Immigration: Letting illegals buy citizenship...would Paul support?

[josun54]

I do not think buying a fasttrack to citizenship is a great idea. But I also have some questions.

This is the most absolutely ridiculous thread on this board.

In the first place, there is no such thing as an "illegal" when referring to an immigrant. There is no law that makes immigration "illegal." There is a statute (8 USC 1325) that is called "Improper Entry," which is a civil violation, not a crime. But, that statute presumes that there is a legitimate "proper" avenue that addresses the immigrant's fact situation in the first place (and unfortunately there is not.)
-This is what really interests me. Why is it not against the law to come to this country without getting the proper permit or permission from us?

Either way, 8 USC 1325 is purely civil and it imposes no criminal penalties. As a matter of fact, that statute has to reference Title 18 of the United States Code (that deals with crimes) to impose criminal penalties for eluding the authorities, lying to them, committing fraud, etc.

According to the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

What we have are unalienable Rights, bestowed upon all men and among them are Life and Liberty. The founding fathers could not have been thinking about citizenship when those words were penned. It would be eleven years before there was an constitutional America to be a citizen of. Additionally, it was the founding fathers that were the immigrants, having come into this country without the permission of the Native Americans.

UNALIENABLE RIGHTS, unlike inalienable Rights cannot be bought, sold, traded, nor denied by mortal man. You cannot negotiate them away. For example, you cannot barter with your life and allow someone to take it if they promise to put your children through college. You cannot deny to immigrants the Right to come here and work and force them to become citizens.

Ok, I am trying to figure this out. So immigrants have a right to come here and work even if they came here without getting a work visa or some other type of temporary green card? And I do agree that you cannot force anyone to become citizens. But I dont think you should be able to stay if you are not here properly. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

Citizenship is a privilege. Taking advantage of an opportunity willingly offered is a RIGHT. Can you please explain this with an example or two? You cannot pass a law infringing upon the Liberties of other human beings. Citizenship gives people certain privileges, such as being able to vote and being able to be let out of jail on their own recognizance.

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

"Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of the people choose
that they be."
U.S. Supreme Court in Westbrook v. Mihaly 2 C3d 756

Do immigrants have constitutional Rights? Try shooting one of them as they enter the United States without papers and you'll find out. If they have a Right to Life, they for sure have a Right to Liberty. Neither of them are granted by a majority of the people.

As for employers that hire the undocumented foreigner:

"No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation." (Fifth Amendment to the Constitution)

Notice that all persons (as differentiated from citizens) are entitled to Liberty. We cannot take away the immigrants Liberties NOR can we criminalize an employer for offering a job to the person of his / her choice.

So does this mean that it should be a civil offense to hire someone who has no social security number? Or should we have no penalties?

It is not required that one become a citizen and have a say in our government just for the ability to exercise unalienable Rights.

To his credit, Ron Paul has acknowledged that our immigration laws need to be relaxed so as to allow the foreigner to come here. But, it will never become a law (in our constitutional Republic) that one must become a citizen in order to exercise a Right bestowed upon them by their Creator (whomever they deem that to be.)

 

[erowe1]

-This is what really interests me. Why is it not against the law to come to this country without getting the proper permit or permission from us?

And by "us" you mean "the regime in DC". Right?

 

[Enforcer]

Of all of the ways of getting money to the government I have concluded that the best way is to get it through the immigration process. It is the only way where force is not used and people have a choice. You can pay money and become a citizen, or you can just not be a citizen.

It happens all the time in smaller forms of government. These are often referred to as "clubs".

This also keeps the government honest because they want to encourage citizenship. If you have an oppressive regime, nobody will want to pay for citizenship. It would be a free market form of creating the best form of government as people shop for the best citizenship.

That flies in the face of what Ron Paul stands for. Liberty cannot be bought and sold like trash cans and septic tanks.

 

[hard@work]

Talking to some immigrants in my life they have all had a common theme. In gaining US citizenship there is an order of acceptance. Money first, skills second, and necessity third. That's not what we're taught about Ellis Island is it?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/

A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY

A nation without borders is no nation at all.

It just doesn’t make sense to fight terrorists abroad while leaving our front door unlocked.

Unfortunately, for far too long, neither major political party has had the courage to do what is necessary to tackle the problem.

