Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

[HVACTech]

There will be NO solution negotiated.
The solution happens at the end of the book,, when Christ returns..
And defeats the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

It will only get worse till then.

The whole purpose of creating the (Zionist) State of Israel was to put the Anti-Christ on the throne there.
And that is going according to plan.

It is there to provoke the third World War.

interesting... if negative take on the subject.
I have been wondering here lately myself, when Israel was "created" in 1948, why did they leave a small pocket of the dispossessed?
I mean, if you are going to boot people off of land, that they have occupied for around 2000 years.
to "create" a place for another dispossessed group....
leaving a small pocket for the "locals" is just asking for trouble.
what a frickin mess.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

To further support my comments on the nature of war and "war crimes", we have another thread on this forum titled "Slaughterhouse: Civilians die in Kiev's ruthless military attacks". These attacks are being supported not only by the U.S., but also by the NATO nations of the EU. What are absent, in the news media and from the U.N., are accusations of "war crimes". The Obama administration is trying to stop the killing in Gaza, but continue to send military supplies to Kiev.

One might justifiably condemn the act of war but not for "war crimes". War is hell.

There are legitimate targets in war. There are legitimate just wars. There are actions that step outside the boundaries of both. These would be considered war crimes. The conventions signed and generally adhered to, on the usage of cluster bomb munitions, for example, or various gases, or the restriction of certain types of ammunition and the condemnation of certain atrocities as war crimes is not some cliche bullshit such as, "War is hell" but is indeed founded upon sound legal theory and treaties. War is hell, alright-- I'm told, by the particularly ignorant and most ardent supporters of war. It's almost as if the cognitive dissonance and life long indoctrination in propaganda has had quite the effect. The mind can't often look at the mangled corpses of children, defend those actions, and recognize their culpability. So we get tired cliches of war is hell and the general attempt to blame the victims for their eviscerated fate.

And the Obama administration is full of war criminals themselves. They aren't trying to do shit.

 

[pcosmar]

interesting... if negative take on the subject.
I have been wondering here lately myself, when Israel was "created" in 1948, why did they leave a small pocket of the dispossessed?
I mean, if you are going to boot people off of land, that they have occupied for around 2000 years.
to "create" a place for another dispossessed group....
leaving a small pocket for the "locals" is just asking for trouble.
what a frickin mess.

This was planned long before Zionism was even created,, Zionism was created for the purpose.

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustionWe shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. It has nothing to do with the "Jews",, but uses them as pawns.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.
Watch and see.

Oh,, and BTW,,I am not antisemitic. I do not hate Jews.. in fact, I have a bit of affinity for that family line.
I do oppose those that sully the name.
Zionism was created by atheists,, of questionable lineage. They were not Jews.

 

[HVACTech]

This was planned long before Zionism was even created,, Zionism was created for the purpose.


Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. It has nothing to do with the "Jews",, but uses them as pawns.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.
Watch and see.

Oh,, and BTW,,I am not antisemitic. I do not hate Jews.. in fact, I have a bit of affinity for that family line.
I do oppose those that sully the name.
Zionism was created by atheists,, of questionable lineage. They were not Jews.

the way I see it, as an American, I am duty bound to respect all religions.
as a Deist, I do not have a dog in this fight.

whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration

whew! that was some heavy duty stuff you posted....

today, we live in a world awash with information. hell, I did not even know what a Deist was back in 07.

I believe it is necessary to understand the basic premise, of all the faiths based on Abraham....
to be able to develop a clear picture.
something fishy is going on..
peace.

 

[willwash]

I have observed many debates on foreign policy on RPF, DP, and countless other liberty-oriented sites. A trend I have noticed is the anti-Israel sentiments and the downright hatred of Israel.

Many in the liberty movement are so off on this issue for a few reasons:

1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has *almost always been our ally.

2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault. If you were offered billions in aid from the United States, would you say NO? Absolutely not. The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

In conclusion, the anger directed towards Israel for many controversial topics should be directed elsewhere. You can be critical of Israel for specific actions they take, just as you would be critical of the United States for specific actions they take. It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does. It is a subject that I think is a sore spot in the liberty movement that should be addressed moving forward. Just my take.

I welcome any criticism and/or concurrence with what I have laid out in this thread. I look forward to receiving your feedback, RPF.

1). It is precisely because of Israel that these nations don't like us. You are putting the cart before the horse. As to Israel being our ally, I have one word: USS Liberty

2). Not according to the zio fascist ADL and many others. Norman Finkelstein had the audacity to criticize Israel's intentional exploitation of holocaust history for national gain and for this "crime" not only was he labeled a holocaust denier, but his career as an academic was derailed due to Jewish pressure on DePaul university.

