Islam - A Debate

[Romulus]

I'd rather focus more on not bombing the F out of people. No matter their beliefs.

I highly doubt that you can learn about what's going on in the minds of millions of people on the other side of the world. The best you could do is find some information on some collectivist mindset that doesn't represent each and every one of the individuals thoughts and ideals.

This.

Religion is a side show.

The real issues are actions and reactions of crazy collectivists and their mindless followers.

 

[Pericles]

Thanks for the link! Excellent interview:

ARMSTRONG: Compassion is not a popular virtue. Very often when I talk to religious people, and mention how important it is that compassion is the key, that it's the sine-qua-non of religion, people look kind of balked, and stubborn sometimes, as much to say, what's the point of having religion if you can't disapprove of other people? And sometimes we use religion just to back up these unworthy hatreds, because we're frightened too.

MOYERS: Fear?

ARMSTRONG: There's great fear. We fear that if we're not in control, other people will cut us down to size, and so we hit out first.

From the beginning, violence was associated with religion, but the advanced religions, and I'm talking about Buddhism, Hinduism, monotheism, the Hebrew prophets, they insisted that you must transcend this violence, you must not give in to this violence, but you must learn to recognize that every single other human being is sacred.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_armstrong.htmlhttp://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_armstrong.html

If this is what passes for intellectual thought today, it is little wonder that the US is in the state it is.

 

[idirtify]

You cannot condemn an entire religion or culture because of a few extremists.

Is that the debate? If so, yes you CAN condemn an “entire religion”. Even if a religion contains a lot of good morality, it’s easy to condemn it if it contains enough lousy morality. Especially if you are me, since I condemn most all religions. Surely you aren’t going to argue that Islam teaches no aggression.

 

[libertygrl]

Should we also become educated on every religion and organization out there? Where's the instructional on Wicca? Bhuddism? Frolf?

Well if any of these groups were accused of flying planes into buildings in the name of their religion, and the media whips up a mob frenzy against an entire culture due to the actions of some fanatics I would say yes. Why not learn more about our "supposed" enemy? Would it be that big of a deal to pick up a book and think for yourself, rather than have Faux news tell us how to think? At least that's why I personally wanted to see what all the fuss was all about regarding Islam. Is it really evil? Do followers really want to convert us infidels and take over the West?? These are dangerous times. The media is manipulating the populace in order to keep us living in fear so that we continue to give up our liberties and support endless wars. Plus, I wanted to be more educated on the topic for debate purposes.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Well if any of these groups were accused of flying planes into buildings in the name of their religion, and the media whips up a mob frenzy against an entire culture due to the actions of some fanatics I would say yes. Why not learn more about our "supposed" enemy? Would it be that big of a deal to pick up a book and think for yourself, rather than have Faux news tell us how to think? At least that's why I personally wanted to see what all the fuss was all about regarding Islam. Is it really evil? Do followers really want to convert us infidels and take over the West?? These are dangerous times. The media is manipulating the populace in order to keep us living in fear so that we continue to give up our liberties and support endless wars. Plus, I wanted to be more educated on the topic for debate purposes.

Have you really felt the media has been saying that Islam is evil? I haven't. Especially since 9/11.

There is far more anti-Christian bias in the media (and movies) than anti-Islam bias.

 

[LibertyVox]

Have you really felt the media has been saying that Islam is evil? I haven't. Especially since 9/11.

There is far more anti-Christian bias in the media (and movies) than anti-Islam bias.

The anti-Christian bias is of a very different nature and different language. The MSM has treated Islam with disdain and bias like it always has including its favor of Israel etc etc. That is someting quite old actually. But the tone isn't as vile and caustic as one in the soc con media. No other group in recent times apart from the illegal immigrants has the honor of having that acceptable language of hostility associated with it then these two groups.

 

[amy31416]

Have you really felt the media has been saying that Islam is evil? I haven't. Especially since 9/11.

There is far more anti-Christian bias in the media (and movies) than anti-Islam bias.

Whaaaaaat? Do you watch left-wing media and Bill Maher's movie over and over again?

Every "terrorist" in movies or on TV is almost certainly Muslim (possibly Russian, but that's not as popular now.) In the proclaimed "Axis of Evil" 2 of the countries are Muslim, and the other is not really religious at all. The whole "Ground Zero Mosque" thing was promoted heavily on Fox as a terrorist base.

We inhabit two completely different worlds, it seems.

The only anti-Christian bias that I can think of comes from asshole atheists like Dawkins or Maher, anti-Muslim bias is everywhere in this country and many others.

 

[libertygrl]

Is that the debate? If so, yes you CAN condemn an “entire religion”. Even if a religion contains a lot of good morality, it’s easy to condemn it if it contains enough lousy morality. Especially if you are me, since I condemn most all religions. Surely you aren’t going to argue that Islam teaches no aggression.

From what I've been reading from Armstrong's book, that's not how Islam began historically. As with any religion, there are going to be some extremists that are going to pervert the original meaning of certain religious texts to suit their own agenda.

