Libertarian Purists: Libertarian on Everything - Except Liberty

I liked this article very much.

:D :p

One is either a libertarian or an authoritarian.

The two are exact opposites and can not be mixed. You can have one or the other,, not both.

Attempting to mix the two results in authoritarianism that allows some limited liberty as long as it is allowed by the Authorities.

Liberty compromised= Authoritarianism.

Would you have Hitler(authoritarian) as your president or Rand Paul (lets call it "Liberty compromised")?
Would you jump from 1 foot height or 1000000000 feets (legs?)?

It is NOT one or the other.

You would be correct if things are changed with a flip of a switch. They are not.
 
I liked this article very much.



Would you have Hitler(authoritarian) as your president or Rand Paul (lets call it "Liberty compromised")?
Would you jump from 1 foot height or 1000000000 feets (legs?)?

It is NOT one or the other.

You would be correct if things are changed with a flip of a switch. They are not.

Why should we choose our masters? I would choose neither...as the entire position of authority they hold should be abolished. The only choices aren't rule by one (dictator) or rule by all (democracy - or its watered down cousin, republicanism)...you can choose to not be ruled by anyone (or to rule yourself - anarchism/autarchism).

Hitler or Paul? Of course one would rather have Paul IF that's your only choice...but it isn't. There is another choice: fuck them both and abolish the office altogether.

It's not WHO is in power that's the problem (hence electoral politics don't work long term) - the problem is the power itself. No one should rule another. Simply hoping for, or choosing (if that's what you call elections), a less abusive master is not the same thing as not being a slave. Not having master at all makes you not a slave.

And why do you need to jump from any height at all? I could take the elevator or the stairs (although at one foot, I can probably just ease down).

It IS logically one or the other....liberty or authority. Any compromise of libertarian ethics will lead to authoritarianism of various degrees. There's no arguing otherwise...it's simple Aristotelian Logic.

But of course, that's why minarchists aren't anarchists...they refuse to take their ideas to their logical conclusions, which of course leads to inconsistent logic and therefore inconsistent ethics.

It's ethically wrong to be ruled by others against your will, provided you have not victimized another first, and have the ability to consent. So, logically, Rand Paul being President doesn't mean his position is moral. In fact, it is immoral. Hitler may be MORE immoral, but that's a matter of degree, not principle. The principle is the first sentence in this paragraph. Hitler is MORE authoritarian than Rand, but that doesn't mean Rand is logically lacking any authoritarianism if he's the ruler.

You cannot say logically there is a gray area. Liberty is the negation of illegitimate authority (and all authority over the non-victimizer against their consent, assuming they can consent, is logically illegitimate). Illegitimate authority is the negation of liberty. Any move toward one negates the other to the degree of that move proportionally.

Some are just comfortable with being slaves, provided it's a more comfortable slavery than they are used to complaining about. Others simply say fuck being a slave of any kind. You are either totally free and not a slave, or you are a slave to some degree...there's no gray area.

Lesser of two evils is a shit argument, imo.

And no one needs things to change with a flip of switch...not your way or ours. Both depend on the masses being gradually enlightened. You see the goal as winning elections and being the ones to wield power (and therefore wielding it less, and more judicially, than the alternatives). We see the goal as abolishing that very power in the minimalist state socialized (the tiny state with a capitalist economy) system...so we see the masses being enlightened as the actual goal (as their enlightenment would lead to ignoring, subverting, and finally abolishing the state by making it illegal to extort and murder, even if the state does it). Minarchists tend to think A) we can't or shouldn't abolish the state, so we can't enlighten the masses that far or they'll want no state (hence, they try to distance anarchists from themselves, often by claiming we aren't even libertarians - which is utterly ridiculous and ahistorical), B) since winning elections is all that matters, we MUST choose our masters, and C) the state is not in of itself an immoral construct, so anarchists themselves are pursuing an immoral goal if they seek to abolish the state.

They also tend to think the state isn't the problem per se, but instead who is in power within the state.