3). Where do you think Aipac takes it's marching orders? Tomorrow in Jerusalem, right?

4). See number 3

 

[Number19]

The modern concept of war crimes originated with the idea that a new world order could be created. Atrocities are committed during war, but the idea we need a world body to control and govern nations, and mankind, is more abhorrent to my libertarian consciousness.

 

[Number19]

1). It is precisely because of Israel that these nations don't like us.

This is not entirely correct. The Muslim jihadi movement would force Islam on all nations. They hate everything not Islamic.

 

[pcosmar]

The modern concept of war crimes originated with the idea that a new world order could be created. .

NO. It did not.
The concept of War Crimes has been around much longer.(1400s) Long before the Geneva convention.

And the Geneva Conventions were before the creation of the League of Nations.

The Hague Conventions were international treaties negotiated at the First and Second Peace Conferences at The Hague, Netherlands, in 1899 and 1907, respectively, and were, along with the Geneva Conventions, among the first formal statements of the laws of war and war crimes in the nascent body of secular international law.

 

[pcosmar]

This is not entirely correct. The Muslim jihadi movement would force Islam on all nations. They hate everything not Islamic.

The Jihadi Movement is a creation of the CIA,
They Radicalized Islam (Twisted it) to recruit fighters against the Russians.

It is a twisted misuse of religion for political purposes,,
Not at all unknown in the history of the world.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

This is not entirely correct. The Muslim jihadi movement would force Islam on all nations. They hate everything not Islamic.

What of the "democracy spreaders"?

How many countries are we in today? And I don't expect you to know that answer as Congress hasn't even a clue. Quite a few... Dozen.

I find it amazing that the multiple millions murdered at the hands of US foreign policy is overshadowed by groups of indigents whose philosophy often relies on 'our' meddlesome campaigns.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

The modern concept of war crimes originated with the idea that a new world order could be created. Atrocities are committed during war, but the idea we need a world body to control and govern nations, and mankind, is more abhorrent to my libertarian consciousness.

The topic of a war being just, thus leading to the discussion of war crimes and crimes against humanity has been discussed since, and probably before, Augustine and Aquinas. These aren't new concepts... that you can't use a war as an excuse to wantonly murder civilians.

The mental gymnastics of the few, lawyerly types, who actually have a comprehension of the atrocities leaves little to even be regarded.

What they rely on, and indeed often succeed in their efforts is the propaganda campaigns and the public's public school indoctrination.

 

[Number19]

What of the "democracy spreaders"?

How many countries are we in today? And I don't expect you to know that answer as Congress hasn't even a clue. Quite a few... Dozen.

I find it amazing that the multiple millions murdered at the hands of US foreign policy is overshadowed by groups of indigents whose philosophy often relies on 'our' meddlesome campaigns.

I agree. But what does this have to do with militant Islam.

 

[pcosmar]

I agree. But what does this have to do with militant Islam.

They are a tool,, a pawn in the game.

What you are seeing (aside from the propaganda) is a deliberately weaponized religion.
Used to recruit the weak minded and ignorant to become cannon fodder.

These fighters are not spiritual seekers.. They are more drug addled thugs and hoodlums that use a bit of religion to justify themselves.

 

[Number19]

NO. It did not.
The concept of War Crimes has been around much longer.(1400s) Long before the Geneva convention.

And the Geneva Conventions were before the creation of the League of Nations.

I don't disagree with anything you posted. But the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 were followed by the League of Nations (1920-1946). You also had the Geneva Conventions of 1864, 1906 and 1926 and the Geneva Protocol of 1925. You had the Nuremberg Trials of 1945 and the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal of 1946. The United Nations replaced the League of Nations in 1946 and finally the International Criminal Court was created in 2002.

You can't have prosecution of war crimes without a world body having the authority to do so, and with the political, economic and military power to enforce the decisions.

That body, today, is the United Nations and its goal is a one-world government.

 

[pcosmar]

That body, today, is the United Nations and its goal is a one-world government.

No dispute on that.

I was only pointing out that "War Crimes" was a concept that predated them.
Very seldom is the victor even charged with the crimes committed..

But then again,, and back to the question at hand.. The State of Israel was created by that same United Nations.

And the League of Nations had destroyed the Economy of Germany,, and set the stage for WWII.