Believe it or not, we may have had a hand in this ourselves:

"The United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings....The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books,..", (Washington Post, 23 March 2002)

"Advertisements, paid for from CIA funds, were placed in newspapers and newsletters around the world offering inducements and motivations to join the [Islamic] Jihad." (Pervez Hoodbhoy, Peace Research, 1 May 2005)

"Bin Laden recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical mujahideen leaders. He also worked closely with the CIA, ... Since September 11, [2001] CIA officials have been claiming they had no direct link to bin Laden." (Phil Gasper, International Socialist Review, November-December 2001)

-Osama bin Laden, America's bogyman, was recruited by the CIA in 1979 at the very outset of the US sponsored jihad. He was 22 years old and was trained in a CIA sponsored guerilla training camp.

-The architects of the covert operation in support of "Islamic fundamentalism" launched during the Reagan presidency played a key role in launching the "Global War on Terrorism" in the wake of 9/11.

President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1983

-Under the Reagan adminstration, US foreign policy evolved towards the unconditional support and endorsement of the Islamic "freedom fighters". In today's World, the "freedom fighters" are labelled "Islamic terrorists".

-In the Pashtun language, the word "Taliban" means "Students", or graduates of the madrasahs (places of learning or coranic schools) set up by the Wahhabi missions ffrom Saudi Arabia, with the support of the CIA. Education in the years preceding the Soviet-Afghan war war largely secular in Afghanistan. The number of CIA sponsored religious schools (madrasahs) increased from 2,500 in 1980 to over 39,000.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20958

 

[oyarde]

Whaaaaaat? Do you watch left-wing media and Bill Maher's movie over and over again?

Every "terrorist" in movies or on TV is almost certainly Muslim (possibly Russian, but that's not as popular now.) In the proclaimed "Axis of Evil" 2 of the countries are Muslim, and the other is not really religious at all. The whole "Ground Zero Mosque" thing was promoted heavily on Fox as a terrorist base.

We inhabit two completely different worlds, it seems.

The only anti-Christian bias that I can think of comes from asshole atheists like Dawkins or Maher, anti-Muslim bias is everywhere in this country and many others.

Do you think religion would change North Korea ?

 

[BlackTerrel]

Whaaaaaat? Do you watch left-wing media and Bill Maher's movie over and over again?

Every "terrorist" in movies or on TV is almost certainly Muslim (possibly Russian, but that's not as popular now.) In the proclaimed "Axis of Evil" 2 of the countries are Muslim, and the other is not really religious at all. The whole "Ground Zero Mosque" thing was promoted heavily on Fox as a terrorist base.

We inhabit two completely different worlds, it seems.

The only anti-Christian bias that I can think of comes from asshole atheists like Dawkins or Maher, anti-Muslim bias is everywhere in this country and many others.

Name a few movies with Muslims as terrorists that came out since 9/11.

In fact I've seen it go the opposite. Muslim terrorists in books such as "The Sum of All Fears" and "Angels and Demons" were changed to Christians in the movie versions.

I can name more movies with the CIA as the bad guys.

 

[amy31416]

Do you think religion would change North Korea ?

I haven't a clue.

Name a few movies with Muslims as terrorists that came out since 9/11.

In fact I've seen it go the opposite. Muslim terrorists in books such as "The Sum of All Fears" and "Angels and Demons" were changed to Christians in the movie versions.

I can name more movies with the CIA as the bad guys.

Reel Bad Arabs

Sex and the City 2
From Paris With Love
Sleeper Cell
24

I understand why you only want movies since 9/11--because Hollywood cut wayyyy back on their villainization of Muslims--but you can't pretend that it hasn't been going on for decades, and continues to go on. Especially on Fox News.

And the CIA has earned their reputation as "bad guys." It's not like you can say that they're a "victim" of any sort of bias.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Sex and the City 2
From Paris With Love
Sleeper Cell
24

I understand why you only want movies since 9/11--because Hollywood cut wayyyy back on their villainization of Muslims--but you can't pretend that it hasn't been going on for decades, and continues to go on. Especially on Fox News.

And the CIA has earned their reputation as "bad guys." It's not like you can say that they're a "victim" of any sort of bias.

So basically in the past 9 years you named 2 movies (I never saw those two movies so I'll take your word for it). I can name more movies where the CIA is the bad guy (all the Bourne movies for starters). Sleeper Cell and 24 also have good guys and bad guys who are Muslim so cannot really be said to be "demonizing Muslims".

This whole "America is Islamophobic", "everyone is out to get Muslims" hysteria is over the top. While I think the NYC Mosque controversy is ridiculous - so is the "we are out to get Muslims" hysteria.

America is an incredibly tolerant nation. Even in the United States there are more hate crimes against Christians than Muslims.

 

[andrewh817]

To me Islam is no more or less offensive to science than Christianity. Since no god has been shown to exist, people just project their own feelings onto a god character. Like that reverend all over the news who said he'd pray about his decision to burn the Qur'an.... he's obviously going to get the answer he wanted because he's confusing his subconscious with the voice of a god.

That's one major reason why religion is so dangerous. Religious people think every thought and idea they have comes from god, and in the case of Christianity, the old testament repeatedly endorses slave owning, murder, and other atrocious acts of aggression. So either you're someone who cherry picks the positive things from the Bible and goes on about the love of Jesus, or you're a principled Christian, and you're an evil lunatic.