Instead, we’re presented with so-called “solutions” that involve amnesty proposals or further restricting Americans’ civil liberties through programs like REAL ID.

Ron Paul opposes both of these schemes and believes they will only make illegal immigration and the problems associated with it worse.* He has been proud to see states exercising their Tenth Amendment rights and protecting their citizens by refusing to comply with the unconstitutional REAL ID law.

While the federal government neglects its constitutional responsibility to protect our borders, it continues to push mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care to illegal immigrants at a time when the states are drowning in debt.** This must not be tolerated any longer.

Like most Americans, Ron Paul also understands just how valuable legal immigration is to our country.

Immigrants who want to work hard, obey our laws, and live the American Dream have always been great assets.

COMMON SENSE REFORMS

If elected President, Ron Paul will work to implement the following common sense reforms:

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration.* As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

* Protect Lawful Immigrants – As President, Ron Paul will encourage legal immigration by streamlining the entry process without rewarding lawbreakers.

As long as our borders remain wide open, the security and safety of the American people are at stake.

As President, Ron Paul will address immigration by fighting for effective solutions that protect our nation, uphold the rule of law, and respect every American citizen’s civil liberties.

 

[josun54]

And by "us" you mean "the regime in DC". Right?

No.......... I mean the federal govt, since it is supposed to protect our borders. This is one of the few powers that it actually has!

I think you may have me confused with someone that doesnt like Ron Paul.

And I want to thank Brian4Liberty, the link that he provided says, "While the federal government neglects its constitutional responsibility to protect our borders," shows what I mean. I thank you for that link as it was what I was looking for!

 

[Enforcer]

No.......... I mean the federal govt, since it is supposed to protect our borders. This is one of the few powers that it actually has!

I think you may have me confused with someone that doesnt like Ron Paul.

And I want to thank Brian4Liberty, the link that he provided says, "While the federal government neglects its constitutional responsibility to protect our borders," shows what I mean. I thank you for that link as it was what I was looking for!

This is one issue that Ron Paul may be pandering to the anti-immigrant lobby by actually playing semantics.

You see, coming into the United States and even presence without papers ARE NOT CRIMES. Ron Paul probably knows this. Additionally, forgiving someone for working around non-existent laws is, most likely, never going to be ruled as an actual amnesty regardless of what you call it.

If, with the Army, Navy, United States Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserves, National Guard not to mention all kinds of satellites, drones, etc... and that TRILLION DOLLAR AGENCY CALLED HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY are not enough to pacify you, then you probably won't be satisfied until you live in the ultimate POLICE STATE.

 

[Enforcer]

I do not think buying a fasttrack to citizenship is a great idea. But I also have some questions.

"This is what really interests me. Why is it not against the law to come to this country without getting the proper permit or permission from us?"

RESPONSE: I haven't the foggiest clue as to why, other than the fact that government can only regulate foreigners not force them to become citizens in exchange for exercising unalienable Rights. I only know that it is in a civil section of the United States Code

Ok, I am trying to figure this out. So immigrants have a right to come here and work even if they came here without getting a work visa or some other type of temporary green card? And I do agree that you cannot force anyone to become citizens. But I dont think you should be able to stay if you are not here properly. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

RESPONSE: YES. The United States Supreme Court has opined that NO ONE is bound to obey an unconstitutional law. If we fail to provide a visa or temporary work ID, people can come here. READ what I'm writing:

We do not have visas that address the fact situation whereby MILLIONS of foreigners come into the United States. Guest Workers are not students, agricultural workers, the immediate family of an American, some white collar specialty worker. They aren't doctors, dentists or scientists. But, the fact that our system has accepted them shows that they are only taking advantage of opportunities willingly offered.

So does this mean that it should be a civil offense to hire someone who has no social security number? Or should we have no penalties?

RESPONSE: It is already illegal for the EMPLOYER to hire someone that lacks proper identification. I used to have a letter from the Socialist Security Administration stating that whether or not someone ever provides the employer their SSN is strictly a private matter between the employer and employee. According to the Socialist Security Administration, 75 percent of the people in the United States without human registration papers have gotten a TAXPAYER IDENTIFICATION NUMBER and pay the same taxes as you... furthermore, they still cannot qualify for entitlements and the $9 BILLION DOLLARS a year they put into Socialist Security is money they can never draw out of the system. It's a gift to all those getting Socialist Security today.