WWIII will bring the One world Government into being,,,
It will be in the Mid East. and provocations are well underway for that. It is the reason the State of Israel was created.

 

[THX 1138]

This is exactly the kind of one-sided thinking that a couple here have been talking about.

I'm not on this site very much, so maybe I just haven't read the more balanced, truthful replies. So I'm not going to claim that no one ever criticizes the other side.

However, based on what I have seen, it's always the sort of thing you just said. "Israel is evil" "Israel is racist" "Israel is hateful, Israel discriminates" yadda yadda yadda.

Hello???? Am I in the twilight zone here, or what? If you don't realize how extreme the Muslim hatred is against Jews, and how they are raised to hate Jews with a passion, and how they do NOT want peace, they want all Jews dead..... then you guys are either willfully blind, or woefully misinformed.

Now before I get tarred and feathered, and chased off of this site.... I'm not pro Israel. I'm pro honesty and fairness.

I'm not talking about you in particular, it's a general "you" when I say that if you're going to talk about racism, hate, murder, etc... then you better talk about the Muslim extreme hatred, to the point of being diabolical. And how they teach their kids from the youngest age that Jews should die, and how they DON'T want peace. They never have. They have always wanted Jews dead, or out of the Middle East.

If you're going to talk about institutional racism, then talk about how in certain Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia) Jews aren't allowed to live there (while the reverse is not true) and the hatred toward Jews is woven into every aspect of their society. In Saudi Arabia there also is no religious freedom, if you are a Christian or a believer of some other religion, you can't openly practice it.

Although Israel is called a Jewish state, last I checked, Muslims, Christians, or others can practice their religion there.

How many of you here have lived in, or even visited a Muslim country? How many of you have been to Israel?

That's not a rhetorical question, I honestly want to know.

I've never been to either a Muslim nation or to Israel. However, I've met people who been to both.

You are right: There are Muslims in the Middle East that do teach their children to hate Jews and the West in general. There are also orthodox Jews in Israel that teach their children to hate Arabs - and the West in general.

I do not believe it is our responsibility to give even a shred of financial support or military aid of any to ANY of these nations.

 

[Number19]

No dispute on that.

I was only pointing out that "War Crimes" was a concept that predated them.
Very seldom is the victor even charged with the crimes committed..

But then again,, and back to the question at hand.. The State of Israel was created by that same United Nations.

And the League of Nations had destroyed the Economy of Germany,, and set the stage for WWII.

WWIII will bring the One world Government into being,,,
It will be in the Mid East. and provocations are well underway for that. It is the reason the State of Israel was created.

I am in agreement with all your comments except for the very last statement that "(this) is the reason the State of Israel was created". I won't go that far although I also will not dismiss the possibility. This gets into conspiracy theory, and while I enjoy reading in this area, I've found discussion to be unprofitable. And I won't go into the theological debate that these events are preordained.

 

[pcosmar]

And I won't go into the theological debate that these events are preordained.

OK,,

Then by what criteria do you have for any legitimacy of the UN created State of Israel.

I hear a lot about it's "right to exist" ..
What criteria do you have for the right or legitimacy of the United Nations to create a nation in the lands of other Free people?

I am curious..

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I agree. But what does this have to do with militant Islam.

Quite a bit, actually.

Are you aware of the founding of the Islamic Courts Union, Al-Shabab; that the United States trained many a mujahideen in bomb making and counterintelligence, that many of those 'Afghans' went off after the war and trained many more? What of the history of AQI or AQAP are you aware of? What of the relationship with the House of Saud do you know about? Are you aware of the no bid contracts and recycled foreign military aid that keeps dictators in power and American corporations busy?

What does this have to do with militant Islam? A lot. These policies are foolish, turn by and large entire populations against America, and promote a breeding ground for radical Islam to have a greater effect.

These half-wits are teaching them to build bombs.

 

[Number19]

... What criteria do you have for the right or legitimacy of the United Nations to create a nation in the lands of other Free people?

The U.N. has no right or legitimacy to create a nation in the lands of other free people. The United States should withdraw from the United Nations.

...Then by what criteria do you have for any legitimacy of the UN created State of Israel...

I accept Israel a a fait accompli. We must move on.

...I hear a lot about it's "right to exist" ...

No nation has a "right" to exist, not even the United States. Only individuals have rights. By the same token, Palestinians do not have a right to "Palestine".

Blacks do not have a right to restitution for the slavery of the past. Equally, Palestinians younger than 67 have no right to restitution for wrongs committed in the past. I would be open to discussions for restitution to older Palestinians removed from their homes in 1947.