 

[amy31416]

So basically in the past 9 years you named 2 movies (I never saw those two movies so I'll take your word for it). I can name more movies where the CIA is the bad guy (all the Bourne movies for starters). Sleeper Cell and 24 also have good guys and bad guys who are Muslim so cannot really be said to be "demonizing Muslims".

This whole "America is Islamophobic", "everyone is out to get Muslims" hysteria is over the top. While I think the NYC Mosque controversy is ridiculous - so is the "we are out to get Muslims" hysteria.

America is an incredibly tolerant nation. Even in the United States there are more hate crimes against Christians than Muslims.

You said you wanted a few, and now you're bitching when I give you some examples as you asked. You must be lots of fun at parties.

And there were plenty of people who were Islamophobic about the mosque, the Koran burners, etc. Why deny something that's in your face--even if I do think it was somewhat sensationalized, so was Bill O'Reilly's "War on Christmas." Muslims have been portrayed consistently as evil murderous buffoons, I can't say the same about Christians.

I've never met anyone who's biased against Christians (with the exception of a few who say that all religion is silly), but I have met plenty who are biased against Muslims--many are related to me. And good god--hate crimes? Are you really going there? I can't even begin to imagine what you're talking about.

And why do you keep defending the CIA as if they're some poor, hapless victims of discrimination?

 

[Jim Casey]

Name a few movies with Muslims as terrorists that came out since 9/11.

In fact I've seen it go the opposite. Muslim terrorists in books such as "The Sum of All Fears" and "Angels and Demons" were changed to Christians in the movie versions.

I can name more movies with the CIA as the bad guys.

Hired Gun is a movie I saw recently that has Muslims teaming up with Nazis to nuke LA.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1152401/
The opening scene is pretty cool.
http://is.gd/fbspu

 

[robert68]

Name a few movies with Muslims as terrorists that came out since 9/11.

In fact I've seen it go the opposite. Muslim terrorists in books such as "The Sum of All Fears" and "Angels and Demons" were changed to Christians in the movie versions.

I can name more movies with the CIA as the bad guys.

NCSI is regular hour long TV show that is pro CIA and war on terror, and premiered September of 2003 on CBS, and has also had reruns in syndication for years. One of its regular characters is a Mossad agent.

 

[libertygrl]

Have you really felt the media has been saying that Islam is evil? I haven't. Especially since 9/11.

There is far more anti-Christian bias in the media (and movies) than anti-Islam bias.

I do agree that there's far more anti-christian sentiment but concerning the war on terror, they are equating the religion of Islam with terrorism and the result is the hysteria we have seen by some Americans out of fear and ignorance. But actually, I think mid-east terrorism has nothing to do with religion but more to do with our foreign policies in that region. I think the media is making it more about religion - West vs. Muslim world.

 

[idirtify]

From what I've been reading from Armstrong's book, that's not how Islam began historically. As with any religion, there are going to be some extremists that are going to pervert the original meaning of certain religious texts to suit their own agenda.

Believe it or not, we may have had a hand in this ourselves:

snip

Good luck defending any religion against accusations that it contains/contained aggression. If you want to defend something, defend people; not religion. The aggression contained in *original* religious texts is responsible for tremendous amounts of AGGRESSION throughout history. If a religion has recently become more civilized (less aggressive) it is NOT due to the nature of the religion; it is due to the nature of the people. IOW selecting the peaceful parts of religion and denying the aggressive parts is not a religious behavior; it is a logical behavior which violates the essence of religion, which is archaic, dogmatic and inflexible.

And you can’t make original religious aggression disappear by trying to redefine religion. No modern version of “religion” is more real than the original texts which underlie it.

 

[idirtify]

I do agree that there's far more anti-christian sentiment but concerning the war on terror, they are equating the religion of Islam with terrorism and the result is the hysteria we have seen by some Americans out of fear and ignorance. But actually, I think mid-east terrorism has nothing to do with religion but more to do with our foreign policies in that region. I think the media is making it more about religion - West vs. Muslim world.

Why quibble about which religion is more unfairly judged when religion as a whole is notoriously the most unfair judge. Try as you may to redefine religion as peaceful, you will never be able to go back and change aggressive messages (lousy morals) that are a large part of its foundation.

Don’t worry about criticizing (all) religion. Since it’s is not a people or a culture, it’s fair game for attacking. Don’t make the mistake of confusing the two. Religion is only a message, and no message is too sacred to question/refute.

 

[oyarde]

I haven't a clue.



Reel Bad Arabs

Sex and the City 2
From Paris With Love
Sleeper Cell
24

I understand why you only want movies since 9/11--because Hollywood cut wayyyy back on their villainization of Muslims--but you can't pretend that it hasn't been going on for decades, and continues to go on. Especially on Fox News.

And the CIA has earned their reputation as "bad guys." It's not like you can say that they're a "victim" of any sort of bias.

Just so you know , no , religion would not change North Korea. The only exception being that instead of just going hungry , you could pray about it .Maybe soothe the masses .