Is it possible to be pro foreign interventions and a Libertarian at the same time?

The fact that people even dare to ask this question proves that the libertarian movement has been successfully co-opted by the State.

Way to go, propagandists and gullible sheeple (pardon the redundancy).
 
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The fact that people even dare to ask this question proves that the libertarian movement has been successfully co-opted by the State.

Way to go, propagandists and gullible sheeple.

Asking questions is indeed anti-libertarian, intentions be damned!

Ban the OP and shoot his family (to death)!
 
lol @ Iran. The puppets who purport to represent those individuals residing within Pakistan already have those weapons, and we've destabilized that country quite effectively. Shall we strike them, first?

rhetorical question.
 
OP was playing devil's advocate with intention to discredit any possibility that a person could be pro-war and "libertarian."
When people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin are even remotely associating themselves with the term 'libertarian', it's too late.

Even here, there are plenty of people who use the term and have no idea of its stateless origins; tortured justifications of coercive violence being bandied about with little-to-no understanding.

Though, I suppose it was all but over during the late 70's/early 80's when the LP started to spread its tentacles.

Edit: But yeah, I could've made it clearer that my post wasn't directly aimed at the OP.
 
Question was about offensive pre-emptive attacks on countries that do not attack us.

No libertarian is for not defending ourselves when attacked.

Actually I think libertarianism is perfectly compatible with pacifism/quakerism sorts of philosophies.
 
Is it possible to be pro foreign interventions, pro pre emptive attacks on countries that do not attack us, pro elective wars and be a Libertarian at the same time?

I do not believe that a person can be a neocon and libertarian at the same time. Having libertarian mindset is way more than just loving porn, pot, abortion or same sex activities. It includes a firm belief in certain liberties and rights for all people and not just for people of ones own race.

What is your take?

I would say yes. In order to do this, you would have to believe that a greater number of people's rights would be infringed upon a greater degree without your intervention. For example, I would argue our declaration of war upon Germany was appropriate considering its treatment of political dissidents, Roma, homosexuals, and of course Jews.
 
I can see how several people here are trying to turn this into another thread about the EVIL jews. But I am going to avoid that.

Of course you can support the wars and be libertarian. The reason for support of the wars is key. If you honestly believe that Iraq and Afghanistan were a serious threat to the security of our nation, and that they were about to kill us all, then I think your ideas are perfectly compatible with libertarianism. That doesn't mean that you are not an idiot though.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee
 
I assume you meant "libertarian," rather than "Libertarian." If you did mean "Libertarian," then, sure, it's easy to be an interventionist and be a Libertarian. Just follow these two steps: 1) be an interventionist, 2) join the Libertarian party. I think that if you do that, you'll find that there are plenty of others like you there, and not many people who are libertarians according to the best definitions of that word.

However, one problem is that there's really no universally agreed upon definition of a "libertarian." To some people, a libertarian is anyone who's socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Some of that kind of libertarian, like Eric Dondero, positively love foreign intervention. But if you accept a more simple black-and-white definition of a libertarian, such as adherence to the non-aggression principle, then, no, you can't be an interventionist and a libertarian.
 
yes. i see nothing wrong with PRIVATE RESOURCES (blackwater/no Xi, Triple Canopy, other PMC groups) being contracted out to foreign causes.
 
If you are libertarian, you are for small government. It is quite a stretch to say you are for small government and not speak out angrily against this outlay of money. http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm. It is even more absurd to claim you are libertarian and champion it's existance.

With this confusion of the fundamentals, obviously the term has been hijacked and made totally useless and will suffer the same fate as conservative.
 
You said earlier no one would attack a nuclear power, though, because that nuclear power would attack back.

If Iran developed a "nuke," they'd have to get it delivered to the US somehow. If all they wanted to do was sneak a "dirty bomb" into the US, they wouldn't need all this development. If they want a more sophisticated, rocket-delivered weapon, then that means the weapon would have to travel from their airspace to ours. If not launched from our airspace, it would need to come from a base or submarine that would give us some warning and some idea of where it came from. This would mean swift retaliation or interception of the projectile. If it is a "traditional" large bomb, it needs to be delivered by an incredibly slow-flying bomber.

Iran's most immediate target, if it decided to have one, would be Israel because of proximity, size, and general history between the nations. Even then, Israel would proceed to retaliate as well. The only "advantage" in that scenario for Iran is that other nations in the region would then possibly proceed to attack Israel for retaliating against Iran.