 

[Enforcer]

Talking to some immigrants in my life they have all had a common theme. In gaining US citizenship there is an order of acceptance. Money first, skills second, and necessity third. That's not what we're taught about Ellis Island is it?

Some of us are more "equal" than others.

 

[josun54]

This is one issue that Ron Paul may be pandering to the anti-immigrant lobby by actually playing semantics.

You see, coming into the United States and even presence without papers ARE NOT CRIMES. Ron Paul probably knows this. Additionally, forgiving someone for working around non-existent laws is, most likely, never going to be ruled as an actual amnesty regardless of what you call it.

If, with the Army, Navy, United States Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserves, National Guard not to mention all kinds of satellites, drones, etc... and that TRILLION DOLLAR AGENCY CALLED HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY are not enough to pacify you, then you probably won't be satisfied until you live in the ultimate POLICE STATE.

Well then, would an amendment to the constitution that made it illegal to enter our country without coming here with proper documentation be the way to resolve this? I dont like adding more things to the constitution or to our big mess of laws but if there are no laws that forbid it then you are right, there is no crime being committed.

Our troops being home to help with our border situation would help things. And "that TRILLION DOLLAR AGENCY CALLED HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY" doesn't make me feel any better.

 

[josun54]

"This is what really interests me. Why is it not against the law to come to this country without getting the proper permit or permission from us?"

RESPONSE: I haven't the foggiest clue as to why, other than the fact that government can only regulate foreigners not force them to become citizens in exchange for exercising unalienable Rights. I only know that it is in a civil section of the United States Code

Ok, I am trying to figure this out. So immigrants have a right to come here and work even if they came here without getting a work visa or some other type of temporary green card? And I do agree that you cannot force anyone to become citizens. But I dont think you should be able to stay if you are not here properly. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

RESPONSE: YES. The United States Supreme Court has opined that NO ONE is bound to obey an unconstitutional law. If we fail to provide a visa or temporary work ID, people can come here. READ what I'm writing:

We do not have visas that address the fact situation whereby MILLIONS of foreigners come into the United States. Guest Workers are not students, agricultural workers, the immediate family of an American, some white collar specialty worker. They aren't doctors, dentists or scientists. But, the fact that our system has accepted them shows that they are only taking advantage of opportunities willingly offered.

So does this mean that it should be a civil offense to hire someone who has no social security number? Or should we have no penalties?

RESPONSE: It is already illegal for the EMPLOYER to hire someone that lacks proper identification. I used to have a letter from the Socialist Security Administration stating that whether or not someone ever provides the employer their SSN is strictly a private matter between the employer and employee. According to the Socialist Security Administration, 75 percent of the people in the United States without human registration papers have gotten a TAXPAYER IDENTIFICATION NUMBER and pay the same taxes as you... furthermore, they still cannot qualify for entitlements and the $9 BILLION DOLLARS a year they put into Socialist Security is money they can never draw out of the system. It's a gift to all those getting Socialist Security today.

Ok, I think I understand your point now. It is not illegal in the terms of the constitution to hire someone without proper identification. But there was a law that was put into place to make it illegal and that law is technically invalid because of what the constitution states. Am I on the right track?

Edit: Also, do you think it is right that they can get a taxpayer identification number and pay into SS. Seems like an incentive for the govt to do nothing about the situation.

It is sad, but I probably wont see any of the money I have put into SS either by the time I am old enough to use it.

 

[RickBelmont]

This is the most absolutely ridiculous thread on this board.

In the first place, there is no such thing as an "illegal" when referring to an immigrant.

Your reply is open borders nonsense.

First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, it was a document that allowed the colonies to break away from England. There is nor eason to quote it, unless you are saying that the illegal aliens are trying to secede...

Second, "nobody is illegal" is a mantra of the radical illegal aliens.

In a rule of law system, you cannot change the law to accommodate someone who ISN'T a citizen, lol! What a disastrous proposition!!!!! That an individual can enter a foreign country illegally and petition the government of the country he entered illegally to change the laws in his favor, after the individual broke them is ludicrous! It is also very dangerous.

FEDERAL CRIME:
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

Illegal Immigration IS NOT a victimless crime.
It has substantial impact on the poor, minorities and children. Illegal immigration drains resources, takes away jobs, creates further politicization of an illegal crime.

