Kirsten Gillibrand, Rand Paul shed bipartisan tears over Marine wife’s rape

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

Kirsten Gillibrand, Rand Paul shed bipartisan tears over Marine wife’s rape

Kirsten Gillibrand, Rand Paul shed bipartisan tears over Marine wife’s rape
November 7, 2013
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sens-gillbrand-paul-cry-marine-wife-rape-article-1.1509228

" As they listen to the story of Ariana Clay, a victim of sexual assault in the military, U.S. Sens. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), left, and Rand Paul (R-Ky.), right, are both visibly touched.

"WASHINGTON — U.S. Sens. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) and Rand Paul (R-Ky.), who stand far apart on the political spectrum, stood side by side Wednesday, tearing up as an ex-Marine described his wife's rape and struggle for justice.

"The Marine, Ben Clay, whose wife, Ariana, herself a former Marine, was attacked while she was stationed at a Marine Corps barracks in Washington. Ben Clay spoke at a news conference with seven other lawmakers who back Gillibrand's bill to move prosecution of sexual assaults and other crimes outside the military's chain of command.

{SNIP SNIP}

"But as opponents of the poposed law — including Senate Armed Services Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.), Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), and top Pentagon official — make their pitch against altering the chain of command, Gillibrand is struggling to win new backers."

 

[tod evans]

The idea the the civilian "Just-Us" system is less corrupt or more effective than the UCMJ is absolutely insane!

I say leave military personnel standing under the UCMJ and if necessary rewrite some code.

Civilian investigators/prosecutors and courts are a major problem now, adding military jurisdiction to them is a bad idea.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

I say leave military personnel standing under the UCMJ and if necessary rewrite some code.

That's exactly what this bill this does. This bill has absolutely nothing to do with bringing in civillian courts. Where would you even get such an idea? Did you read this article? Have you read the legislation? What would drive you to make such a mind-bogglingly pointless and uninformed comment?

 

[tod evans]

Ben Clay spoke at a news conference with seven other lawmakers who back Gillibrand's bill to move prosecution of sexual assaults and other crimes outside the military's chain of command.

That's exactly what this bill this does. This bill has absolutely nothing to do with bringing in civillian courts. Where would you even get such an idea? Did you read this article? Have you read the legislation? What would drive you to make such a mind-bogglingly pointless and uninformed comment?

This statement in the OP.

No I didn't click links, if you have something intelligent to add then why not do so instead of being a dick?

 

[whoisjohngalt]

This statement in the OP.

No I didn't click links, if you have something intelligent to add then why not do so instead of being a dick?

Ok, I'll add it without being a dick. You seem to be confused on what this bill does. Right now the rape victim's direct commander has authority over the case and whether or not to prosecute. This is called chain-of-command.

This bill will change that. The issue with a commanding officer making the decision on whether or not to prosecute a case is that they almost always decide against it because it's a lot easier to bury it then to dredge it up which makes the unit that commander is responsible for look bad.

His dickishness is somewhat warranted. You need to know the facts before you start calling straw men insane.

 

[eleganz]

military honor my ass, the military is way overrated.

I'm happy there are honorable people in there but a lot of the guys just really F things up for the good ones.

 

[jtstellar]

i think rand is trying to expose how stressed the military is mentally with the constant threat of deployment/actual combat and is trying to use the transparency and public enlightenment to make the mass think twice about sending armed troops for regional solutions

 

[ObiRandKenobi]

soldiers are supposed to be a little nuts. how bout not having hot chicks around? nevermind. 99.9999999999% of human experience is wrong.

in kirsten gillibrand we trust.

 

[Brett85]

Right now the rape victim's direct commander has authority over the case and whether or not to prosecute. This is called chain-of-command.

And that's definitely a problem if the commander was the one responsible for raping the woman.

 

[RJB]

When I was in the Marines there was a Sgt who would get his men passed out drunk and rape them. One guy woke up in the middle of it and that's how he was caught. The guys he had been with in the past were interviewed. I saw complete personality changes in them.

I don't know if none of them would press charges but the raper was quickly processed out without facing charges. He was escourted around base with armed Military Police for HIS protection. They guys he took out wanted his blood.

I didn't know the full details. Raped men don't talk, but the military, like every large institutions, likes to hide their skeletons.

 

[tod evans]

Ok, I'll add it without being a dick. You seem to be confused on what this bill does. Right now the rape victim's direct commander has authority over the case and whether or not to prosecute. This is called chain-of-command.

This bill will change that. The issue with a commanding officer making the decision on whether or not to prosecute a case is that they almost always decide against it because it's a lot easier to bury it then to dredge it up which makes the unit that commander is responsible for look bad.

His dickishness is somewhat warranted. You need to know the facts before you start calling straw men insane.

Where did you find the bill?

I read the linked article and from the tone of it I gathered that skirting the UCMJ was the objective.

If in fact not trying military personnel under the UCMJ is the goal what court do they propose to use?

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

This bill rewrites the UCMJ so that special military (JAG, etc) prosecutors decide whether to start a rape court martial rather than it being the CO's decision. Nothing is removed from the military.

If this passes, Rand deserves a lot of credit, because he convinced/worked with Gillibrand to remove/modify some really sloppy legislative language in the bill that also put several other non-rape crimes under this special-prosecutor system.