Gradual enlightenment is needed for both of our plans...but for the minarchist plan you not only need an extra step (winning elections - whether or not this is done honestly or by bullshitting voters via the usual lying politician half-truths), but you also need to thwart enlightenment that goes "too far" from your perspective (the people should be enlightened, but only to the point they agree with your minarchism). Minarchists view anarchists as dangerous to winning elections, and anarchists view minarchists as somewhat illogical, and therefore somewhat unethical (as ethics are derived via logic...HOPEFULLY). Minarchists view elections as the goal, while anarchists view elections as opportunities to educate the masses (not water down the message of liberty to win elections in a yet unenlightened populace), if they view them as part of the solution at all. For anarchists, like myself, that view elections as simply ways to educate and convert through that education, we realize that if we keep the message at least as pure as Ron Paul did, not watered down like Rand's message, then we'll win elections as a byproduct of enlightening the masses, and those accidental wins will show the masses are ready to start massively scaling back or abolishing the state. The minarchist/Rand stealth strategy is not only dishonest and not geared to abolishing the state, but it also means you have to betray many voters when in office in order to shrink the state in any meaningful way (as you'll promise not to in order to get elected). This will make libertarians look like every other lying asshole political parasite.

Rand's message may win, but in the long run it is unsustainable. Not only is he talking about barely regressing the Leviathan (as opposed to massive changes we need), but he's either telling the truth (which would be bad for libertarians), or he's lying (which will be bad for our movement to convince others in the long run).

We need more Ron Paul messages (or even more radical)...not LESS radical messages. Our elections should be less about winning than education and conversion...which would, when successful, lead to a sustainable set of electoral wins (and these wins will signal a populace ready for massive changes, not nibbling at the edges of the drug war, foreign policy, etc.). Running to win, and win now, means lying, talking in circles, and not spreading the truthful radical message. That is a short-sighted strategy...and as someone who uses game theory mathematics on a daily basis for my job, I can tell you, it's going to slow us down in the long run. It's a momentum killer. I explained why in my super long post, previous to this one, in this same thread (the bubble effect in electoral politics).

The more patient, more honest, and more sustainable long term strategy is the anarchist/radical strategy. The ones trying to "flip the switch" too fast are the minarchists/gray area folks.
 
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Would you have Hitler(authoritarian) as your president or Rand Paul (lets call it "Liberty compromised")?
Would you jump from 1 foot height or 1000000000 feets (legs?)?

False dilemma.
 
You can choose to live in a state or you can choose to die.


I wish: world peace; every man with FREE BEER; no hangovers;unicorns were real.....I also wish that there were no states. Are my and your wishes coming true in our lifetime? No chance in hell. Wishes aside it is obvious that we are not strong or capable enough to kill the state. We all agree that we want liberty. I got nothing against philosophical arguments, "what ifs" and theory (I am all for it) BUT when it is time to act and work to create free society I see those "purists" staying in their theoretical and philosophical cocoons where reality does not reach(unicorns, world peace, free beer, instant jump to 100% free society). Some of us fight to get things moving toward liberty and some of those "purists" have urge sabotage us because we are not getting there in one step. If x person tries to advance cause of liberty through system or any other way that person didnt deserve that "libertarian purists" sabotage him/her/it. Look there is no law that forbids "purists" from posting derailing and counter-productive posts in activist threads. That doesnt mean it is ok or that it is not low and in some cases despicable. You want to be a "pure libertarian" dont pay taxes, carry a gun, refuse to obey laws- you will very soon DIE LIKE A FREE PERSON!!! Dont go to people that are trying to change things (elect people, get elected, work within system) and sabotage their efforts.

Freedom on one side and slavery on other.There are degrees but not gray area in between? I call that semantic.

This might sound demeaning and condescending but that is not my intention:

Too many of you never experienced totalitarian regimes and are content in dreaming about theoretical libertarian dream world. I cant say that there is no gray area???? From my perspective there is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeee gray area: When armed "comrades" march in your house to take your family member and put it into concentration camp from which he will likely not return-to my current state where there are no "comrades" that can do that- to stateless society. I tell you that there is huuuge gray area.

False dilemma.

arguing8xx.gif

No it isnt.
 
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Pardon? Care to actually qualify this statement somehow?
If someone is only using RPF or facebook to "educate" to the choir - they're essentially believing they can control others simply by arguing on a soapbox. In order for this belief to work you have to convince enough people to join you, just as any other path.