Most proponents of open borders are actually lobbying to PREVENT the enforcement of laws.

The majority of illegal aliens are from Mexico and hurt legal immigration from the rest of the world.

The illegal aliens from Mexico retain radicalized views and form sub communities with radicalized views.

If you listen to the far left collectivists you would think they are angels, mini-Christ vicitms who are owed something because of their martyrdom. But thanks to the magic of video we know much different.

Take for example this video of illegal aliens in LA protesting Americans. This guy is trying to burn the American flag, while other illegals shout racial epithets:



There is a cultural war, as well as ethnic national socialism coming from Mexico.

Here from proponents of illegal immigration in this video, in their own words express their racial hatred of non Hispanics:


Some flag desecration by illegal aliens:


The mythology is that illegal aliens from Mexico just want a better life. However, what they tend to project is extreme racial nationalism (while calling others racist):



Open borders and its apologists are responsible for the death of the rule of law.

 

[Enforcer]

Well then, would an amendment to the constitution that made it illegal to enter our country without coming here with proper documentation be the way to resolve this? I dont like adding more things to the constitution or to our big mess of laws but if there are no laws that forbid it then you are right, there is no crime being committed.

Our troops being home to help with our border situation would help things. And "that TRILLION DOLLAR AGENCY CALLED HOMELAND (IN) SECURITY" doesn't make me feel any better.

An amendment to the Constitution has two chances: slim and NONE. Slim gets further down the road with each attempt to force people to become citizens.

This irrational, xenophobic fear has no basis in fact. In 1848 the United States defeated Mexico and established the border. We have fought major world wars AND the mere fact that we were not invaded by hordes of Muslims when our forces were committed to Iraq ought to tell you that the border is quite secure... and we did that without the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security.

I have criss-crossed this country looking for ANY representative of the anti-immigrant forces to debate me and show the public one legitimate reason that we should waste TRILLIONS of dollars to keep Hispanics out of the United States when there are Americans willing to hire them, rent to them, sell to them, buy from them and do business in general with them.

Fences, walls, prohibitions against guests and so forth do absolutely nothing to regulate the flow of people in and out of the country in a free market economy. All it does is to prohibit people from freely engaging in business. The situation has remained a virtual constant, despite seven amnesties since the 1980s and we've lived the most prosperous years of our lives with open borders and people traveling back and forth across the border.

Feel free to pursue constitutional amendments, but I think you're closer to having a Hispanic president than you are to an effort at rebuilding the Berlin Wall across the southern border.

 

[Enforcer]

Your reply is open borders nonsense.

First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, it was a document that allowed the colonies to break away from England. There is nor eason to quote it, unless you are saying that the illegal aliens are trying to secede...

The Declaration of Independence IS a legal document. It is at the head of the United States Code Annotated and it has been cited as authority in over 100 court cases, including, but not limited to federal cases.

Second, "nobody is illegal" is a mantra of the radical illegal aliens.

In a rule of law system, you cannot change the law to accommodate someone who ISN'T a citizen, lol! What a disastrous proposition!!!!! That an individual can enter a foreign country illegally and petition the government of the country he entered illegally to change the laws in his favor, after the individual broke them is ludicrous! It is also very dangerous.

FEDERAL CRIME:
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;


Why did you feel it necessary to add words to that above quote and leave out important ones? 8 USC 1325 is a CIVIL section of the law and it DOES NOT MAKE IT A CRIME TO ENTER OR BE IN THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT PAPERS. An improper act is NOT an illegal act.
Illegal Immigration IS NOT a victimless crime.
It has substantial impact on the poor, minorities and children. Illegal immigration drains resources, takes away jobs, creates further politicization of an illegal crime.

No sir, immigration creates jobs and opportunities. Study after study shows that the foreigners pay their way regardless of their immigration status

Most proponents of open borders are actually lobbying to PREVENT the enforcement of laws.

BULLSHIT

The majority of illegal aliens are from Mexico and hurt legal immigration from the rest of the world.

Absolutely UNTRUE. Each country is treated different for purposes of immigration. For example, if a Cuban washes up on our shores, we've had a long standing policy never to deport them. You are making crap up to bolster a morally indefensible position.

The illegal aliens from Mexico retain radicalized views and form sub communities with radicalized views.

Most of them just want to come here, work and make some money.

