Judge Napolitano "Immigration is a right."

[Ender]

You know, that's really easy to say when you aren't one of the ranchers who have been driven off of their ranches by the scum-sucking Mexican gangs that cross the border, trespass and trash their ranches and have murdered Americans.

There is a solution to that- called the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

So.....never heard of the Federal Reserve? The fiat dollar? The gold standard? Free enterprise? Real capitalism and not mercantilism?

BTW- we are NOT a democratic republic; we are supposed to be a constitutional republic.

We aren't a Constitutional Republic because of the new order our Founders established within The Declaration of Independence. Mexico is a Constitutional Republic. This is their second time around because Santa Anna threw out its first one while also abolishing the Mexican congress.
The reason the United States isn't a Constitution Republic is because our Founders established a new order altogether. They didn't do this by way of junta, as Mexico did, but by way of scrapping the prior traditional way, one established by the authority of the Church, of establishing a new nation entirely. Indeed, instead of using legal precedence, our Founders, pay close attention because this is the tricky part, utilized the scientific method of *Natural Law.
The conclusion in this natural law redefined a civilization to be one that advanced. They then ended with an analysis of their conclusion justifying the king to be unfit to rule. In deeming him a tyrant, they found justification for divorcing us out from tyranny.
This act established a new order!
Our Founders then remarried us to a more perfect Union, a necessary tyranny, by creating the U.S. Constitution. As the new order redefined a civilization as one that advances, by the inclusion of "all men" having been born equally endowed with the same exact business agenda for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the U.S. Constitution was created later on to advance the order. The natural law relegates the laws of The U.S. Constitution to be in service to the new order within The Declaration of Independence.
Order first and then the law. Not law and order. This is also a very subtle point. While we should be submissive to authority, we should disobey any law which infringes upon the new order.

(Example: A natural law says that mothers care for their children. The government passes laws infringing on this natural law. While mothers are submissive to authority, or else, they, by nature, have to disobey the law. In this case, the law is causing suffering and persecution. A region itching to rule as an empire will implement laws to the detriment of the established order with the purpose of relegating states back to the lessor status of mere territories and colonies.)

*The scientific method of Natural Law wasn't a process that came about in and of itself. To the contrary, as the established legal precedence involved in establishing a new nation came about by the authority of the Catholic Church, so was the same true concerning the process of Natural Law. Concerning God's judgement and the book of Romans, this is how our Founders managed to scheme us out from under the rule of tyranny. Unfortunately for those who hold law to exist for the sake of the law, their act established a new order as taking precedence over the law.

 

[dinosaur]

There are two possibilities. One possibility is that you agree with what I said that "whether there is or isn't such a culture, what this culture should be if there is one, and whether such a thing should be preserved or changed, are none of the government's business." The other possibility is that you do think those things are the government's business.

I'll be the first to admit that you've been utterly unclear about which of those positions is yours. But those are your only two choices.

I was keeping the argument centered around the idea that it is impossible to set up a government that did not reflect a set of values. Therefore, the point of whether or not culture should be embedded in government was a moot point...it is impossible for it not to be. You seem to want to make the argument about what I personally want, when reality cares nothing for what I want it to be. There aren't two choices, there is only reality. Culture is embedded in government, and no opinion of how I think the world should operate will ever change that fact.

 

[Ender]

We aren't a Constitutional Republic because of The Declaration of Independence. Mexico is a Constitutional Republic. This is their second time around because Santa Anna threw out its first one while abolishing the Mexican congress.
The reason the United States isn't a Constitution Republic is because our Founders established a new order altogether. They didn't do this by way of junta, as Mexico did, but by way of scrapping the prior traditional way of establishing a new nation altogether. Indeed, instead of using legal precedence, our Founders, pay close attention because this is the tricky part, utilized the scientific method of *Natural Law.
The conclusion in this natural law redefined a civilization to be one that advanced. They then ended with an analysis of their conclusion justifying the king to be unfit to rule. In deeming him a tyrant, they found justification for divorcing us out from tyranny.
This act established a new order!
Our Founders then remarried us to a more perfect Union, a necessary tyranny, by creating the U.S. Constitution. As the new order redefined a civilization as one that advances, by the inclusion of "all men" having been born equally endowed with the same exact business agenda for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the U.S. Constitution was created later on to advance the order. The natural law relegates the laws of The U.S. Constitution to be in service to the new order within The Declaration of Independence.
Order first and then the law. Not law and order. This is also a very subtle point. While we should be submissive to authority, we should disobey any law which infringes upon the new order.