Weren't you just criticizing certain people for the implementation of their beliefs by choosing to abstain from political involvement?
Sure. Because as much as I'm in the minority as a liberty Republican, minarchists and anarchists are even MORE of a minority. In order for my goals to succeed, I can build on those who are clueless, essentially "hedging" their idiocracy and idol worship of that "R". The same cannot be said for minarchists or anarchists. In order for that goal to succeed, you either have to astronomically increase the intelligence level of the population (ha!) or force it through revolution at the barrel of a gun.

Did you or did you not vote for Ron Paul? Do you idolize him? Hold all other candidates up to him as a scale to compare? Would you vote for Thomas Massie?


All I want in a President is a loaded veto pen and the backbone to use it.
 
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We have differing goals and differing views on what will be accomplished in the near future. These are what I see as the root of the internal conflict that is being talked about.

Goals: Some want a stateless society. Some want a constitutional republic.
Future: Some think we can achieve real freedom soon. Some think it's a battle for generations to wage. Some think we're just fucked.

Depending on where you come from in the above stances, you choose your tactics based on it.

Most of us have encountered these tactics:

-I support Rand playing the game in order to win.
-I'm writing in Ron Paul until someone just like him gets on the ballot.
-I think the act of voting supports tyranny and refuse to vote.


IMO it all boils down to what one expects will be the results of these actions. It's hard to predict the future. But I think it is very important to consider the future and what you think can actually be accomplished.
 
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If someone is only using RPF or facebook to "educate" to the choir - they're essentially believing they can control others simply by arguing on a soapbox. In order for this belief to work you have to convince enough people to join you, just as any other path.

Oh, I see, you're suggesting that there is no other kind of meaningful activism outside of the political system? While this is of course patently false on its own, I'm still not sure how someone who prefers to abstain from involvement in the political system is therefore a statist.

Perhaps you should define statist? You may be using some odd definition if you think the above is what qualifies as statism.


Oh, alright. I wasn't sure if you realized the irony there since you, yourself, seem to be implying that you expect people who choose to abstain from political involvement to change. So it's a willful double standard then?

Did you or did you not vote for Ron Paul? Do you idolize him? Hold all other candidates up to him as a scale to compare? Would you vote for Thomas Massie?

All I want in a President is a loaded veto pen and the backbone to use it.

I did vote for, donate to, and support RP. I don't idolize him, I respect him. I would say RP raised the bar--set a new standard--that other politicians who would endeavor to represent liberty should strive to meet, and surpass. I don't follow Massie very closely, but from what I can tell he seems to be of rare quality, like RP is, but I don't know that I'll ever be voting again, honestly.
 
We have differing goals and differing views on what will be accomplished in the near future. These are what I see as the root of the internal conflict that is being talked about.

Goals: Some want a stateless society. Some want a constitutional republic.
Future: Some think we can achieve real freedom soon. Some think it's a battle for generations to wage. Some think we're just fucked.

Depending on where you come from in the above stances, you choose your tactics based on it.

Most of us have encountered these tactics:

-I support Rand playing the game in order to win.
-I'm writing in Ron Paul until someone just like him gets on the ballot.
-I think the act of voting supports tyranny and refuse to vote.


IMO it all boils down to what one expects will be the results of these actions. It's hard to predict the future. But I think it is very important to consider the future and what you think can actually be accomplished.

This seems like a fair assessment of things, from what I gather.
 
You can choose to live in a state or you can choose to die.

So says the statist.

1. The number one cause unnatural human death over the last 100 years was democide, not war or criminality (war was #2, and most of them were based on lies and were offensive and occupations states were responsible for). Democide is when your own govt murders you via politicide, mass murder, or genocide. The same state you ostensibly pay to protect you is a larger long term threat to kill you than criminals and other outside militaries, PERIOD. And the bigger the govt, the more likely democide is to occur.

2. Not only is there no logical reason to support your assertion, because clearly the state is more dangerous than the things you THINK it actually protects you from, but it also makes you less safe via its OFFENSE, not defense, policies. The state creates hatred from abroad, which translates to terrorism in response, among other things (like retaliatory war acts by other states, for example). Blowback 101.

