In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

Are "Acts of God" from God?


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Your interpretation of the Scriptures is lacking my brother and is based on the ideas of Calvin. The grace of God is involved in us coming to Him ('no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit'), but it is the LACK of the grace of God when we ascribe to Him evil.

But it wasn't Calvin or anyone under his influence who led me to these interpretations. I used to hate Calvinism as much as you do. And I still don't care one way or another for the label in any partisan way. But while I resisted coming to these views, I felt compelled to accept them through my study of Scripture, especially the book of Romans. I am definitely open to alternate interpretations, if I can be shown that they do a better job of explaining the text of God's Word. But you don't seem interested in providing me with any, only with insisting that I must be wrong by way of assertion and insinuation that my belief in predestination involves making God the author of sin.

Edit: Also, n.b. that your church has never repudiated the doctrine of predestination in any way such as what you are doing here, and in fact, some of your own statements strike me as treading quite close to ideas that the Synod of Orange explicitly anathematized. I am not a Catholic, but I find it ironic that you have tried to appeal to Church tradition as a way of dismissing the things I've said here, while the points I've been making are probably more in line with Orange than yours.
 
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Please name one theologian or saint prior to the Reformation who believed that evil thoughts come from God.

The Catholic occasionalist Malbranche immediately comes to mind. In fact, I would check him out. He simply came to the logical conclusion that since the act of causation had to ultimately originate from the first Cause, and created beings were not efficient causes, so God had to be the only cause. I think he was right. The Christian apologist Vincent Cheung also takes this view. Gordon Clark also had shades of this view as well...that God is the ONLY cause, not just the first cause.
 
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I think that is a good example of precisely the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that human language applied to God must always be analogical and not univocal.

How can the Bible be "human language" if the Bible was truly written by God Himself?

Saying that God regretted or repented of something, which we occasionally find in Scripture, does not mean that he experienced the emotion of regret that we mean when we apply it to ourselves, at least not in the exact same way.

Then why did God say it, or why did He put it there in His word if it conveys the wrong message?

It is an expression that applies a concept we are familiar with in our own experience to God, as a way of getting as close as possible to explaining what God did.

It does not do that for me; if anything, it causes the reader to come to the conclusion that when God said: "Let us make man in our image", that God has more humanly traits than He is given credit for. You are drawing your conclusion to fit your belief system.

It is also an expression that relates the story of the flood from the human vantage point. God's relationship to the world changed, and viewed from the vantage point of that world, it's God who changed, but if we were to step outside of time, we would see that it was the world changing in how it experienced God.

You are assuming that God wrote the account from a human vantage point, because nowhere does God say that He wrote this from a human vantage point. Why would He write it from a human vantage point when He is God?

If I am swimming against the current of a river and then turn around and swim with it, from my perspective the river repented, but from the river's perspective I did. It is similar to when we talk about the sun moving across the sky. There's nothing wrong with expressing it that way--the sun truly does move across the sky--but when we say that we're refering to what it does from our vantage point, and not from some absolute frame of reference.

I see your point, but somehow it doesn't fit into my perception of God. He is my God, and for Him to paint Himself as a human, makes Him a human, and not God.

Some of the other occurrences of God repenting in Scripture make this more clear. For example, in the book of Jonah, God sends Jonah to announce that Ninevah will be destroyed, but when they hear that warning they repent, and so God changes his mind and spares them. But it is plain from the story that that was exactly what God intended to do all along, and that not only did God know that, but even Jonah knew it, and the reason Jonah disliked the mission was that he didn't want them to be spared. So in Jonah, God's change of mind is clearly a change of mind relative to Ninevah, not relative to the timeless plan that only he knows.

Similarly, when Israel worshiped the golden calf, God said to Moses, "Now let me alone, so that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; and of you I will make a great nation." (Exod 32:10). But Moses begged God to change his mind (v. 12), and he did (v. 14). The thing is, the appeal Moses makes isn't some novel new argument that Moses dreamed up that caught God by surprise, it was repeating back to God all the reasons God had already revealed for why he would bring Israel into the promised land. So Israel experienced God changing his mind from their vantage point, but inside God's mind as God experiences his own thoughts (if I may indulge in language that pushes the limits of how anyone can speak of God even analogically), he did not learn anything new from Moses or come to think anything he did not already think.

