Ky. County clerk makes a stand against feds

[P3ter_Griffin]

No problem, even in ICU for us.

Last time I was in the ER I had to send the nurse out to tell the receptionist to let my GF back.

 

[TheCount]

If another county wants to have their elected sheriff enforce no Muslims laws, or no Christians laws, or blacks, yellows, whites or reds then that's cool with me too...

People don't always play well with others and forcing them to under threat of federal edicts isn't going to end well....

There's a difference between "people don't play well with others" and "government used as a weapon." I don't have a problem with the owner of a business deciding he doesn't want to serve, as you put it, "blacks, yellows, whites, or reds." It's a completely different matter when a government decides that it doesn't want to serve its constituents equally.


Using Mrs. Davis as an example, I don't care what associations she maintains in her person life, but when she is working as the county clerk, she is no longer Kim Davis, she is an arm of the government. Her action or inaction is government action or inaction, and she should not have the ability to advance her personal beliefs or prejudices via use of government force.

 

[Deborah K]

There's a difference between "people don't play well with others" and "government used as a weapon." I don't have a problem with the owner of a business deciding he doesn't want to serve, as you put it, "blacks, yellows, whites, or reds." It's a completely different matter when a government decides that it doesn't want to serve its constituents equally.


Using Mrs. Davis as an example, I don't care what associations she maintains in her person life, but when she is working as the county clerk, she is no longer Kim Davis, she is an arm of the government. Her action or inaction is government action or inaction, and she should not have the ability to advance her personal beliefs or prejudices via use of government force.

You're claiming she loses her rights because she works for the government. She's no longer allowed to have moral objections and act on them through civil disobedience because she's a government worker. Was that your opinion on Snowden?

 

[Deborah K]

Last time I was in the ER I had to send the nurse out to tell the receptionist to let my GF back.

But they let her back, even though you weren't married, right? Ender makes the claim that you have to prove marital status in the case of hospital visitation, etc.

 

[TheCount]

You're claiming she loses her rights because she works for the government. She's no longer allowed to have moral objections and act on them through civil disobedience because she's a government worker. Was that your opinion on Snowden?

Only while working for the government. What she does outside of the office is entirely different.

Snowden did not use government as a weapon. The more fitting analogy is if Snowden, due to his personal beliefs that gays are destroying America, decided to use the power of the NSA to spy on gays, or add them to terrorism watch lists, or otherwise harm them via use of governmental power.

 

[tod evans]

There's a difference between "people don't play well with others" and "government used as a weapon." I don't have a problem with the owner of a business deciding he doesn't want to serve, as you put it, "blacks, yellows, whites, or reds." It's a completely different matter when a government decides that it doesn't want to serve its constituents equally.


Using Mrs. Davis as an example, I don't care what associations she maintains in her person life, but when she is working as the county clerk, she is no longer Kim Davis, she is an arm of the government. Her action or inaction is government action or inaction, and she should not have the ability to advance her personal beliefs or prejudices via use of government force.

Are you unable to differentiate between elected county officials and appointed for life federal officials?

The feds have absolutely no business proscribing the behavior or lack there of of duly elected county, or state for that matter, officials.

I personally do not want DC politics in the Ozarks, I don't want Ca. or NY either, just as I'm certain they don't want mine.

There's absolutely no argument you can present that'll convince me that some big city suit knows what's best out here.

 

[Deborah K]

Only while working for the government. What she does outside of the office is entirely different.

Snowden did not use government as a weapon. The more fitting analogy is if Snowden, due to his personal beliefs that gays are destroying America, decided to use the power of the NSA to spy on gays, or add them to terrorism watch lists, or otherwise harm them via use of governmental power.

Both Snowden and Davis believe that the government overreached. They both had the courage of their convictions. And they practiced civil disobedience. You're cherry-picking because you agree with one and not the other.

 

[euphemia]

So basically now we are giving favor to people because of who they sleep with?

 

[TheCount]

Both Snowden and Davis believe that the government overreached. They both had the courage of their convictions. And they practiced civil disobedience. You're cherry-picking because you agree with one and not the other.

Snowden's disobedience helped his fellow Americans. Davis's did not. Less harm, more harm.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

she should not have the ability to advance her personal beliefs or prejudices via use of government force.

