have to question just how much we really care, quite frankly. If we didn't challenge and question each other and our competing perspectives and philosophies, we could hardly claim to be an intellectual movement, no? If we were as intolerant, uncivil, and arrogant as the author would make us out to be, surely we would not bother arguing with each other and entertaining different perspectives, arguments, and philosophies from our own. Besides, if some incivility here and there is among our most significant problems, I'd say that's probably a good thing. Look at the bright side, at least that incivility isn't translating into violence--now that would be a significant problem, indeed. So where the author sees flaw, I tend to see promise, personally.
 
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The only people who try to keep others of us out of their meetings or gatherings, or even discussions in certain areas of certain forums (any Rand, or voting in general, criticism), are the minarchists. The "purists" aren't using any coercion to keep minarchists out of meetings, gatherings, or discussions. Anarchists have no problem with minarchists showing up to our events or voicing their opinions (they do at every one of them)...it's the minimalist state socialists (the capitalists who want small government) who try to ignore, alienate, or discourage the "purists" (those who want a pure free market society, not minimalist state socialism). The "purists" just point out the bullshit being spewed as rationalizations for not taking the ideas of liberty, free markets, property rights, free expression, free association ,etc., etc., etc. to their logical conclusions.

One side claims to want diversity and tolerance while actively trying to shoo away anarchists. The other side (anarchists) don't shoo anyone away, but just insist on calling out bullshit arguments for immorality when we hear them.

Which is really intolerant or against diversity?

The only people who think purism in libertarianism is bad are the people who aren't taking libertarianism to its logical conclusions (and therefore aren't taking it completely seriously). This cognitive dissonance and lack of consistent logic, and therefore ethics, leads to them to actively trying to hide anarchists away from public eyes by not associating themselves with us (even though we popularized the word "libertarian" after the word "anarchist" was banned in print), actively seeking to not invite us places, marginalize our ideas via hyperbole or other logical missteps, and look at us like the black sheep of the liberty family.

I don't know of a case in this movement where anarchists have said "no minarchists allowed"...but I know of several cases where minarchists said "no anarchists allowed - or if you come, you can't talk about anarchism as we suck-off the state for a few hours" (of course, that's a paraphrase).

This is something libertarianism has to come to terms with; do we want to grow our movement fastest by misrepresenting the philosophy or philosophies therein via the exclusion of its founding faction (and its intellectual foundation)? Or do we want to forego a bit of speed in our race to grow the number of people who embrace these ideas in favor of intellectual honesty, the market of ideas, and embracing the founders and backbone of our movement?

The "purists" founded libertarianism, and they are the suppliers of its intellectual ammunition. The "purists" aren't excluding anyone...we're just calling people out on their bullshit and inconsistencies. All the exclusion and intolerance is coming from the non-purists. Calling someone out for logical or ethical or economic inconsistencies doesn't exclude them. It may upset them, but truth is often painful. Shall we just allow people to live in the bliss of their ignorance when it victimizes innocents to do so? I don't think so.

If someone wants anarchists to keep quiet, then start another movement. Anyone can claim to be a dog or cat, or libertarian for that matter...but it doesn't make it so, just because they claim it. We won't exclude people or tell them to stop calling themselves libertarian, but we will explain to them why their ideas about limited government aren't consistent with reason, logic, and therefore ethics in libertarianism. They can keep those ideas if they like...but if we ever get to a small government they want, they will quickly find the anarchist "purists" who were once their allies will then be their bitter enemies.

Hence violent revolution for anarchists is garbage and useless. You'll allow us to help you win the revolution, and then when its time for us to part ways on whether a new state should be set up to legalize criminality like extortion and murder for some tiny minority parasitical ruling class, you'll label us enemies of the new state and have us tortured, murdered, blackballed, kidnapped, and/or deported. That's the outcome historically every time we aid minarchists or any other form of revolutionary. They turn on us as soon as its a choice between liberty and free markets, or the state. They value minimalist (or worse) state socialism too much to give up socialization, and therefore subsidization by the unwilling, of roads, defense, police, and law (among other things, depending on how minimalist their state socialism is).