(Example: A natural law says that mothers care for their children. The government passes laws infringing on this natural law. While mothers are submissive to authority, or else, they, by nature, have to disobey the law. In this case, the law is causing suffering and persecution. A region itching to rule as an empire will implement laws to the detriment of the established order with the purpose of relegating states back to the lessor status of mere territories and colonies.)

*The scientific method of Natural Law wasn't a process that came about in and of itself. To the contrary, as the established legal precedence involved in establishing a new nation came about by the authority of the Catholic Church, so was the same true concerning the process of Natural Law. Concerning God's judgement and the book of Romans, this is how our Founders managed to scheme us out from under the rule of tyranny. Unfortunately for those who hold law to exist for the sake of the law, their act established a new order as taking precedence over the law.

I believe that the Declaration is America's most important document. The Constitution is a Hamiltonian document that was meant to usher in a stronger central government- thus the need for the Bill of Rights.

The order that was established for the united States of America was not new; it was inspired by the Iroquois nation and their incredible Confederacy of Peace.

The Europeans and Iroquois of the mid-18th century were on more friendly terms. Many English nobles adopted the lifestyle of Indians and joined their nations. The Treaty Councils brought cultural exchanges in which leaders and statesmen met as equals to diplomatically solve problems and alleviate strained relations. The trade of Great Britain and the peace and prosperity of the colonies was dependent upon this alliance.

During the era, Benjamin Franklin published twenty-six treaty accounts and represented the state of Pennsylvania as an Indian commissioner. In the pre-Revolutionary period, when he and his friends were advocating a federal union of the colonies, no European model was found to be suitable. Franklin 's contact with the Iroquois influenced many key ideas for a new form of government = federalism, equality, natural rights, freedom of religion, property rights, etc. At the 1744 treaty council, by Franklin's account, Canassatego, speaker for the great council at Onondaga, recommended that the colonies form a union in common defense under a federal government: "We are a powerful Confederacy, and by your observing the same methods our wise forefathers have taken, you will acquire much strength and power; therefore, whatever befalls you, do not fall out with one another."

In arguing for such a plan, Franklin stressed the fact that the individual nations of the confederacy managed their own internal affairs without interference from the Grand Council.

Twenty years after Franklin's plan was defeated at the Albany congress, it reappeared in the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation. Franklin, Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington were all familiar with the Iroquois polity. There is also strong scholarly evidence that European philosophers such as Locke, Roussea, More, and Hobbes were familiar with the societies of the American Indians. The integration of this knowledge into their theories of utopias and natural societies further inspired the U.S. founding fathers.

 

[erowe1]

I was keeping the argument centered around the idea that it is impossible to set up a government that did not reflect a set of values. Therefore, the point of whether or not culture should be embedded in government was a moot point...it is impossible for it not to be. You seem to want to make the argument about what I personally want, when reality cares nothing for what I want it to be. There aren't two choices, there is only reality. Culture is embedded in government, and no opinion of how I think the world should operate will ever change that fact.

You are as unclear here as you have ever been. Set aside the mushy and meaningless language about culture being embedded in government.

Either the government's proper role includes dictating our culture to us, or it does not.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I was keeping the argument centered around the idea that it is impossible to set up a government that did not reflect a set of values. Therefore, the point of whether or not culture should be embedded in government was a moot point...it is impossible for it not to be. You seem to want to make the argument about what I personally want, when reality cares nothing for what I want it to be. There aren't two choices, there is only reality. Culture is embedded in government, and no opinion of how I think the world should operate will ever change that fact.

In establishing a new order by the use of Natural Law, our Founders set our former cultures as submissive to just one formal culture. What people have a difficult time understanding is how this includes the old pagan culture that existed prior within the colonies. This prior Puritan order has become a hideous problem endangering what is still left of the Union.
For example, if my daddy was a great king who became famous for writing a natural law setting everyone free while making them equal, then as the prince it would be natural for me to become corrupt by making all the people in the kingdom believe and do what my daddy did and believed. But the formal culture isn't what my daddy did or believed, but the little he wrote down concerning the truths as the new order. For those who live closest to the act, especially the relatives, this is a very bitter pill to swallow. Concerning the truth, as following after the truth will surely lead us to the richest of economies, so, is water, in the end, thicker than blood.

 

[dinosaur]

You are as unclear here as you have ever been. Set aside the mushy and meaningless language about culture being embedded in government.

Either the government's proper role includes dictating our culture to us, or it does not.