3. Not only is there no utilitarian reason, as you tried to assert, for the state, and not only is the state's attempts at "defense" actually offense and making you less safe in most cases (the vast majority of cases), but also stateless societies got conquered at lower rates than states (most stateless societies became states without being conquered, because of economic ignorance of the consequences of cartelization of legal markets...and there used to be 600,000 states, of which only less than 200 remain unconquered by other states) because stateless defense via militias were almost impossible to make unnecessarily offensive and occupation forces (so they couldn't make you less safe via their offensive bullshit), and stateless defense was exceptionally good at defense at home because it was more efficient (free market allocation of capital is nearly always more efficient and better than state socialist allocation - which is what the state does in "defense" it provides).

Why do you guys want minimalist state socialism, but fancy yourselves free market advocates?

You can choose to live in a state...and still die. That's 100% bullshit-free analysis, unlike yours. You sounded like Bush ("fear is the excuse for my policies! Fear all, and all the time, 'Mericans! The masses think we don't need a state? Okay let's raise the color coded fear meter then!").

I'm tired of the minarchist horseshit straw man that assumes that somehow anarchists think human nature is all rainbows and unicorns. As I already pointed out, we don't think that stupid shit and never did. Anarchy does NOT require any change to the harsh reality of man's nature. Your state absolutely requires the impossible...that despite your admission of human nature, the state be dominated by only the good and incorruptible (which is largely impossible). So human nature, and the harsh reality of it, hardly works in favor of your argument for minarchy more than my argument for anarchy.

So take your straw man of free beer and world peace and stick it where the sun don't shine. None of that is required to outlaw extortion and murder for your rulers (so they can be held to the same standard of law and ethics as everyone else). You outlaw extortion and murder for the state, like everyone else, and the state ceases to exist.

Why do you minarchists support legalizing extortion (tax, tariff, costs of regulation compliance, or licensing, etc.) and murder (not self defense - but murder) of one kind or another for some parasitical ruling class minority?

/Straw man fire put out
 
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So says the statist.
Since statist is ultimate insult to libertarian I am going to give wide range of counter-insults... I fart in your general direction you delusional brain fart. I am not sure are you dick by nature or you simply refuse to acknowledge the fact that you will die if you try to live free in a state. - rep. I dont like it but it is reality.

It is a fact that "state" will kill you if you try to live free (without payng taxes, deserting army, not getting permits and licenses). You will die by the state because you try to live without state.
*"state"- politicians, brainwashed masses, "law enforcment"...


brain fart brain fart brain fart responding to something I didnt say, brain fart....
/Straw man fire put out

Put your arrogance out you you... Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries. Funny thing is I wrote in that comment about people who live in their imaginary world and refuse to see reality.

P.s.
I am not Merrican dude. I am from Croatia. I am libertarian-anarchist.

Go and boil your bottom, you son of a silly person!!!
 
I got a nice neg rep from you (for "being an asshole"), Barrex, and yet no answers to my italicized questions regarding your logic. I'll see if I get any real answers, or just more straw man.

BTW, as I already told you...you don't have to like me for me to be right. My provocative style is meant to make you think and stop insulting my, and others, intelligence, with your informal logical fallacies (like straw man). I want you to seriously consider the consistency of your logic, and therefore ethics, and argue logically, not based on fallacies that insult our intelligence (and don't do much to display your own).
 
Since statist is ultimate insult to libertarian I am going to give wide range of counter-insults

"Statist" is only an insult to minarchists, as anarchists define it as anyone who believes in the legitimacy of the state (and that's the actual meaning of the word, not the colloquialism that minarchists use).

In political science, statism (French: étatisme) is the belief that the state should control either economic or social policy, or both, to some degree.[1][2][3][4] Statism is effectively the opposite of anarchism.[1][2][3][4] Statism can take many forms from minarchism to totalitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism

I was using it correctly, not pejoratively. If you don't want to be a statist, become an anarchist...I don't know what else to tell you.

And I see you couldn't help but continue illogical responses. Petulant, and unbecoming of someone who supposedly values logic, as libertarians should.

Let me insult you with truth, not illogical nonsense:

1. You ARE a minimalist state socialist (you want state socialism for highways, police, military defense, law, courts, etc.). All minarchists are minimalist state socialists, just as all state communists are maximalist state socialists. They all want a degree of state socialism....the difference is degree, not difference in principle.

2. Minarchists DO advocate for legalized criminal behavior for the ruling class. The state can't exist without one or both of the following:

A) legalized extortion (taxation, tariff, license fee, cost of regulation compliance, fines that don't go to victims, but instead go to the state, etc.)