Neither should SCOTUS, but that doesn't seem to stop them...

 

[Deborah K]

Snowden's disobedience helped his fellow Americans. Davis's did not. Less harm, more harm.

Anytime anyone disobeys government overreach, it benefits everyone. NO ONE should want a marriage license!!! Why do gay people want a state-sanctioned marriage? And don't tell me it's for the tax benefit. That's BS! We're going in the wrong direction here, people!

 

[juleswin]

Anytime anyone disobeys government overreach, it benefits everyone.

But Davis is the government in this case and the citizens fighting this govt can be said to be disobeying govt over reach to get into the marriage business

NO ONE should want a marriage license!!! Why do gay people want a state-sanctioned marriage? And don't tell me it's for the tax benefit. That's BS! We're going in the wrong direction here, people!

Marriage license grants you special privileges from the state which one wouldn't otherwise have without it. It is the same way nurses who are experienced practicing in other states seek a new license when coming into a new state. Its not like they have all of a sudden forgotten how to practice medicine, but they seek a license because it grants them the ability to work.

Also there is a problem with asking this question just to gay people. I mean, there must be reason other than mere recognition why straight couples by the millions seek this license

 

[Sola_Fide]

Snowden's disobedience helped his fellow Americans. Davis's did not. Less harm, more harm.

Yes her disobedience did help.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Anytime anyone disobeys government overreach, it benefits everyone. NO ONE should want a marriage license!!! Why do gay people want a state-sanctioned marriage? And don't tell me it's for the tax benefit. That's BS! We're going in the wrong direction here, people!

Did you get one? If so, why?

 

[TheCount]

Anytime anyone disobeys government overreach, it benefits everyone. NO ONE should want a marriage license!!! Why do gay people want a state-sanctioned marriage? And don't tell me it's for the tax benefit. That's BS! We're going in the wrong direction here, people!

Wow, you really knocked the stuffing out of that straw man. He may never recover.


Kim Davis is a person whose entire lifelong career is based upon licensing things that government has no business being in charge of, and taxing people for such. Don't try and pretend that she's a hero of the people trying for smaller government by refusing to give out marriage licenses. That is in no way the topic of discussion in this case.

 

[TheCount]

Yes her disobedience did help.

Who, how?

 

[Ender]

But Davis is the government in this case and the citizens fighting this govt can be said to be disobeying govt over reach to get into the marriage business

Marriage license grants you special privileges from the state which one wouldn't otherwise have without it. It is the same way nurses who are experienced practicing in other states seek a new license when coming into a new state. Its not like they have all of a sudden forgotten how to practice medicine, but they seek a license because it grants them the ability to work.

Also there is a problem with asking this question just to gay people. I mean, there must be reason other than mere recognition why straight couples by the millions seek this license

Yep-

Here is a boatload of info on these privileges- also as far as hospitals privileges, California is one of the fairly lenient- not all states are.

What Benefits Do Same-Sex Married Couples Qualify for Now?

There are over one thousand federal laws in which marriage status is a factor. These laws confer rights, protections, and benefits to married couples -- from Social Security survivor benefits to federal tax benefits to federal employee health and retirement benefits.

Here are some of the federal benefits that same-sex married couples may now receive (subject to the specific federal agency's rule for determining eligibility).

Social Security Benefits
Married couples get a big financial boost from certain Social Security benefit programs that have not historically applied to same-sex couples.
Spousal survivor benefit. A surviving spouse of a worker entitled to Social Security retirement or disability benefits may be entitled to receive retirement benefits based on the deceased spouse's earning record.

Spousal retirement benefit.
For retired married couples, a person whose calculated Social Security benefit is lower than that of his or her spouse may take half of his or her spouse's higher benefit, rather than receive the amount calculated from his own earnings.
Lump-sum death benefit. A surviving spouse gets $255 from the federal government to help pay for funeral arrangements.

Tax Benefits
Same-sex married gay and lesbian couples can now take advantage of federal tax benefits. Here are just a few of the benefits they may now receive:
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS. Filing a joint return may offer advantages over separate returns. Many unmarried couples lose thousands of dollars per year because they have to file separate tax returns with the IRS.

Creating a "family partnership." This federal tax law allows couples to divide business income among family members, again resulting in big tax savings.