Again, you are coming to this conclusion to explain why God regretted making man. Why can't you just admit He regretted making man? If when the Bible is read it always has a meaning that wasn't intended, why read it? Because if what you say is true, then God purposely confuses His readers; giving them impressions of what He is, or is not, that are not true.

This is why I have a difficult time with the Old Testament. It has God killing people, and He is always angry. Jesus on the other hand, is always showing love and mercy, and does not strike back when being reviled. He sets a better example of love than the God of the Old Testament, and that doesn't make sense, considering that Jesus said: "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".

Edit: The irony just hit me of you appealing to the story of the great flood for evidence that the God of the Bible does not cause natural disasters.

I don't believe in the Global Flood Theory; there is absolutely nothing that scientifically supports it. In fact, I don't believe many of the stories in the Old Testament; especially the ones where God is painted to look like a murdering megalomaniac.

edit: there is a story in Samuel I don't believe in. Jesus loved little children. He told them "Come to me!" Yet we have a story at 1 Samuel 15: 1-3 that has God ordering Saul to murder little infants. I don't buy it.

"1) Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2) This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3) Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”
 
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Yes. By the very nature of the comment if an act is of God then it must be an act of God. Personally, I don't know what would be an act of God. I consider natural disasters acts of nature. If I am to declare that God = nature, then God would be everything, which means nothing.
 
I'm back home, but I'm NOT spending my whole evening on this subject ! :)

If so, why did God offer Himself as a sacrifice? Was it just for masochistic fun? I don't think so as your view certainly isn't scriptural! Regardless of random acts of grace based on "righteous" acts, we're currently living in a period of grace for both the righteous and unrighteous without any qualification WHATSOEVER ;)

John 3:16 says:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

We have a choice to either believe, or not believe. This scripture does not support predestination.
 
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I understand the semi-pelagian perspective you are coming from, but it is not logical or Scriptural. Scripture is filled with examples of God using the evil of men to fulfill His perfect will.

Also, it is perfectly true that the Pharisees' evil thoughts came from their father, the devil. But in the perfect plan of God, He used their evil thoughts to accomplish His purposes at Calvary...

That’s moral relativism. Many people reject Bible based religion because of that.

Also, regarding the content of one of your previous posts, if God is sovereign over everything, all beings other than himself/herself are just a bunch of mindless robots.
 
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John 3:16 says:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

We have a choice to either believe, or not believe. This scripture does not support predestination.

That's exactly the verse that I used to use to contradict predestination too. Then I made a comment very much like what you just said to a Reformed friend of mine, and he replied that he thought it could be both us choosing and God predestining. I didn't have an answer for him. I'd never thought that was conceivable before. Now, I actually have trouble understanding why I ever thought there was anything about John 3:16 or any other verse that causes any trouble for the doctrine of predestination. After all, some people believe in Jesus and other people don't, and there must be some antecedent causes that result in that situation. You can't just appeal to "free will" as though this belief just randomly pops into someone's mind without reason, and randomly fails to pop into someone else's mind without reason. That view would result in more arbitrariness in God than predestination does.
 
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if God is sovereign over everything, all beings other than himself/herself are just a bunch of mindless robots.

That's the caricature that people like to paint of the idea of a sovereign God. But I don't see it. Do you think that there's something about minds that requires that they must respond to the stimuli that happen to them in haphazard ways, so that our thoughts and decisions just emerge from nothingness without cause, unlike everything else in the universe?
 
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How can the Bible be "human language" if the Bible was truly written by God Himself?

It was written by human beings using their own language. I believe that God superintended that process (as he superintends all that happens). But most of the Bible wasn't written through some kind of miraculous act of God the way the Quran is believed by Muslims to have been.

Then why did God say it, or why did He put it there in His word if it conveys the wrong message?

I don't think it does convey the wrong message. I think it's only when people appeal to passages like those to deduce doctrines about God that the human authors never intended to convey by those words that they get misinterpreted. That can happen with all books. It is especially easy to do when we're trying to communicate about God, since we have to resort to analogical language to do so.

It does not do that for me; if anything, it causes the reader to come to the conclusion that when God said: "Let us make man in our image", that God has more humanly traits than He is given credit for. You are drawing your conclusion to fit your belief system.

I suppose that I could say the same thing of you. I think that one difference between our approaches is that I'm trying to understand all of the Bible together in a coherent way, while you freely pick which parts you like and which parts you don't like, believing the one and disbelieving the other. Since you like the idea of a God who doesn't know the future, you like Genesis 6:6 and choose to believe it; but you don't like the idea of God being the cause of natural disasters, so you don't like Genesis 6:7, and choose not to believe it.