You are off the wall. ALL governments dictate a certain amount of culture because it is impossible for them not to. Even our constitution does. I happen to think that our constitution is right and that people who want to take away free choice and responisibilty are wrong. My vote is for the form of govenment that our constitution dictates.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I believe that the Declaration is America's most important document. The Constitution is a Hamiltonian document that was meant to usher in a stronger central government- thus the need for the Bill of Rights.

The order that was established for the united States of America was not new; it was inspired by the Iroquois nation and their incredible Confederacy of Peace.

It is almost like you didn't read what I wrote. When one established a government in the past utilizing legal precedence, something which was sanctioned by the authority of God through the church, then law existed for the sake of law. As our Founders utilized the scientific method of natural law, something which was also ordained by the authority of God through the church, then the prior legal precedence involved with establishing a new nation, something which existed forever, was over turned. The natural law then redefined a civilization as one that advanced, in that a civilization that only maintained itself was one in a state of futility as was the case with the long established dynasties in Egypt and China.
This established a new order.
So, when the Constitution was created, it, by the definition of the natural law, had to be submissive to the new order.
Therefore, we should be submissive to authority while disobeying any law legislated that would violate the new order.

 

[erowe1]

ALL governments dictate a certain amount of culture because it is impossible for them not to. Even our constitution does.

Where in the Constitution is that?

If your vote is for the form of government that our constitution dictates, then your vote has to be for a government that doesn't dictate our culture to us.

 

[torchbearer]

Tell it to the state, Torch.

the state reflects the morality of the people.
i'll tell it to the people.

 

[erowe1]

the state reflects the morality of the people.

I don't buy that.

Granted, telling it to the people is still good.

 

[torchbearer]

I don't buy that.

Granted, telling it to the people is still good.

If no one complied, the psychopathic authoritarians would be nothing more but raving lunatics with no power.
Most people get off on the power they execute on others.
The gun control debate is one group of monkeys wanting the lunatics to use violence against another group of monkeys.
The lunatics will only reflects the power given to them.

Now- you could argue that taking it to the people is useless.
That may be so, but i'd rather try every avenue prior to arms.

 

[AGRP]

I don't buy that.

Granted, telling it to the people is still good.

Hes right, although the mirror is broken. The reality on the ground doesnt match what is shown on tv. Ron had the numbers to win the election and the independent voter is surging. Theres a lot more Ron Paul/liberty people than you are led to believe.

 

[Okie RP fan]

There is a process. Abide by it.

Illegal immigrants are the first ones to completely trash a section of a city. Don't believe me? Not PC enough for any of you? Too bad.

 

[torchbearer]

There is a process. Abide by it.

Illegal immigrants are the first ones to completely trash a section of a city. Don't believe me? Not PC enough for any of you? Too bad.

speak for your own town.
the mexicans in our area are very respectful of other's property.
their children are well behaved and none of them cause problems.
they feel luck to be here and working for a good wage. they don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.
most of them are roman catholic, which works well with louisiana. so they integrate into the church and school communities.
The first generation folks don't speak good english, but their children do.

 

[dinosaur]

Where in the Constitution is that?

If your vote is for the form of government that our constitution dictates, then your vote has to be for a government that doesn't dictate our culture to us.

That is exactly the fallacy that I was trying to correct. The constitution is not a document free of cultural bias. I like the bias that is in it, and happen to think that it is the correct one to have. But there are plenty of people in the world who would like to choose a different value system than the one EMBEDDED in the constitution. Sorry about the word EMBEDDED, but it is the most accurate one that I can think of.

 

[AGRP]

speak for your own town.
the mexicans in our area are very respectful of other's property.
their children are well behaved and none of them cause problems.
they feel luck to be here and working for a good wage. they don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.
most of them are roman catholic, which works well with louisiana. so they integrate into the church and school communities.
The first generation folks don't speak good english, but their children do.

Theres a few trolls here whos job it is to stir up racial hatred.

 

[fr33]

There is a process. Abide by it.

That goes for gun control and everything. The fact that it exists does not mean I should abide by it.

Illegal immigrants are the first ones to completely trash a section of a city. Don't believe me? Not PC enough for any of you? Too bad.

Well maybe that's what you get for living in cities.

 

[Philhelm]

Is emmigration a right?

 

[erowe1]

That is exactly the fallacy that I was trying to correct. The constitution is not a document free of cultural bias. I like the bias that is in it, and happen to think that it is the correct one to have. But there are plenty of people in the world who would like to choose a different value system than the one EMBEDDED in the constitution. Sorry about the word EMBEDDED, but it is the most accurate one that I can think of.

Great. So then can you tell me where in the Constitution it authorizes the federal government to dictate our culture to us?