B) legalized threats of rape cages and property seizure against any market competitors who wish to better serve consumers in any of the areas the state holds a coercive monopoly/monopsony/cartel

Care to show how I'm wrong on either point?

PS. I neg repped you back on the wrong post...it was meant for the last one, not the one before that. My bad.
 
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Don't blame Swann. He didn't write it. Blame me. I did.

My error. The byline is small and very light gray, and my own lazy habit lead me to assume it was Swann. This is what I mean when I admonish people about habits and all that. It can bite anyone, even lunatics such as myself who go on endlessly about how important it is to exercise care in our usage of words.

That said, I hope you did not take anything too much to heart, save the message that we need to do better - myself included. Communication is a difficult thing, particularly when expounding on such topics as this precisely because these subject matters, rightly or otherwise, are laced with implications of restriction upon individual action, and at times the compulsion to act. When one is purporting to specify how his fellow may not act or must act, the communicative mode ought be carefully chosen, each word given its due consideration, which is something more stringent than when ordering a pizza.

As for ... [schnip] ... of course all that is correct. But what has that to do with anything in the article?

Everything, unless I misread your intended meaning. Perhaps I mistook the intended gravity of the article, but I am not sure how I might have. Like it or not, such matters are by their nature bending to the philosophic and the base implications always hover around questions of what a man may or may not do. Perhaps I'm just getting funny in my older-age, but as I get older I become more acutely aware of the subtleties of such expositions. Likewise, I have become more keenly cognizant of how profoundly language affects us and how important it is to take up certain subjects with special care. I find this especially true in this trying time where the future of the race of men is literally in the balance. It is no overstatement to assert that the quality of the lives of those who will come after us are soon to be determined, as is the case for the remainder of our lives as well. Any idea that claims the authority to stay the hand of a man had better be 100% up to snuff in all regards because shackling him is no laughing matter, no matter how lightly the manacle may be fashioned. The race of humans are so heavily trained to the whip that nary a one of us understands and appreciates just how serious the matter is. I find that lack of awareness most disturbing.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be mistaking a call to be tolerant of (and civil to) people who think that such a line is in a slightly different place from where you may draw it, for a statement that there is no line at all or it doesn't matter where the line is drawn. I would never say that. The article doesn't say that or even imply it.

You misunderstand. I am saying that the parameters of tolerance were unspecified. Do I tolerate the gay man who is attempting to convert my son to the queer lifestyle? Do I tolerate the man who waltzes into my home to raid my refrigerator because he was hungry? How about the one who steals my pen? It may be deemed as "no big deal" if it is a Bic, but what if it is the only pen I have and I need it? What if it is my $2K Pelican Toledo fountain pen?

The broader point is that there are those people who preach tolerance in ways that very directly and strongly imply that we must all be tolerant of everything. Well, when that young (wo?)man from Queer Nation made out to hump my leg during the Stonewall celebration back in the 90s, I let him know that if he were to proceed any further I would take unequivocal measures to stop him - measures I assured would fill him with painful regret. The pathetically helpless little idiot stepped back, got THAT look on his face, and said something along the lines of calling me a "hater". There were millions of people around and I was getting looks that gave my inner child pause to wonder whether I was going to end up in a real scrape. But, being a seasoned New York City boy, I adopted a facial expression and other body language and walked away - no rapidly, but with authority. The point is that this poor slob, I am sure, felt I was "intolerant" of him because I would not allow his Speed-0 clad bump rub against me. My objection had nothing to do with gay. Had it been a woman... well, I might in theory have given the same response, depending on how hot she was. :)

As I also mentioned, I agree with much of what I perceived to be the spirit of the article, but spirit is not enough on such matters. Maybe I am being too much of a tight-ass, but I see very little wiggle room for the use of innuendo and fill-in-the-blank forms of tacit assumption. THAT was the complaint I was (perhaps inadequately) registering.

My use of "sucked" was perhaps too broadly offered and for that I will apologize. It may be I am getting too sensitive on the topics at hand, but this is not completely beyond understanding, given what goes on in the world these days in this very land of ours. The "spirit" was fine, but I will stand by my assessment that you need to do better in the details because that is the home of the Devil himself.

