Libertarian Julie Borowski vs. the Leftist-Libertarian Thought Police

[jj-]

There appears to be just as many unambitious haters on the internet who offer nothing but the desire to tear others down.

Just the internet? Have you been to life on earth?

 

[AGRP]

There appears to be just as many unambitious haters on the internet who offer nothing but the desire to tear others down.

I guess telling the truth in an empire of lies is treason. The truth is that there needs to be more women to make videos about liberty because Ive never been impressed with her intellect. As for her video, the reason why liberty is not more popular is because fed and corporate money has a strangle hold on the dinosaur mass media to serve their interests. Its not because libertarians are not strumming a guitar and making music.

 

[PursuePeace]

Yes. It is quite a pathetic sight to stomach. Her success wouldnt be possible without the countless virgins and lonely men on the internet. Im not impressed with her at all compared to the unsung, much brighter, talented, and deserving of more attention males ive seen, but she helps spread liberty. Goes to show how easy it is to fill empty voids where theres a lot of males who need to be serviced by scantly clad flirtatious girls who share their views. Shes like the one girl who shows up at a star trek convention. Cant blame her though. I would help serve that market if i was a female. I wonder if shell ever do a striptease video...for liberty of course.

She seems like a very intelligent, lovely person to me. She has a sense of humor that perhaps you are just not getting/don't care for. Nothing wrong with that at all. But there's no need to mischaracterize her in such an ugly way.

 

[acptulsa]

...Ive never been impressed with her intellect.

Do you really think that prevents her from being a good salesperson for the movement? Honestly?

But believe me later on you will find
As you impress her with your mind
That you will just be left behind
For a wiser fool.

 

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Yes. It is quite a pathetic sight to stomach. Her success wouldnt be possible without the countless virgins and lonely men on the internet. Im not impressed with her at all compared to the unsung, much brighter, talented, and deserving of more attention males ive seen, but she helps spread liberty. Goes to show how easy it is to fill empty voids where theres a lot of males who need to be serviced by scantly clad flirtatious girls who share their views. Shes like the one girl who shows up at a star trek convention. Cant blame her though. I would help serve that market if i was a female. I wonder if shell ever do a striptease video...for liberty of course.

Seriously...?

 

[AGRP]

She seems like a very intelligent, lovely person to me. She has a sense of humor that perhaps you are just not getting/don't care for. Nothing wrong with that at all. But there's no need to mischaracterize her in such an ugly way.

Did i state she was an unintelligent and unlovely person? Please dont mistake constructive criticism for ugliness.

 

[AGRP]

Seriously...?

Virgins part: 100% serious. You must not get out much?

Impressed part: Why did you exclude the rest of the sentence?

Striptease: It was in good humor, but yes. If i was a woman I would make a funny striptease video for liberty.

 

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Virgins part: 100% serious. You must not get out much?

Impressed part: Why did you exclude the rest of the sentence?

Striptease: It was in good humor, but yes. If i was a woman I would make a funny striptease video for liberty.

Virgin part: You're giving her very little credit for her success. I think your wrong.

Impressed part: Name some?

Striptease: Bad taste in my opinion.

 

[AGRP]

Virgin part: You're giving her very little credit for her success. I think your wrong.

Impressed part: Name some?

Striptease: Bad taste in my opinion.

What I stated is the honest and full truth for those who seek it. Its for those who dont maliciously exclude words, misinterpret, put words in my mouth, and read what they want so they can attack me rather than coming to terms with the truth and *gasp* publicly agreeing with it. Its undebatable unless you deny that men are driven by an endless desire for love and more importantly a need for sexual gratification. Humor in bad taste? Sure. Lets all continue laughing and agreeing with libertarian comedians such as doug stanhope for doing the same thing.

The only reason why I decided to finally speak the truth is because of her utterly ridiculous claim that the reason why libertarian ideas arent more mainstream is because we arent making enough music or have artistic talents. I would be laughed out of the building and never to be taken seriously again if i stated that. We need more libertarian women who can make videos.

 

[VoluntaryAmerican]

What I stated is the honest and full truth for those who seek it. Its for those who dont maliciously exclude words, misinterpret, put words in my mouth, and read what they want so they can attack me rather than coming to terms with the truth and *gasp* publicly agreeing with it. Its undebatable unless you deny that men are driven by an endless desire for love and more importantly a need for sexual gratification. Humor in bad taste? Sure. Lets all continue laughing and agreeing with libertarian comedians such as doug stanhope for doing the same thing.

The only reason why I decided to finally speak the truth is because of her utterly ridiculous claim that the reason why libertarian ideas arent more mainstream is because we arent making enough music or have artistic talents. I would be laughed out of the building and never to be taken seriously again if i stated that. We need more libertarian women who can make videos.