We're keenly aware that our allies today will likely be our enemies when the moment of truth comes and it really counts. But it won't be us excluding anyone. We simply rather grow more slowly and sustainably, rather than bullshit or keep others from facing arguments that take things to their logical (and therefore ethical) conclusions. The latter will grow faster and win elections quicker, but it's not sustainable. The watered down libertarian movement will then elect watered down libertarian politicians, and therefore they will make statist errors which will be rightfully blamed on them, turn people off to libertarianism, and set us back. It's like the Business Cycle...minarchists want to expand the money supply (libertarian voting base) as quickly as possible with no regard to the bubble effect it causes. The anarchists want to expand the money supply (libertarian voting base) only as fast as the market (philosophical spectrum of the masses) dictates, in order to avoid a bubble. Minarchists would be happy to bullshit people into voting for libertarian candidates as long as they won more seats (see Rand's so-called stealth strategy). Anarchists don't focus on voting totals (and in some cases, voting at all)...we focus on changing hearts and minds of the masses to libertarian philosophy (a 2nd Enlightenment). We'll get to the higher vote totals as a result of that, and it won't be a political bubble ready to burst.

Mark my words: you'll win more and faster your way...but the bubble will burst and the ebb and flow of seats will come, as it does for the other full of shit ideologies already dominating politics. Our way is more sustainable, has less severe swings in the ebb and flow of seats, and will take longer but gain more long term traction. Why? Because if you truly change minds to libertarian philosophy, even when they are incapable of taking their newly embraced ideas to their logical (and ethical) conclusions, then the ebb and flow of voting patterns are less volatile. People don't usually convert away from libertarianism IF they come to it honestly and are exposed to the more radical elements who preach the "pure" form of the philosophy (even if they end up falling short of agreeing with us). It's the radical element the moderates seek to temper themselves against...and without it being purely expressed, they will temper their ideas on less radical ideas, be less radical themselves therefore, and thereby less attached to the ideas they claim to embrace. The level to which they are convinced by, and committed to, the movement will be less when they are bullshitted or sheltered, which makes them less ideologically attached to the actual tenants of the philosophy. If the level of convincing and committal is high enough, via exposure to the most radical and truthful, and the most moderate alike, and allowing these ideas to take root as radical, moderate, or something between, then the person is unlikely to abandon libertarianism in the future.

Every asshole I've ever met who said he "used to be a libertarian" didn't read many libertarian authors, never read anarchists in depth, and never really was a libertarian (other than in label) to begin with. Those who come to the philosophy honestly, through debate and research, trial and error, open-mindedness and time, never leave it...it's got too much truth to abandon it. Anyone with a conscience can't be privy to the logical, and therefore ethical, truth in libertarian thought, and then simply walk away from it in favor of everything we stand against. It's nearly impossible to make such a reverse-conversion (reversion). But if one doesn't come to libertarianism the right way, then of course they can take it or leave it anytime it's convenient for them personally.

Faux or half-assed libertarians will not stay libertarians. They can't become libertarian permanently if it is only because of libertarianism's fashionable nature (which is it becoming fashionable on campuses), popularity (it is gaining), momentum (which we have), etc. You can't pretend to be a libertarian, for example, to get a girl, and then think that's sufficient to be one for life. You have to delve into the ideas, and eventually wade into the deep end of the intellectual pool to temper your own ideas. This is done by not hiding radical ideas, but effectively arguing them down (you can't say you swam in the Knowledge Pool just by dipping your toes in the shallow end). If you can do this to the person's satisfaction, then they will be a minarchist, but dedicated to the cause we all share (until we get to a minimalist state anyways)...or they may, in minority, take those radical ideas as better arguments, more logical and thereby ethical, and become anarchists. Either way, they aren't going to become a libertarian that way...only to vote for neocons and progressives a few election cycles later.

Intolerance is not a calling out of bad ideas (no matter how uncomfortable it makes you). Intolerance is exclusion. And even if you see "purists" (some, not all, as you said, OP) as "intolerant", if their "intolerance" for non-purist ideas doesn't result in coercion, who in their right mind as a libertarian would give a shit?

Long story, short: Minarchists calling anarchists intolerant seems to me to be the pot calling the kettle black.
 
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"Purism" refers to the epistemoloy - not the politics!

