In God We Trust: Are "Acts of God" from God?

[WilliamC]

I honestly don't think there is a supernatural force, but once one is considered, all logic goes out the window in how it uses means and what its ends may be.

This is the crux of the religious debate to me. Once you allow for the inclusion of the supernatural you have abandoned reason, so it is foolish to use logic to explain why you believe in religion.

Simply say 'I believe because of faith' and I can appreciate that, even if I don't share the belief. But try to explain why your belief is correct and someone else is wrong then you lose me.

That's why, as an atheist, I see little difference between the belief of a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Pagan, or whatever. Just so long as the individual excersices his/her religion in peace, with tolerance towards others, then I'm good with it.

When they want to force their religion on me, well they've got problems of their own making, and I'll be happy to eliminate them and their beliefs if they insist upon it and it wont' bother me in the least.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I think that cause is our choices. Our choices are not determined by God or by matter, but by ourselves.

Regarding God, is he also an "automaton"? If he knows everything, he knows the future, so he can't choose what to do.

God does not exist in time. He created time. God does not exist in this framework of events that happen one after the other like we do, He exists in eternity.

This is why it is not appropriate for us to describe something that is "the future" for us and apply it to "the future" for God. God doesn't exist in time, He is apart from it. (That is actually why all these objections to God's omniscience and omnipotence are really ridiculous. God is not even bound in this framework of time like we are. He is above and apart from time and creation, time does not exert an effect on Him.)

 

[YumYum]

erowe1...thank you for your input. My family is friends with a pastor that we adore. He is an awesome example of what a Christian should be. He has the gift of prophecy, and everything he has predicted regarding my family has come true. There is one prediction that he made that bothers me. He told me that I would "die a bitter death", and he also told me to stop trying to win people's approval. This is a man of God. Is there anything I can do to prevent a "bitter death"?

 

[WilliamC]

Is there anything I can do to prevent a "bitter death"?

Carry a bag of sugar with you at all times?

But seriously, if you don't carry resentment as part of your emotional baggage and if you have forgiven those who have wronged you then this should not come to pass.

 

[robert68]

That's the caricature that people like to paint of the idea of a sovereign God. But I don't see it. Do you think that there's something about minds that requires that they must respond to the stimuli that happen to them in haphazard ways, so that our thoughts and decisions just emerge from nothingness without cause, unlike everything else in the universe?

I think there’s a part of the environment (or reality) of beings that “God” did not create, and that influences the choices they make, along with the environment (or reality) a creator may have made, and experience memory. Those influences aren’t nothingness and don’t make for haphazard choices.

 

[erowe1]

erowe1...thank you for your input. My family is friends with a pastor that we adore. He is an awesome example of what a Christian should be. He has the gift of prophecy, and everything he has predicted regarding my family has come true. There is one prediction that he made that bothers me. He told me that I would "die a bitter death", and he also told me to stop trying to win people's approval. This is a man of God. Is there anything I can do to prevent a "bitter death"?

If you're convinced that God himself is where that message comes from, I can't tell you otherwise. But if I were in your shoes, I doubt that I would believe that to be the case.

But regardless of what he said, it's a safe bet that you will die. And there's always something bitter in death. I think we all innately see it as something bad, and are right to see it that way. Rather than hoping that we can avoid death and its bitterness, I think we should look for something else to give us consolation in light of the likelihood of our death. If we are in Christ, then we will be raised again, and death will be swallowed up in life. What seems to us now to be so unbearable will one day have been a momentary light affliction in our distant past. Paul took consolation in this (2 Corinthians 4:8-5:10). So did Jesus, even though he intimately knew death's bitterness.

 

[YumYum]

Carry a bag of sugar with you at all times?

But seriously, if you don't carry resentment as part of your emotional baggage and if you have forgiven those who have wronged you then this should not come to pass.

You are right. Resentment eats me up. I don't want to die with resentment. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

 

[erowe1]

I think there’s a part of the environment (or reality) of beings that “God” did not create, and that influences the choices they make, along with the environment (or reality) a creator may have made and overall experience memory. Those influences aren’t nothingness and don’t make for haphazard choices.

But if God didn't create those things, they came from something else. And that something else either came from something else before it, or it was itself uncaused, like God. As you say, our choices don't emerge from nothingness, they aren't haphazard, they are caused by a chain of causes prior to them. Whether that chain of causes ultimately goes back to God or some other uncaused first causes that are not God, the result is still a deterministic one.

 

[YumYum]

If you're convinced that God himself is where that message comes from, I can't tell you otherwise. But if I were in your shoes, I doubt that I would believe that to be the case.

But regardless of what he said, it's a safe bet that you will die. And there's always something bitter in death. I think we all innately see it as something bad, and are right to see it that way. Rather than hoping that we can avoid death and its bitterness, I think we should look for something else to give us consolation in light of the likelihood of our death. If we are in Christ, then we will be raised again, and death will be swallowed up in life. What seems to us now to be so unbearable will one day have been a momentary light affliction in our distant past. Paul took consolation in this (2 Corinthians 4:8-5:10). So did Jesus, even though he intimately knew death's bitterness.