You are assuming that God wrote the account from a human vantage point, because nowhere does God say that He wrote this from a human vantage point. Why would He write it from a human vantage point when He is God?

Because the Bible was not written by God directly, it was written by humans and from their own vantage point. That is self-evident throughout the Bible.

Again, you are coming to this conclusion to explain why God regretted making man. Why can't you just admit He regretted making man? If when the Bible is read it always has a meaning that wasn't intended, why read it? Because if what you say is true, then God purposely confuses His readers; giving them impressions of what He is, or is not, that are not true.

I have no trouble at all admitting that he regretted making man, provided it is with the understanding that when we speak of God's regret (just as much as when the very same verse refers to his "heart"), it uses the word in a way that means something that is not identical to what it means when we say it of ourselves, but something analogical to it. That is not a case of saying something that isn't true any more than saying that the sun rises and sets is untrue.

This is why I have a difficult time with the Old Testament. It has God killing people, and He is always angry. Jesus on the other hand, is always showing love and mercy, and does not strike back when being reviled. He sets a better example of love than the God of the Old Testament, and that doesn't make sense, considering that Jesus said: "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".

I understand that, and I don't deny that I face some of the same problems when I read passages in both the Old and the New Testaments. But I try to harmonize the different pictures of God, rather than picking and choosing among them, and sometimes I just say to myself that I don't yet understand something in the Bible but one day I will, and try to withhold judgment about it. One major problem I see with what you're saying is that Jesus himself is quite clear throughout all four Gospels that his father is the very same God of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the Exodus, and of Elijah, and the God worshiped in the Psalms, and the God of the Temple in Jerusalem. This isn't just some occasional gloss in the text of the Gospels that one might suppose Jesus' followers mistakenly attributed to him, it is something that is so pervasive that we have to say that if anything at all about Jesus, as he is presented in the Gospels, is to be believed, then we must believe that he taught that his father is the very same as the God of the Law and the Prophets.
 
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eworel1...

Before I engage you..do you think that God wrote the Old Testament and the New Testament "word for word", or do you think that he might have inspired a few of the authors to get off their ass and do some serious research? What exactly do you believe?
 
That's the caricature that people like to paint of the idea of a sovereign God. But I don't see it. Do you think that there's something about minds that requires that they must respond to the stimuli that happen to them in haphazard ways, so that our thoughts and decisions just emerge from nothingness without cause, unlike everything else in the universe?

I think that cause is our choices. Our choices are not determined by God or by matter, but by ourselves.

Regarding God, is he also an "automaton"? If he knows everything, he knows the future, so he can't choose what to do.
 
I think that cause is our choices. Our choices are not determined by God or by matter, but by ourselves.

Regarding God, is he also an "automaton"? If he knows everything, he knows the future, so he can't choose what to do.

It's not whether He knows the future, it is whether He creates the future. You see, if He created Adam, knowing that Adam's offspring would be sinners, and that Adam would be a sinner, the fact that I have accepted Jesus into my life puts me way above Adam; who was created, and I was only made. I am more important than Adan, who was created by God, and because of this I want to be treated with such respect.
 
Its all very mystical and complicated you see, too complicated for me to explain, but I'll just express a pretense of knowledge on the subject anyways.

But really as hard as you seem to try and avoid the truth with careful wording, even this explanation of yours does not work.

An example:

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Bob the builder is omnipotent, omniscient, and timeless, and wants to create a fish tank. Bob creates his fish tank knowing that it has a flaw which will eventually (either in five seconds after he makes it, or five years after he makes it) crack and shatter, thus killing the fish. Bob of course knows how to make the fish tank in such a way that it will not crack and shatter. And bear in mind also that God says he loves the fish.

Did Bob just "allow" this to happen, or did Bob make it happen? Bob made the fish tank knowing it would happen when he could have easily made the tank last forever. Thus, in the instant Bob made the fish tank, he also made it to shatter. He made it to shatter, he made it shatter. He killed his fish, that he says he loves. And there is no "whoops", or "I guess I overlooked that" moment.

But what if Bob culls some fish so that other fish may thrive? Certainly a bleeding heart farmer could love all of his sheep, but some are for cooking, some for shearing, and some for breeding. If there is a supernatural force, death of an individual would not necessarily be a negative value. Indeed, if there is everlasting life, the supernatural force may be allowing those which are "killed" to experience utopia at an expedited pace, making the killing a positive aspect of the plan.