I must be a lot worse of a writer than I thought. I was at pains throughout this article to make it clear that the problem was not with any particular idea /definition/brand of libertarianism, but with the way people use their own certainty against others

You say

In short, the author seems to be taking issue with one brand of libertarianism telling another brand what is best, why they're wrong, and so on, but ultimately seems to be doing exactly that in the article. This doesn't strike me as the humble, tolerant, or civil attitude that the author seems to want to advocate. Moreover, the author seems to almost completely ignore the other brand of libertarianism, as those libertarians are above reproach by comparison--to me this just betrays bias. In my experience, both sides, as presented by the author, are guilty of this kind of incivility, intolerance, and arrogance because these are qualities sometimes displayed by people; they're not qualities exclusive to some arbitrary brand of libertarianism, as the author seems to believe. That being said, I also don't think that makes anyone any less of a libertarian, necessarily.

Against this, I wrote:

"Per the article linked above, for example, there are those who insist that those who would pursue liberty within the political duopoly – usually by trying to change the Republican party from within – are naïve. On the other hand, there are those who believe that those who would try to go outside the duopoly to do so are naïve. Both groups are so sure of their own rightness that they won’t even celebrate the attempt of their fellows to pursue a different path to the same end, just in case their ability to predict the future might be imperfect and/or their shared goals might benefit from multiple approaches by people with different experiences and perspectives."

AND

"Libertarian purists are the people who see any agreement to reduce an infringement of liberty as “selling out” if it does not eliminate that infringement altogether; these are the people who commit the floccinaucinihilipilification of all liberty-promoting actions of a politician just because that politician is actually willing to play politics and even make concessions to circumstance to stay in the game so that he can do any good at all; these are the people who see all compromise as proof of a lack of values – or of virtue; they see the choosing of battles as proof of a lack of commitment to the war rather than tactics for winning it; these are the people who won’t listen to an idea – or even consider a quotation – from someone they have decided isn’t a “real libertarian” even if that someone has special experience of the issue of which they speak; these are the people who will never admit a tension between libertarian means and libertarian ends. In short, these are people who insist that everyone should be free to think and do as they please – but will happily put you down should you disagree about how best to make everyone free to think and do as they please."

... all of which is nothing to do with any particular brand of libertarianism at all, but with the dogmatism with which any brand of libertarianism can be held. It doesn't matter what you perceive to be "true libertarianism" or "the right view".

AND

"None of this is to say there is necessarily a problem with what these purists believe. In as much as these are better-than-normally informed lovers of liberty, there usually isn’t. The problem, rather, concerns the way they believe it: it is epistemic. One can’t identify a purist from the content of his beliefs; one can’t even identify him by looking at how he regards contrary beliefs: rather, he is identified by how he treats fellow liberty advocates who hold different beliefs."

... which is, if I understand what you wrote correctly, a clear refutation of the point you claim the article to be making.

In fact, the next two paragraphs are also unrelated to any particular brand of libertarianism.

And then the following one, too.

"The exercise of freedom, of course, depends on freedom of thought – the freedom to explore the world, physically and intellectually, and then, based on what you find, to form ideas, to change those ideas, to grow and to evolve. To insist on a politics of liberty, and therefore of tolerance, without tolerating others’ approaches to promoting just such a politics, is to falsify one’s philosophy – and to justify the skepticism of all those who want nothing to do with a libertarianism that lacks the very civility in which it puts so much store."

In short, this is all about how we dis/respect others who haven't reached the same conclusions we have reached. It's not about making one set of conclusions right or wrong.

Finally, the article makes no claim to be talking about all libertarians... just the ones to whom the article refers :) ... because the attitude of more-libertarian/correct-than-though can do dis-prorportionate harm to our achieving ends that we pretty much all agree about.

Thanks
 
Please see my reply elsewhere on this thread. This article is not a defense of minarchism or any other brand of libertarianism. It is a call for tolerance,civility and humility by all parties. There are as many purist minarchists as there are purist anarchists. The article says over again that the problem is not with what anyone believes - but with how people treat others with whim they disagree.

The article categorically states that the problem is epistemic.

Maybe you'd prefer the word "dogmatist". But I chose not to use that word because it would be derogatory...
 
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Please see my reply elsewhere on this thread. This article is not a defense of minarchism or any other brand of libertarianism. It is a call for tolerance,civility and humility by all parties. There are as many purist minarchists as there are purist anarchists. The article says over again that the problem is not with what anyone believes - but with how people treat others with whim they disagree.

The article categorically states that the problem is epistemic.

Maybe you'd prefer the word "dogmatist". But I chose not to use that word because it would be derogatory...

I've been arguing this for 2 years now.