Estate Tax and Estate Planning Benefits
There are a myriad of estate planning benefits available to married couples.

Estate and gift tax exemption. Federal law exempts a certain amount of money from federal estate taxes and federal gift taxes for all property left to a surviving spouse (currently the exemption is $5 million). The surviving spouse does not pay taxes on any amount he or she receives from the deceased spouse that's under the exemption limit.

Estate Tax "Portability." Married couples can combine their personal estate tax exemptions. This means that the second spouse to die can leave property worth up to $10 million free from federal estate tax. Unmarried couples do not get the "portability," so that the second partner in a relationship to die can leave only $5 million tax-free.

Life estate trusts. Married couples can create life estate trusts, including QTIP trusts and QDOT trusts, which provide distinct tax advantages upon the death of one spouse. For example, the QTIP trust allows surviving spouses to use trust property tax-free in certain circumstances. The QDOT trust allows a non-U.S. citizen surviving spouses to postpone paying any estate taxes above the exemption amount.

Veteran and Military Benefits
Spouses of deceased veterans are entitled to numerous benefits, including health care, death pensions, educational assistance, home loan guarantees, vocational training, and bereavement counseling.

Spouses of living military personnel may be eligible for health care, family separation pay, and relocation assistance, among many other benefits. For more information, see Nolo's articles on military benefits for same-sex couples and veterans benefits for same-sex couples. Now that DOMA has been overturned, same-sex married spouses should also be entitled to these services and benefits.

Federal Employment Benefits
More than 22 million Americans are employed by the federal government. Many of the employment benefits that the federal government provides to its employees and their families are tied to marital status. These benefits, which are part of the employee's compensation package, are denied to unmarried employees. Examples of a few of these benefits include:

• health insurance for spouses, and
• wages, worker's compensation, health insurance, and retirement plan benefits for the surviving spouse of a deceased federal worker.

Immigration Benefits
Many immigration benefits are tied to marital status. For example, a non-U.S. citizen may obtain a nonimmigrant visa or permanent residence (a green card), and later citizenship status, when engaged or married to a U.S. citizen.
A spouse has certain rights and responsibilities that are protected by law in most cases. When a family member is hospitalized in an intensive care unit, or ICU, however, the medical facility must walk a fine line between protecting the privacy and best interests of its patient and respecting the rights of the patient's spouse to visit and stay informed. These matters are often complicated by the complex legal issues that can arise as a result

Legal Rights of Spouses in ICU
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_8556491_legal-rights-spouses-icu.html

Visitation Rights
• Regular visitation with a patient's spouse is usually encouraged and is considered beneficial to the patient's recovery. Certain complex legal issues may limit a spouse's right to visit, however, and are often determined by hospital policy and individual state law. States that fail to recognize same-sex or common-law marriages often don't provide the same rights to same-sex or domestic partner couples that are provided to traditional married couples. Therefore, it's important to ask the hospital about its visitation policies so that you may provide whatever documentation may be required.

Right to Information
• Under federal law, hospitals, doctor's offices and health care facilities must limit what information they make available regarding a patient's confidential health information. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, or HIPAA, places strict limitations on what information may and may not be released without a patient's consent. However, the patient's spouse is usually considered the legal next of kin and is permitted to receive pertinent information relating to the patient's care and prognosis. These rights may be limited, however, in states that don't recognize the rights of same-sex couples and domestic partnerships.

Right to Make Medical Decisions
• If a patient should become incapacitated and is unable to make decisions on his own behalf, states usually permit the spouse to make decisions on the patient's behalf as the legal next of kin. In cases in which the couple consider themselves common-law spouses or domestic partners, however, states that don't recognize domestic partnerships or common-law marriages may require proof that the patient gave his domestic partner power of attorney for the partner to make medical decisions on his behalf.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_8556491_legal-rights-spouses-icu.html

Marriage Rights and Benefits
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/marriage-rights-benefits-30190.html

Whether or not you favor marriage as a social institution, there's no denying that it confers many rights, protections, and benefits -- both legal and practical. Some of these vary from state to state, but the list typically includes:

Tax Benefits
• Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
• Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
• Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
• Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
• Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
• Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

Government Benefits
• Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
• Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
• Receiving public assistance benefits.