Finally, I will state that my reaction may have been a bit abrupt in part to the sense of disappointment I experienced, thinking the great Ben Swann had put together an apparently well intended article that came up short in some critical manner. i suppose I am now in debt for one more apology. :)

Or are you saying that the line is so clear that no other liberty-loving person in good faith could possibly draw it differently from you in any way whatsoever, in relation to any issue? If so, does any difference on the specifics mean that it isn't worth being civil enough to work together on the 99%, or 90% or even 75% of specifics/issues you can agree on?

Not at all. Again, the parameters must be specified. I may or may not agree with them. Perhaps you would find abortion tolerable whereas someone else does not. See what I mean? If we don't know what you mean by "tolerance" with sufficient specificity, assertions that we must be tolerant hold no palpable meaning and then we may be wasting our time in both the reading and writing. Most folk experience no abrasions with loosey goosey communications, but I think this is a matter of flawed habit where such subject matter as this is concerned. That is my personal opinion. YMMV.

Edit: I think a point I missed earlier is the precarious nature of writing articles like this where the subject is too broadly chosen. Tolerance as a general topic can be problematic. If we narrow the scope a bit, we come more naturally to better explicitness.

Anyway, let's hope Ben can find some better writers, heh?!


Not better writers, improved writing. It is something from which we can all benefit, both as writers and readers.
 
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I got a nice neg rep from you (for "being an asshole"), Barrex, and yet no answers to my italicized questions regarding your logic. I'll see if I get any real answers, or just more straw man.

BTW, as I already told you...you don't have to like me for me to be right. My provocative style is meant to make you think and stop insulting my, and others, intelligence, with your informal logical fallacies (like straw man). I want you to seriously consider the consistency of your logic, and therefore ethics, and argue logically, not based on fallacies that insult our intelligence (and don't do much to display your own).

Oh God. REALITY!!!!!!! Ill simplify:
-----------------------------------------
You live in a state? Yes. No.
if yes:
If you try not to pay taxes state will imprison you? Yes. No.
if yes:
If you try to righteously defend your self state will kill you? Yes. No.

You can choose to live in a state or you can choose to die (STATE WILL KILL YOU).


THIS IS REALITY.
------------------------------------------
Did you not read about philosophical debates and rhetoric versus reality in my comment? You live in a dream world. Your version of free world will come true when unicorns come true. I am talking about reality and not esoteric debates. I got very little use from them. There will always be people who want to rule over other... and in liberty movement there will be dreamers who will just dream about free society and those who will work to achieve it. I got very little use from dreamers. I dont hate them (until they start sabotaging those who work to achieve free society) but I consider workers better than dreamers (in article referred as "purists").

Others get it, if +reps are any indicator.
 
"Statist" is only an insult to minarchists, as anarchists define it as anyone who believes in the legitimacy of the state (and that's the actual meaning of the word, not the colloquialism that minarchists use).



I was using it correctly, not pejoratively. If you don't want to be a statist, become an anarchist...I don't know what else to tell you.

And I see you couldn't help but continue illogical responses. Petulant, and unbecoming of someone who supposedly values logic, as libertarians should.

Let me insult you with truth, not illogical nonsense:

1. You ARE a minimalist state socialist (you want state socialism for highways, police, military defense, law, courts, etc.). All minarchists are minimalist state socialists, just as all state communists are maximalist state socialists. They all want a degree of state socialism....the difference is degree, not difference in principle.

You fucking liar. First I am Bush and Murrica something (even tho I am not Murrican) and now this. Just because I acknowledge existence of state does not mean that I approve of it. I do not approve of it. What the hell is your problem?
You are so far in your dream world and "what if" debates that word reality doesnt even exist in your vocabulary. Please read again my posts because you obviously didnt understand any of it.... I thought that it is because I am not native English speaker but like I said + reps tell me that others understood it.
 
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But if we could all just take this article as introspection and ignore the parts you disagree with, I think it is good advice for everyone all to take. Don't eat our own like we always love to do. You can disagree without calling into question one's character and intentions. This has gotten ridiculous.

A couple of things. Firstly, I called nobody's character into question - just the methods of expression. I have elsewhere admitted the faults in my response, so I will not go over that again. I can agree with your bit about spirit - to a point. But I stand by my opinion that we need to do better as a general rule.
 