If I want to stay in the GOP, I should have the *liberty* to do so. I don't try to talk the Libertarians into my camp, I allow them the *liberty* to stay in a 3rd party. I disagree of course, but I don't argue and shout how stupid they are. OTOH, I can't tell you how many condescending remarks I get for not moving to the 3rd party! Not all, I have plenty of L friends who are respectful.

But some? Good grief, they preach to the choir all day long in hopes to change others.

Want to know a secret? The *ONLY* person you have control over is yourself. So how best do you hedge your pursuits using that knowledge?
 
Against this, I wrote:

"Per the article linked above, for example, there are those who insist that those who would pursue liberty within the political duopoly – usually by trying to change the Republican party from within – are naïve. On the other hand, there are those who believe that those who would try to go outside the duopoly to do so are naïve. Both groups are so sure of their own rightness that they won’t even celebrate the attempt of their fellows to pursue a different path to the same end, just in case their ability to predict the future might be imperfect and/or their shared goals might benefit from multiple approaches by people with different experiences and perspectives."

Yes, I took notice of this. This is where you begin to draw a distinction between two brands, if you will, of libertarians. In general, this is a fair distinction to make. It seemed as though you would then proceed to level a critique, and point out the causes of the intolerance being discussed from either side. However, it seems as though the former was the only brand given any negative attention beyond this paragraph.

"Libertarian purists are the people who see any agreement to reduce an infringement of liberty as “selling out” if it does not eliminate that infringement altogether; these are the people who commit the floccinaucinihilipilification of all liberty-promoting actions of a politician just because that politician is actually willing to play politics and even make concessions to circumstance to stay in the game so that he can do any good at all; these are the people who see all compromise as proof of a lack of values – or of virtue; they see the choosing of battles as proof of a lack of commitment to the war rather than tactics for winning it; these are the people who won’t listen to an idea – or even consider a quotation – from someone they have decided isn’t a “real libertarian” even if that someone has special experience of the issue of which they speak; these are the people who will never admit a tension between libertarian means and libertarian ends. In short, these are people who insist that everyone should be free to think and do as they please – but will happily put you down should you disagree about how best to make everyone free to think and do as they please."

... all of which is nothing to do with any particular brand of libertarianism at all, but with the dogmatism with which any brand of libertarianism can be held. It doesn't matter what you perceive to be "true libertarianism" or "the right view".

I'm sorry, but I simply find it difficult to believe you. Before I made my initial post, I read the article over three times, to make sure I wasn't projecting too much into it--I wanted to give it as fair as a shake as I could manage. The language used here seems to very much be indicative of a preference, or bias, and very much exclusively directed toward the first brand of libertarianism you distinguished above. You repeatedly make a point of characterizing this brand of libertarianism by its disapproval, or criticism of politically focused action, the political process, and politicians--this is a very readily understood distinction within the overall umbrella of libertarianism, one that you probably aren't ignorant of. This along with the use of 'purist'--which is often used to connote similar such associations and characterization--in the context of the rest of the article, as well as more regularly understood distinctions between particular brands of libertarianism, and it becomes a bit difficult to buy into the idea that this wasn't directed at any particular brand of libertarianism, as you claim.

And thus my perception of irony, and criticism of the article.

"None of this is to say there is necessarily a problem with what these purists believe. In as much as these are better-than-normally informed lovers of liberty, there usually isn’t. The problem, rather, concerns the way they believe it: it is epistemic. One can’t identify a purist from the content of his beliefs; one can’t even identify him by looking at how he regards contrary beliefs: rather, he is identified by how he treats fellow liberty advocates who hold different beliefs."

I believe I made reference to this point in my initial post where I said, 'or rather their behavior'. I might have been less convinced that you were targeting any particular brand of libertarianism if you hadn't spent so much time disparaging the character of these sorts of libertarians in the process of making a point to distinguish them. Now, I understand you seem to feel I'm totally misinterpreting what you've written, and maybe I am totally off base, but this was my impression, nevertheless.

In short, this is all about how we dis/respect others who haven't reached the same conclusions we have reached. It's not about making one set of conclusions right or wrong.

This I can understand, and in some portions of your article, this does seem to be the case. However, as mentioned above, in other portions it doesn't seem like this is the case. In those latter cases, it seemed more like an attack of one brand and a rather roundabout defense of another. And these such cases tend to color the tone of the rest of the article to one degree or another, unfortunately. If it is as you say, and I've simply read too much into your article, then that's that, I suppose. But it doesn't seem like I am alone in my observations, so perhaps they aren't as much of a stretch, after all.
 