You know what is kind of strange? I was lying in bed, dying with a terminal illness, and I prayed to Jesus to help me; He healed me. Now, I find out that I am going to die a bitter death, so my question is: If I am going to die, why did God extend His loving mercy to me?

 

[erowe1]

You know what is kind of strange? I was lying in bed, dying with a terminal illness, and I prayed to Jesus to help me; He healed me. Now, I find out that I am going to die a bitter death, so my question is: If I am going to die, why did God extend His loving mercy to me?

That seems like the kind of question that can only be answered after the purpose has been fulfilled.

 

[WilliamC]

You know what is kind of strange? I was lying in bed, dying with a terminal illness, and I prayed to Jesus to help me; He healed me. Now, I find out that I am going to die a bitter death, so my question is: If I am going to die, why did God extend His loving mercy to me?

Maybe you have important things to do for other people before your time comes.

I'm not quite dying but I do have cancer so I think about it much. I've got lots of folks praying for me and I don't reject their kindness, but I think I need to be more proactive in killing the cancer myself rather than relying on mysticism. After I recover from my latest surgery three weeks ago I have to get some more chemotherapy, but I'm also going to try and do a Lance Armstrong and get myself into hyper good health as well.

But still, I don't tell anyone to stop praying for me, even if I don't pray for myself.

 

[Maximus]

I find the choices somewhat misleading, I believe that God created the world and continues to love the world into existence. In a sense everything is attributed to God because He created the world and its natural phenomena. However, that doesn't mean that everytime there is an earthquake that I think God is pissed and in the mood to kill people.

 

[austin944]

I find the choices somewhat misleading, I believe that God created the world and continues to love the world into existence. In a sense everything is attributed to God because He created the world and its natural phenomena. However, that doesn't mean that everytime there is an earthquake that I think God is pissed and in the mood to kill people.

But that's exactly how the OT authors saw it. When the people were subjected to natural disasters, disease, famine, defeated in battles, or put into exile, it was seen as God's punishment for turning away from his commandments. Again and again there was a sequence repeated throughout the OT: God makes a covenant with the people, the people eventually break the covenant, and God punishes them as a result. Then God forgives the people for their transgressions, they make a new covenant, and the cycle repeats all over again.

I think the reason why this is not a popular theology today is for two reasons: it makes God look like an authoritarian ogre, and science has come to explain the causes of natural disasters, disease, and the like, better than religion. So now religion has to come up with a better explanation than simply God punishes people for their sin. You get all these wild theories that God allows Satan to create evil, when that view is not directly supported by a plain reading of the Bible.

 

[YumYum]

God does not exist in time. He created time. God does not exist in this framework of events that happen one after the other like we do, He exists in eternity.

This is why it is not appropriate for us to describe something that is "the future" for us and apply it to "the future" for God. God doesn't exist in time, He is apart from it. (That is actually why all these objections to God's omniscience and omnipotence are really ridiculous. God is not even bound in this framework of time like we are. He is above and apart from time and creation, time does not exert an effect on Him.)

How old are you? How do you know so much about God? Does He talk to you?

 

[Sola_Fide]

How old are you? How do you know so much about God? Does He talk to you?

Huh?

 

[low preference guy]

How does knowing the future mean that he doesn't choose what to do?

I would rather model God as one who chooses what to do (or rather, who, in eternity past, chose what to do), and whose choices are certain to be what they are and are determined by his character, just like you said our choices are caused by us. The difference is that God himself is uncaused, and is the only entity in the universe of whom that is true, whereas we are not uncaused.

So, God's choices are caused by God, who is without cause. But our choices are caused by us, who have causes. With God, you can't extend the chain of causation back any further. With us, you can. Therefore, we are not the ultimate cause of our choices, we are just a proximate cause, while the ultimate cause must be something further up the chain of causation (i.e. all the way up the chain).

I believe our choices are an ultimate cause. While our physical existence is the cause of other things (our parents conceiving us and such), I think choices are different and do not have further cause. What arguments do you have against this idea?

 

[YumYum]

That seems like the kind of question that can only be answered after the purpose has been fulfilled.

You have incredible insight on the scriptures. How come you don't start your own church? You could educate a lot of ignorant, dumb people, including myself.

 

[YumYum]

Huh?

Well, you seem to have an answer to everything. At least erowe1 is working on his Ph.D. What credentials do you have that gives you any creditability?

 

[Sola_Fide]

I believe our choices are an ultimate cause. While our physical existence is the cause of other things (our parents conceiving us and such), I think choices are different and do not have further cause. What arguments do you have against this idea?

"Our choices are an ultimate cause" refutes itself because it makes no sense. How can "choices" (plural) be an ultimate "cause" (singular)?

 

[YumYum]

"Our choices are an ultimate cause" refutes itself because it makes no sense. How can "choices" (plural) be an ultimate "cause" (singular)?

Where did you get this? Did you make this up?