I honestly don't think there is a supernatural force, but once one is considered, all logic goes out the window in how it uses means and what its ends may be. Economics is a science that only can be applied to rational actors facing scarcity of time and resources. God, if it is, is unknowable.
 
It's not whether He knows the future, it is whether He creates the future. You see, if He created Adam, knowing that Adam's offspring would be sinners, and that Adam would be a sinner, the fact that I have accepted Jesus into my life puts me way above Adam; who was created, and I was only made. I am more important than Adan, who was created by God, and because of this I want to be treated with such respect.

IMHO, Yahweh did not know that Adam's offspring would be sinners. The serpent (the Satan) "tricked" them into sinning (well, more specifically, he "tricked" Eve, who in turn "tricked" Adam). If Yahweh had foreknowledge of what Satan would do, he would not have cursed "him" (Gen. 3:14-15), and the original Fall of Man could have been avoided to begin with.
 
Do you believe that Hurricanes, Earthquakes, Tornadoes are acts of God?

If you believe so, why do you think God sends them?

To ask a human why God does what he does would be like asking an ant about the acts of humans.

We can speculate, but I'm not arrogant enough to pretend I know.
 
Regarding God, is he also an "automaton"? If he knows everything, he knows the future, so he can't choose what to do.

How does knowing the future mean that he doesn't choose what to do?

I would rather model God as one who chooses what to do (or rather, who, in eternity past, chose what to do), and whose choices are certain to be what they are and are determined by his character, just like you said our choices are caused by us. The difference is that God himself is uncaused, and is the only entity in the universe of whom that is true, whereas we are not uncaused.

So, God's choices are caused by God, who is without cause. But our choices are caused by us, who have causes. With God, you can't extend the chain of causation back any further. With us, you can. Therefore, we are not the ultimate cause of our choices, we are just a proximate cause, while the ultimate cause must be something further up the chain of causation (i.e. all the way up the chain).
 
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Before I engage you..do you think that God wrote the Old Testament and the New Testament "word for word", or do you think that he might have inspired a few of the authors to get off their ass and do some serious research? What exactly do you believe?

As I said earlier, I believe both the Old and New Testaments were written by human beings who came from a wide variety of backgrounds and had a wide variety of writing styles, some of which involved research and others of which did not, and that God superintended the entire process, so that the result is a collection of books that uniquely stand as God's special revelation for us in that they point to God's chief revelation of himself to us through his Son, Jesus Christ.
 
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As I said earlier, I believe both the Old and New Testaments were written by human beings who came from a wide variety of backgrounds and had a wide variety of writing styles, some of which involved research and others of which did not, and that God superintended the entire process, so that the result is a collection of books that uniquely stand as God's special revelation for us in that they point to God's chief revelation of himself to us through his Son, Jesus Christ.

Good morning, erowe1,

I really enjoy your input. You have me thinking "What if he is right? What if everything is predestined?" The truth of the matter is I have no clue about anything, so, when I discuss this with you I am only giving you my opinion, which isn't much. You mentioned that at one time you didn't believe in predestination. What specifically changed your mind? I want to help people on this forum come to Jesus. My question: because it is already determined that people on this forum will either find God's favor, or they won't, am I wasting my time?
 
You mentioned that at one time you didn't believe in predestination. What specifically changed your mind?

It mainly happened while I was studying the book of Romans the summer after my freshman year of college. It was a change of mind that happened kind of gradually over the course of reading the book. But by the time I finished chapter 11 I realized that I had gone through a major change in my faith.

I want to help people on this forum come to Jesus. My question: because it is already determined that people on this forum will either find God's favor, or they won't, am I wasting my time?

There are different ways of looking at it. If you believe that you are supposed to help people come to Jesus, then perhaps that is the result of God working in your heart to come to that conviction, and perhaps that is because he plans to use you as his tool to bring people to Christ. If that is true, then you can take great encouragement from that, and you can know that it doesn't depend on your own eloquence and arguments, but on the power of God, who chose what is weak in this world to put to shame the strong (1 Cor 1:27). I think this is how God encouraged Paul in Corinth, when he told him, "Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to harm you, for there are many in this city who are my people." (Acts 18:9-10). It's possible that his people in that verse refers to people who had already believed, but from the context and the outworking of the story, it seems to be that he's talking about people who were yet to believe.
 
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