One can’t identify a purist from the content of his beliefs; one can’t even identify him by looking at how he regards contrary beliefs: rather, he is identified by how he treats fellow liberty advocates who hold different beliefs.

This strikes me as an arbitrary redefinition of "purist" to suit the author's needs. Nothing wrong with jargon, but he didn't present it correctly here.

Such political religionists, who broach no ecumenism, seem to lack the moral humility on which their purported political religion depends: they are entirely convinced, albeit subconsciously, that there can be no new idea, and no new piece of information about the world or their own perspective, or anything in the experience or thinking of those with whom they disagree, that could show their view of an issue to be incomplete, let alone wrong, in any way that really matters. To quote Bertrand Russell, “Subjective certainty is inversely proportional to objective certainty.”

Jesus... I thought Ben Swann was suppsed to be a good writer. This article sucks, I am sorry to say. There are gaping holes in the structure of his reason and he makes all manner of assertions and backs nothing. "...convinced... there can be no idea..." WTF?

The paucity of people capable of thinking a set of ideas through coherently, consistently, and sensibly is just frightening.

There is a baseline beyond which there can be only two possibilities: intolerance or capitulation. This fashion of paying lip service to "diversity" and "tolerance" goes too far. Tolerance is for what is tolerable. The rest lies beyond that threshold. The key and the art in all of this lies with understanding the fundamentals - the radical principles that provably apply to every human being on the planet. Violation of those principles are not within the envelope of tolerance. Diversity that practices violation ought not be tolerated. Using such terms in the non-specific, vague, and undefined ways so many do renders communication and understanding null. There IS a line in the sand, and it is bright and well defined. There is no reason to tolerate the trespasses of those who tread beyond the metes and bounds of their moral prerogatives upon the territories of others. It has been precisely the toleration of the intolerable that has gotten the human race into the deplorable state in which it finds itself.

Swann is talking a lot in the article while saying nothing much. His writing style it typical of the intellectual lassitude and ignorance of the era. While I may agree with much of what I believe he is attempting to get across, his formulation of expressions leaves something to be desired and some of his assertions are plain baloney, given the dearth of supporting evidence. He doesn't explain what it means to be properly tolerant of the beliefs of others. That is a major FAIL. By his vagaries it can be plausibly inferred that I am intolerant if I don't let some AIDS-infested pervert bugger my children. There must be identified the absolute boundaries of so-called "tolerance", unless one is going to suggest that all must be tolerated, in which case he can take a fyckin' hike.

Someone needs to do better.
 
Ben Swann did not write the article. It is another author on his site.

As I predicted in the very beginning, some have gotten overly defensive, and perhaps to an extent rightfully so. I certainly see it on the other side of the coin too, so it may be unfair to single them out. In fact, it's turned out out to be the other extreme, the angelas of the world that are far more intolerant.

But if we could all just take this article as introspection and ignore the parts you disagree with, I think it is good advice for everyone all to take. Don't eat our own like we always love to do. You can disagree without calling into question one's character and intentions. This has gotten ridiculous.
 
Swann is talking a lot in the article while saying nothing much. His writing style it typical of the intellectual lassitude and ignorance of the era. While I may agree with much of what I believe he is attempting to get across, his formulation of expressions leaves something to be desired and some of his assertions are plain baloney, given the dearth of supporting evidence. He doesn't explain what it means to be properly tolerant of the beliefs of others. That is a major FAIL.

Someone needs to do better.


Don't blame Swann. He didn't write it. Blame me. I did.


As for ...

There is a baseline beyond which there can be only two possibilities: intolerance or capitulation. This fashion of paying lip service to "diversity" and "tolerance" goes too far. Tolerance is for what is tolerable. The rest lies beyond that threshold. The key and the art in all of this lies with understanding the fundamentals - the radical principles that provably apply to every human being on the planet. Violation of those principles are not within the envelope of tolerance. Diversity that practices violation ought not be tolerated. Using such terms in the non-specific, vague, and undefined ways so many do renders communication and understanding null. There IS a line in the sand, and it is bright and well defined. There is no reason to tolerate the trespasses of those who tread beyond the metes and bounds of their moral prerogatives upon the territories of others. It has been precisely the toleration of the intolerable that has gotten the human race into the deplorable state in which it finds itself.