I'm not attacking you. Just challenging your opinion.

I will even agree with you that some of her success is from her good looks, but to attribute most of her success to this one quality is an over-exaggeration. It's apparent to me she has charisma and determination and some business savvy of her own.

Most of the young women I know (including my girlfriend) who are Libertarians were first introduced to the idea through Ayn Rand or from a boyfriend. And as Julie said, there is clearly a lack of Libertarian pop culture directed to women. It's not some crazy concept that the media we read reinforces our beliefs, the large majority reinforces the liberal agenda for women.

Also, as I previously said more men are inherently interested in small business and economics; so they are more inclined to understand markets and how they function and come to our conclusion through this angle.

But at the end of the day... most of the blame should go to the government itself. It has helped destroy the family and it constantly pits us against each other in this fashion.

 

[Occam's Banana]

You may be jealous to know that she emails me her latest uploads...

I am indeed! <-- me, green with envy

Bob Murphy weighs in...

That was great. +rep. Pass it on to Bob.

 

[AGRP]

I'm not attacking you. Just challenging your opinion.

I will even agree with you that some of her success is from her good looks, but to attribute most of her success to this one quality is an over-exaggeration. It's apparent to me she has charisma and determination and some business savvy of her own.

Most of the young women I know (including my girlfriend) who are Libertarians were first introduced to the idea through Ayn Rand or from a boyfriend. And as Julie said, there is clearly a lack of Libertarian pop culture directed to women. It's not some crazy concept that the media we read reinforces our beliefs, the large majority reinforces the liberal agenda for women.

Also, as I previously said more men are inherently interested in small business and economics; so they are more inclined to understand markets and how they function and come to our conclusion through this angle.

But at the end of the day... most of the blame should go to the government itself. It has helped destroy the family and it constantly pits us against each other in this fashion.

You, among others, were (and still are) attacking me by literally excluding parts (and full) of sentences in my posts. You are using your carefully crafted omissions as a lever to debate things I never stated. That is an attack.

 

[Brett85]

I'm trying to work up the courage to ask Julie to marry me.

 

[FrankRep]

I'm trying to work up the courage to ask Julie to marry me.

I'm sure that line is pretty long. heh.

 

[AGRP]

I'm trying to work up the courage to ask Julie to marry me.

You and at least 2 other guys in this thread

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

How's that even libertarian then?


Yeah? If anything men are deprived of liberty more than women, thanks to certain quotas, affirmative action type laws, discrimination in child custody cases, etc...

Libertarianism doesn't deal with social norms, as long as they are not enforced by the state. Your feminist worldview has nothing to do with libertarianism, as long as you don't want the state to intervene, at which point it goes against libertarian ideals.

If controlled for all variables unmarried men and unmarried women earn just as much for the same job. Actually even slightly less. Again discrimination against men? Married men tend to earn more than unmarried men, while for women the opposite is true. So the whole "discrimination" argument falls apart. It's the result of different choices men and women tend to make in their lifes. I have no desire to change other people's goals in life, as long as any individual woman who wants to focus on her career instead of family is able to do so (as is the case). That gap between married men and women is closing too, btw. Also, anyone who understands free market economics knows before he even sees empirical studies that discrimination based on gender is not a suitable long term business model.

Yeah there are problems that affect women more than men. And vice versa. The truth is, non of them are really important or significant. That whole issue is way overblown.

Also I don't see why this position would count as "right-wing". What's right about that? Being mindlessly pro-women on every issue = left, stating facts = right? What's the difference between right and left libertarianism? There's no such thing, imho.

A few things here:

1. A lot of left-libertarians - at least the particular wing that I subscribe to - contend that capitalism and free markets are not compatible - basically, that actually-existing capitalism could not in fact exist without the state. That is what I was driving at with that somewhat 'anti-capitalist' remark. I think that's a whole 'nother issue separate from the issue being discussed at present in this thread, so I'm not going to get too much into it here.

2.

It's the result of different choices men and women tend to make in their lifes. I have no desire to change other people's goals in life, as long as any individual woman who wants to focus on her career instead of family is able to do so (as is the case).

But why do men and women make "different choices"? Are women inherently less capable of the critical/reasoned thinking that is required for professions that typically have fewer women in them (economists, scientists of all kinds, etc.), or are there other factors at work? Women are generally expected to be less "out there" with their powers of reason. I can't tell you the amount of times I have gotten dirty looks from people who were not accustomed to someone of my gender having the traits that I have (I'm pretty much a highly logical person, to put it succinctly). I've been called "intimidating" by more than a few people, while a male with basically my same body of knowledge was not referred to in such terms. I don't have a desire to force anything down people's throats either, but I think gender roles are a whole lot more interesting and complicated than simply saying "people should be free to do whatever they want and let's leave it at that".