This would, in theory, be a good time for a pre-emptive strike, but it would not come without consequences. Would an attack on those Chinese troops assembling at the border kill Canadian citizens by accident? What would Canada's reaction to that be? Are the Chinese there with Canada's permission? Are we having to liberate Canada as well? There are a bunch of questions to be answered, but this is one of those extremely unlikely scenarios that would make one say "Okay, fine, I'd consider some military action in that case."

The thing, though, is that military technology has evolved. Actions like this, if they were to take place, should be fast and decisive and that's all. I doubt there'd be any excuse for posting sentries and military bases on the Canadian side of the border, citing the potential for a repeat of the same situation. I doubt we'd occupy Canada, or even a chunk of it, for 10 or 20 or 100 years.

It's only when we get into "missions" like the ones we're in now that we get mired as a nation. Think about it. We went into Iraq to get all the WMDs. Well? We haven't really found any alarming caches of WMDs. So either we should take our troops out, or dedicate the ones there to finding WMDs. Even though this latter option seems incredibly futile, I'd at least have some respect for it since it would mean they were still trying to carry out the stated mission objective.

In Afghanistan we are "hunting down the terrorists who masterminded 9/11." That is a moronic objective. It's not like we have definitive authorship on a set of plans or documents (assuming no conspiracy, just for the sake of argument here). Is there a distinct list of people we are killing, and then we're out? Do we just hang around in Afghanistan until we stumble across Bin Laden? Does anyone in their right mind think that's likely to happen? Even with all of that known, the troops in Afghanistan are not spending all day looking for Bin Laden or whoever. They are "securing." Secure this place, and that place, and then someone gets "lucky" and a drone attack kills someone that, we are assured back home, was Al Qaeda's #3 in command. That job has an awful turnover rate.

* * *

There seems to be no really good standard for evidence that you can apply for a pre-emptive "national action," which is what a war like we're discussing would be. When Bush talked about WMDs, a LOT of people believed it. It didn't even matter that they weren't the people behind 9/11, either; people were convinced Iraq was a terrorist haven and needed to be flattened. To some, it wasn't even pre-emptive! It was "revenge and justice." One has to be very careful going down that slippery slope of pre-emptive war based upon good evidence. Good evidence for a pre-emptive action is also, by its very nature, incredibly urgent... which can also mean that the benefit of hindsight will reveal it wasn't really as reliable or urgent as it seemed at the time.

I doubt that retaliation would be held against a country by the others.The other countries would not like to see Iran nuclear armed.Iran is distrusted by all.
 
It's funny how the more conservative-leaning libertarians tend to be more in favor of interventionism, and also more morally up-tight and religious. LoL turn the other cheek. Not calling anyone out in particular, or even referring to anyone on this site, but it is a trend I've noticed.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker i saw once "When Jesus said to love your enemies, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean kill them."

I mean, most of recent wars were wars of defense - in defense of the wealthy, ruling class of the United States. The fact that anyone still includes these monsters when they refer to US society as "we" is really sad.
 
It's funny how the more conservative-leaning libertarians tend to be more in favor of interventionism, and also more morally up-tight and religious. LoL turn the other cheek. Not calling anyone out in particular, or even referring to anyone on this site, but it is a trend I've noticed.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker i saw once "When Jesus said to love your enemies, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean kill them."

I mean, most of recent wars were wars of defense - in defense of the wealthy, ruling class of the United States. The fact that anyone still includes these monsters when they refer to US society as "we" is really sad.

+a zillion :cool:
 
I can barely remember the 2000 Election besides "Bush is the lesser of two evils, we should root for him!"


I can barely remember the 1992 election besides "Bush is the lesser of two evils, we should root for him!"

I was also 10. He was running against Dukakis who had apparently let murderers out of PRISON as Governor!! How can we have a President who lets murderers out of prison!!
 
I can see how several people here are trying to turn this into another thread about the EVIL jews. But I am going to avoid that.

Of course you can support the wars and be libertarian. The reason for support of the wars is key. If you honestly believe that Iraq and Afghanistan were a serious threat to the security of our nation, and that they were about to kill us all, then I think your ideas are perfectly compatible with libertarianism. That doesn't mean that you are not an idiot though.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Ron Paul does not support a pre-emptive attack on Iran. The heart of the Ron Paul movement was antiwar and anti-interventionism and definitely anti-pre-emptive attack, and that's the main reason he became so popular.

I think the type of libertarianism you are talking about is the John McCain variety.
 
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