... of course all that is correct. But what has that to do with anything in the article?

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be mistaking a call to be tolerant of (and civil to) people who think that such a line is in a slightly different place from where you may draw it, for a statement that there is no line at all or it doesn't matter where the line is drawn. I would never say that. The article doesn't say that or even imply it.

Or are you saying that the line is so clear that no other liberty-loving person in good faith could possibly draw it differently from you in any way whatsoever, in relation to any issue? If so, does any difference on the specifics mean that it isn't worth being civil enough to work together on the 99%, or 90% or even 75% of specifics/issues you can agree on?

Anyway, let's hope Ben can find some better writers, heh?!

Thanks.
 
Ben Swann did not write the article. It is another author on his site.

As I predicted in the very beginning, some have gotten overly defensive, and perhaps to an extent rightfully so. I certainly see it on the other side of the coin too, so it may be unfair to single them out. In fact, it's turned out out to be the other extreme, the angelas of the world that are far more intolerant.

But if we could all just take this article as introspection and ignore the parts you disagree with, I think it is good advice for everyone all to take. Don't eat our own like we always love to do. You can disagree without calling into question one's character and intentions. This has gotten ridiculous.

Thanks TheGrinch. That is of course the spirit in which the article was written. And I think the reactions around the place might prove the importance of the point it makes - and the accuracy of the Bertrand Russell quotes in the piece.

(Of course, being the author, I am biased.)

My only purpose is to speak to my family so we are more effective at spreading liberty. I am relatively new to the movement but am active enough - and deal with enough thousand of people to be pretty confident that the most offputting thing to those we could bring to our point of view is not the worldview itself, but the way we push it at/on/among people.

Thanks for your bravery in even putting up the OP!
 
I'm going to have to go read this thing now. Gee...thanks, Cabal. I've seen you make very good arguments in various corners of the board and relative to a broad range of issues and you've seemingly attempted the same here. So, I suppose I'll go read it. But I'll first say that I'm of the notion that libertarianism is often a stalking horse for fascism itself. Because of that, I'm also of the opinion that there is some justification for this pause among self professed "libertarians" when among themselves. Now, one can certainly frame that particular phenomenon so that it appears to be a completely different issue in any given "movement" which is, unfortunately, normal in purely political environments where just trying to hurry up and get elected may contradict actually trying to change the course of history.

But anyhoo...I'm getting long winded...
 
Those that demand absolute purity, yet will not step into the actual political scene in any real, tangible way, are just as statist as the next person. Control, control, control.

Then there are those who say "you agree with me on 95% but the way you implement your beliefs is all wrong! wrong wrong!" That itself is not the problem. It's those who expect other people to change to make their vision reality.

I stay within the GOP because I can hedge the clueless, uniformed who vote for that stupid little R to vote for me. Do you think Thomas Massie wins because he is a libertarian, or because of that R?
 
Those that demand absolute purity, yet will not step into the actual political scene in any real, tangible way, are just as statist as the next person. Control, control, control.

Pardon? Care to actually qualify this statement somehow?

Then there are those who say "you agree with me on 95% but the way you implement your beliefs is all wrong! wrong wrong!" That itself is not the problem. It's those who expect other people to change to make their vision reality.

Weren't you just criticizing certain people for the implementation of their beliefs by choosing to abstain from political involvement?
 
This forum is a prime example of intolerance. LOL.

:D :p

One is either a libertarian or an authoritarian.

The two are exact opposites and can not be mixed. You can have one or the other,, not both.

Attempting to mix the two results in authoritarianism that allows some limited liberty as long as it is allowed by the Authorities.

Liberty compromised= Authoritarianism.
 
There is definitely way too much infighting going on these days. Nearly anybody on these forums, even the most ardent anarchist, is many many universes closer to my beliefs and goals than the oligarchs in DC and those that support them.
 
:D :p

One is either a libertarian or an authoritarian.

The two are exact opposites and can not be mixed. You can have one or the other,, not both.

Attempting to mix the two results in authoritarianism that allows some limited liberty as long as it is allowed by the Authorities.

Liberty compromised= Authoritarianism.

Any compromise between good and evil only works to the detriment of the the good and to the benefit of the evil.

 
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