And, feminism has plenty to do with libertarianism. Some of the most important libertarians were feminists - Voltairine de Cleyre, Emma Goldman, Sharon Presley if your taste is more contemporary, Charles W. Johnson, etc. etc.

As for your implication that I care about pay differentials - I don't blame the market system for that sort of thing. I think the free(d) market has the potential to bring about more equitable arrangements, or at least ones that aren't marred by the persistent and destructive interference of the state.

By the way, Julie's response to the criticism leveled at her video is more compelling, because she also makes the point that libertarians are already marginalized in the political sphere - called juvenile, idiotic, etc. It is more likely that an already-marginalized societal group will be reluctant to take on yet another characteristic that identifies them as being different. The full link to her response is here, and I believe she does a better job explaining herself there than on the video: http://julieborowski.wordpress.com/...ing-the-lack-of-female-libertarians-critcism/

 

[Danan]

The stuff about wages was just to counter the usual "discrimination in the workplace" argument. I mean, sure here and there discrimination will take place. Against women and men. Positive and negative discrimination. I don't see that one outweighs the other significantly. Most people simply don't care at all about their employee's gender (well maybe the fact that women to tend to have more interuptions in their careers is a consideration for some employers, but that's neither hateful nor totally unreasonable from an economic point of view, but rather based on facts).

But why do men and women make "different choices"?

Plenty of reasons. Probably genetical, cultural, etc. But what if we find that out? The question is should we change that? Why is that any of our business? As long as nobody gets coerced, I don't care what choices other people make in their lifes. I mean it may be interesting to know, from a scientific point of view, but what if we find out?

Should we actively try to change people's desires? I mean why should I make women who wants to stay at home and raise children change their minds? Or men who want to focus on their career?

Personally I guess I'm really "liberal" on that issue. If I find a women I truly love I believe I would have no problem to stay at home and raise kids myself, if she has better job opportunities and wants to stay working. But why would I want to change how other people choose to live their lifes? That doesn't affect me at all.

Also, I don't know if women in general tend to be less or more logical and if that has anything to do with what jobs either group tends to work in. Again a totally scientific question (though a very interesting one), without any important consequences for the real world. Even if it turned out to be the case that men on average are more "logical thinking", that still doesn't tell you anything about an individual man. Just that the likelyhood of a randomly picked man to be logical thinking would be higher than of a randomly picked woman. But in all important instances (like job interviews) you don't pick people randomly.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Virgins part: 100% serious. You must not get out much?

Impressed part: Why did you exclude the rest of the sentence?

Striptease: It was in good humor, but yes. If i was a woman I would make a funny striptease video for liberty.

And here I thought the internets were full of sluts (male and female). And dannno wannabes. (no, I don't get out much. /shrugs)

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

The stuff about wages was just to counter the usual "discrimination in the workplace" argument. I mean, sure here and there discrimination will take place. Against women and men. Positive and negative discrimination. I don't see that one outweighs the other significantly. Most people simply don't care at all about their employee's gender (well maybe the fact that women to tend to have more interuptions in their careers is a consideration for some employers, but that's neither hateful nor totally unreasonable from an economic point of view, but rather based on facts).

Plenty of reasons. Probably genetical, cultural, etc. But what if we find that out? The question is should we change that? Why is that any of our business? As long as nobody gets coerced, I don't care what choices other people make in their lifes. I mean it may be interesting to know, from a scientific point of view, but what if we find out?

Should we actively try to change people's desires? I mean why should I make women who wants to stay at home and raise children change their minds? Or men who want to focus on their career?

Personally I guess I'm really "liberal" on that issue. If I find a women I truly love I believe I would have no problem to stay at home and raise kids myself, if she has better job opportunities and wants to stay working. But why would I want to change how other people choose to live their lifes? That doesn't affect me at all.

I don't think action on anyone's ELSE'S part is necessarily required to "change people's desires". I think women who aren't necessarily already libertarian understand from the start that they face issues that are by nature quite different than the issues men face. As a libertarian, I think the fastest way to getting them to see my view (that state intervention is actually more harmful to women) is to acknowledge that these issues exist, and then explain in some way how the state reinforces patterns of oppression against women. My ultimate point is this: people can ultimately act more effectively to free themselves once they understand the nature of their own oppression. It does no good to flat-out deny that it exists. You'll have to note here that I don't think much of the problem, if any of it, is "genetic" or "biological" in nature -- I think it's the way some women are raised, both in the home and in the failing educational system. I also believe male libertarians don't do much to advance the cause, either - I tried to hint at that in my very first post on this topic.

You and I have different priorities. That is really what it comes down to.

 

[Brett85]

Has anyone heard of a conservative woman commentator on Facebook named Paula Priesse? If not, you should definitely look her up.