If you listen to the far left collectivists you would think they are angels, mini-Christ vicitms who are owed something because of their martyrdom. But thanks to the magic of video we know much different.

I wouldn't know, but when I told people that the Minutemen were Nazis... nobody believed it until it got on YouTube

Take for example this video of illegal aliens in LA protesting Americans. This guy is trying to burn the American flag, while other illegals shout racial epithets:



There is a cultural war, as well as ethnic national socialism coming from Mexico.

And National Socialism coming from neo nazis in the U.S.

Here from proponents of illegal immigration in this video, in their own words express their racial hatred of non Hispanics:


Some flag desecration by illegal aliens:


The mythology is that illegal aliens from Mexico just want a better life. However, what they tend to project is extreme racial nationalism (while calling others racist):



Open borders and its apologists are responsible for the death of the rule of law.

People like RickBelmont are a cancer on the conscience of America. I'm not a left winger nor a Hispanic; don't have any cheering section on that side of the fence either. So, his attempts at linking those who call the white racist xenophobes with name calling and cheap theatrics can convince nobody except those with an IQ that matches their shoe size.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ6owsJTCYI

Guilt by association works both ways, Rick.

 

[Enforcer]

TITLE 8 USC 1325 EXPLAINED

Here is the truth to the law that Rick Belmont quoted with my explanations follow.

Title 8 § 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

NOTICE THERE ARE THREE PARTS OF THIS STATUTE - SECTION A DEALS WITH THE IMPROPER ASPECT WHILE SECTIONS 2 AND 3 DEAL WITH ELUDING POLICE AND MAKING MISLEADING STATEMENTS
(b) improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both.

Notice that 8 USC 1325 is in a civil section of the United States Code. It CANNOT impose criminal penalties. Rick Belmont LIED to everyone on this board by typing "FEDERAL CRIME" in front of that section of the law. Furthermore, he omitted the portions of the law wherein Title 8 makes references to Title 18 Crimes (Title 18 EIGHTEEN is not Title 8.) So, there are criminal penalties attached to things like eluding police, lying to the authorities, marriage fraud, etc. BUT NEVER IS THERE A CRIMINAL PENALTY INVOLVED IN TITLE 18 FOR IMPROPER ENTRY BECAUSE IMPROPER ENTRY IS NOT A CRIME.

Let me prove it to you:

A few years ago an anti - immigrant United States Congressman by the name of James Sensenbrenner tried to amend (change) Title 8 USC 1325 to read "UNLAWFUL ENTRY" where it currently says "IMPROPER ENTRY." If entering the United States without the requisite papers were a crime, there would be no need to change 8 USC 1325.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4437

Check out Section 203 of the above link and you will see that Rick Belmont LIED to you.


“Not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime...” (Attorney General Michael Mukasey)

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/08/12...ong-or-every-violation-of-the-law-is-a-crime/

 

[AFPVet]

Should illegal immigrants be allowed to buy their way into citizenship? No. In my opinion, if you are not born here or swear/affirm an Oath to the Constitution, it doesn't matter... you are illegal.

 

[Enforcer]

Should illegal immigrants be allowed to buy their way into citizenship? No. In my opinion, if you are not born here or swear/affirm an Oath to the Constitution, it doesn't matter... you are illegal.

Your opinion does not constitute legal fact. What you want is a form of National Socialism. You want the law applied in the same, exact way that the liberals want laws applied against gun owners. That is what is wrong with it. You want a majority of the people to decide that people are "illegal" predicated upon your hatred of them and without any regard for the fact that MILLIONS of people without papers are engaged in lawful activities in the United States: working jobs, paying more tax than you and depending upon their own efforts instead of expecting Uncle Scam to spoon feed them.

So, every Guest is "illegal." That's a slap in the face of every American that has foreign relatives that would like to visit here without having to become a citizen.

 

[erowe1]

Should illegal immigrants be allowed to buy their way into citizenship? No. In my opinion, if you are not born here or swear/affirm an Oath to the Constitution, it doesn't matter... you are illegal.

So you don't think people should be able to come here as tourists?

 

[erowe1]

And by "us" you mean "the regime in DC". Right?

No.......... I mean the federal govt

Who do you think I meant?

The federal government isn't "us," it's "them."

 

[erowe1]

Illegal immigration ... takes away jobs.

If you had any credibility before saying this, you don't any more.