Employment Benefits
• Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
• Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
• Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
• Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

Medical Benefits
• Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
• Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

Death Benefits
• Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
• Making burial or other final arrangements.

Family Benefits
• Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
• Applying for joint foster care rights.
• Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
• Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

Housing Benefits
• Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
• Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

Consumer Benefits
• Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
• Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
• Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

Other Legal Benefits and Protections
• Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
• Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
• Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
• Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
• Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
• Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Same-Sex Marriage, Civil Unions, and Domestic Partnerships
If you are in a same-sex marriage, you are now entitled to federal benefits under the recent U.S. Supreme Court case, U.S. v. Windsor. However, the rules for eligibility will vary by federal agency.

Many federal agencies, such as the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) and the U.S. Office of Personnel & Management look to the place of celebration (where the marriage was performed) to determine whether same-sex married couples are eligible for benefits. If you have a valid marriage, you will qualify for immigration status and federal employee benefits (if either of you works for the federal government), even if you live in a non-recognition state.

The same goes for the IRS and eligibility for federal tax benefits. In August 2013, the U.S. Department of Treasury ruled that all same-sex couples that are legally married in any U.S. state, the District of Columbia, a U.S. territory or a foreign country will be recognized as married under all federal tax provisions where marriage is a factor.

The Treasury Department further clarified that federal recognition for tax purposes applies whether a same-sex married couple lives in a jurisdiction that recognizes same-sex marriage (such as California) or a non-recognition jurisdiction (such as Texas). But the decision does not apply to same-sex couples in domestic partnerships or civil unions.

However, some federal agencies, such as the Social Security Administration, only recognize marriages that are valid in the state of domicile (where the couple lives) for the purposes of granting federal benefits. This means if you're in a same-sex marriage, but you live in a non-recognition state, you aren't eligible for Social Security benefits on your spouse's work record. If you live in one of the 14 jurisdictions that recognize same-sex marriage, you will qualify for benefits. This rule also applies to Medicaid and Supplemental Security Income, Medicare, Bankruptcy filings, and benefits under the Family Medical Leave Act.

If you are in a domestic partnership or civil union in any of the states that offer those relationship options, none of the benefits of marriage under federal law will apply to you, because the federal government does not recognize these same-sex relationships. For example, you may not file joint federal income tax returns with your partner, even if your state allows you to file your state tax returns jointly. And other federal benefits, such as Social Security death benefits and COBRA continuation insurance coverage, may not apply.

 

[Dianne]

Has anyone seen the new law that says same sex couples can marry? What is the statute? The SCOTUS ruled it is constitutional, but what is the statute and who wrote it? I know Obama knew in advance the decision was going his way, because it had to take days to get the rainbow lights upon his young boy lair ... But where is the law?

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

But they let her back, even though you weren't married, right? Ender makes the claim that you have to prove marital status in the case of hospital visitation, etc.

Only because I was conscious and able to tell the nurse to go get her. I'm guessing you misunderstand Ender claim. I have never heard of a hospital not allowing patients to have visitors.

 

[Deborah K]

Wow, you really knocked the stuffing out of that straw man. He may never recover.


Kim Davis is a person whose entire lifelong career is based upon licensing things that government has no business being in charge of, and taxing people for such. Don't try and pretend that she's a hero of the people trying for smaller government by refusing to give out marriage licenses. That is in no way the topic of discussion in this case.

If it is a lifelong career, then she was around long before this new government overreach. You've already asserted that you think government workers have no rights, but I disagree with you, they pay taxes too, and they are just as valuable as laypeople, if not more so, when it comes to fighting gov't overreach. She is doing it on religious moral grounds, but so what? That's her first amendment right. When slavery was legal, would you have imprisoned a postal worker who harbored a fugitive slave because, after all, he was a government worker violating the slave master's right to his property? If you lived in the south at the time, and based on your present attitude, yeah you probably would have sided with the slave owner.

It's the principle of the matter that's important here, not the injustice of some gov't worker who doesn't agree with gay marriage on religious grounds. Don't you get it? We don't have to like that she's a bigot to agree with her right to object through civil disobedience. I liken it to Rand's stance on the civil rights act - as appalling as segregation was - people have a right in this country to protest laws they don't agree with, whether they're public servants or not.

Oh, and this isn't a debate class, so I don't really care about offending your logical fallacy sensibilities.