Oh God. REALITY!!!!!!! Ill simplify:
-----------------------------------------
You live in a state? Yes. No.
if yes:
If you try not to pay taxes state will imprison you? Yes. No.
if yes:
If you try to righteously defend your self state will kill you? Yes. No.

You can choose to live in a state or you can choose to die (STATE WILL KILL YOU).


THIS IS REALITY.
------------------------------------------
Did you not read about philosophical debates and rhetoric versus reality in my comment? You live in a dream world. Your version of free world will come true when unicorns come true. I am talking about reality and not esoteric debates. I got very little use from them. There will always be people who want to rule over other... and in liberty movement there will be dreamers who will just dream about free society and those who will work to achieve it. I got very little use from dreamers. I dont hate them (until they start sabotaging those who work to achieve free society) but I consider workers better than dreamers (in article referred as "purists").

Others get it, if +reps are any indicator.

Repeating yourself isn't addressing anything I said. I asked you to answer a couple of italicized questions and address a couple of specific criticisms to your logic...and you can't do it.

And no, argumentum ad populum is not a logical argument..so fuck majority opinion when it comes to philosophical discussion. If majority opinion mattered at all, all libertarianism would be a flaw (as it isn't a majority opinion). I also got many reps from this thread...so when you're done fellating yourself, please get around to answering my actual questions/criticisms of your logic. Otherwise, you're just displaying the lack of logic I'm pointing out.

Yes, I live in a state, hence I am a slave.

Yes, they will try to throw me in a rape cage via legalized kidnapping and extortion, if I refuse to pay taxes for a long enough period (I was a tax protester for 4 years and they did nothing, and in fact weren't even aware of my protest until I informed them of it in order to get caught up on my extortion payments, err I mean taxes, so that they couldn't seize my assets for a business I started that was starting to succeed. At that point it wasn't just me at stake; I had people dependent on me, and couldn't allow them to be hurt by my personal principles about resisting tyranny individually).

Yes, the state will murder me if I try to justly defend myself from their extortion and kidnapping.

And once again, you can choose to live in a state AND die (see democide, as I already pointed out). You act as if paying them prevents them from murdering you or kidnapping you. Statistically, you are incorrect. Also, living in a prison cell for resistance to extortion is still living in a state.

The difference between you and I is that I don't advocate for minarchism knowing all this. I advocate against it. Want to join that side? Or do you want to keep advocating for the evil you aptly describe?

Reality is what we make it. Advocating for evil isn't going to abolish evil in reality, now is it?

I live in no dream world...I live in a nightmare that resulted from minarchists advocating for the oxymoron of limited government.

There will always be people that want to rule over others, as you said...minarchists look up to them, anarchists consider them criminals. How does advocating for such things, after acknowledging the evil behind them, make you logically, and ethically, consistent? Why should there be a small state when it inevitably leads to a Leviathan state? How is advocating for a small state not just advocacy for rulers of a limited nature? Why do you want to legalize that criminality?

I work more to achieve a free society than most. I've converted many people to libertarianism personally. I am an activist who risks prison quite frequently in order to protest various atrocities of the state. Stop acting like voting is somehow more legitimate and brave as a form of resistance, when clearly direct action is more brave and legitimate. All your political activism and phone banking doesn't mean shit if it carries hardly any risk with it, and if it changes very little. As someone once said, if voting changed anything of substance they'd outlaw it.

I have very little use for minarchists who fancy themselves "revolutionaries". Some of us will bleed for this cause, and some will just vote for it. I don't suggest everyone risk prison or bodily harm, but don't talk down to those who do, as if your nearly meaningless political activity does much of anything. Ron Paul had it right...don't put winning office above education and conversion of hearts and minds of the populace. He didn't need to risk prison or bodily harm to make a difference. Many, not all, minarchists seem way too focused on winning power they claim to disdain instead of actually changing minds. Sometimes elections can change minds...and in Ron's case, it changed MANY. But he didn't focus on winning over truth, even where the truth wasn't popular. It 's living in a fantasy to think winning office means more than truth. I've already explained the flaw in this thinking in previous posts, quite coherently.

You aren't working to achieve a free society if you're a minarchist. You're working for a more comfortable slavery. There is no free society when a parasitical ruling class exists, legalizing their own crimes like extortion, kidnapping, and murder of non-victimizers.

You consider it sabotage for me to point this out? How illogical, IF so.
 
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