Look up the Gillibrand/Rand etc joint press conference from a few months ago when Rand and other senators announced their support for more details.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

Latest updates:

Kirsten Gillibrand Says Rand Paul, Ted Cruz Have 'Common Sense' On Military Sexual Assault
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/13/kirsten-gillibrand-rand-paul-ted-cruz_n_4263358.html

Kirsten Gillibrand Predicts Military Sexual Assault Bill Will Pass Senate
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/12/kirsten-gillibrand-sexual_n_4261271.html

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

soldiers are supposed to be a little nuts. how bout not having hot chicks around? nevermind. 99.9999999999% of human experience is wrong.

in kirsten gillibrand we trust.

Disband the military. No more state sanctioned rape, theft, or murder. Problem solved.

 

[tod evans]

This bill rewrites the UCMJ so that special military (JAG, etc) prosecutors decide whether to start a rape court martial rather than it being the CO's decision. Nothing is removed from the military.

If this passes, Rand deserves a lot of credit, because he convinced/worked with Gillibrand to remove/modify some really sloppy legislative language in the bill that also put several other non-rape crimes under this special-prosecutor system.

Look up the Gillibrand/Rand etc joint press conference from a few months ago when Rand and other senators announced their support for more details.

So what I read in your post is this bill is moving the UCMJ structure toward the civilian structure where a prosecutor is given unequivocal latitude on who is charged with what.

That is the primary problem in the civilian "Just-Us" system, out of control prosecutors.

Somehow I can't see the military adopting a similar system and getting any kind of acceptable results.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

So what I read in your post is that the military isn't overrun with psychopathic government employees who get away with murder. I happen to disagree -- government psychopaths get away with far too much, in my opinion, and more prosecution of government psychopaths is an important check&balance.

Because, here's the thing. There are a lot of ruthless military people, not just infantry, all around the world and in the US doing a lot of shady and illegal things. And a lot of the time they keep these operations together by terrorizing their chain of command with sexual violence and murder. And this bill includes murder. So a bunch of independent JAG lawyers investigating their hijinx would but a huge cramp into all the drugrunning, gunrunning, death squads etc etc. This freaks out the criminal warmonger scum in the Pentagon and that's why Lindsey Graham is threatening a filibuster.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

So what I read in your post is this bill is moving the UCMJ structure toward the civilian structure where a prosecutor is given unequivocal latitude on who is charged with what.

That is the primary problem in the civilian "Just-Us" system, out of control prosecutors.

Somehow I can't see the military adopting a similar system and getting any kind of acceptable results.

If the civilian justice system is the Just-Us system, the military justice system is the Fuck-You system. The CO who committed a rape will just dismiss it and probably rape that same person again, perhaps more violently this time around.

At least by shuffling it around a bit, the victim has the chance of inter-agency fighting to work in their favor. I'm really not understanding your stance on this one.

 

[Christian Liberty]

military honor my ass, the military is way overrated.

I'm happy there are honorable people in there but a lot of the guys just really F things up for the good ones.

There may be honorable people in there, (In fact, I'm certain they are) but that doesn't change the fact that the military is an evil institution.

And that's definitely a problem if the commander was the one responsible for raping the woman.

Yep. I don't know why I didn't immediately think of this, but I should have.

Disband the military. No more state sanctioned rape, theft, or murder. Problem solved.

lol, yeah. Although there would still be rape, theft, and murder. We aren't utopians here.

If the civilian justice system is the Just-Us system, the military justice system is the Fuck-You system. The CO who committed a rape will just dismiss it and probably rape that same person again, perhaps more violently this time around.

At least by shuffling it around a bit, the victim has the chance of inter-agency fighting to work in their favor. I'm really not understanding your stance on this one.

I agree, but I haven't been in the military (And NEVER will) so there's that.

 

[Christian Liberty]

The OP title is really dumb though. "Bipartisan tears"? Who wouldn't be saddened by someone being raped?

You know what, I just realized that I had my "mundane" hat on when I posted my original comment. I'm sure a lot of politicians wouldn't care if someone was raped. Lindsey Graham probably wouldn't care.

 

[tod evans]

So what I read in your post is that the military isn't overrun with psychopathic government employees who get away with murder. I happen to disagree -- government psychopaths get away with far too much, in my opinion, and more prosecution of government psychopaths is an important check&balance.

Because, here's the thing. There are a lot of ruthless military people, not just infantry, all around the world and in the US doing a lot of shady and illegal things. And a lot of the time they keep these operations together by terrorizing their chain of command with sexual violence and murder. And this bill includes murder. So a bunch of independent JAG lawyers investigating their hijinx would but a huge cramp into all the drugrunning, gunrunning, death squads etc etc. This freaks out the criminal warmonger scum in the Pentagon and that's why Lindsey Graham is threatening a filibuster.

That's sure worked out well in the civilian realm hasn't it?

Good golly, look at how many cops "special prosecutors" indict.

Hell for that matter look how many cops civilian prosecutors even present to grand juries.

Playing shuffle the deck with the status-quo isn't going to change a damn thing, in the military or in real life.

And if you found any reference to "psychopathic government employees" in my posts you're inferring.

But here and now I'll take the liberty to attribute psychopathic tendencies to prosecuting attorneys as breed and the branch of government that writes their check is irrelevant.

Or were you trying to portray prosecutors as some type of avenging angels that save poor abused people from other psychopaths?