I statement making the rounds

NOBP among the RP supporters uniting is not what we are talking about here. This is what THIS letter starts out as. "Pay attention Republican voters." This is not talking amongth ourselves. This is threatening the individual republican voters out there.This is not talking it to the GOP bigwhigs this is talking directly to Republican voters. Despite what Affa said my point about canvassing voters and then telling them we are not going to vote your candidate is flat out what this letter is doing. That will NOT help RP get the nomination and if this is what people are doing then no wonder RP went from double digits to single digits. The GOP knows that the libertarian wing of the party is gone otherwise Obama would be lossing in every poll as bad as the economy is. Does it shake your resolve to vote for RP when you hear a republican voter say "if Paul gets it I will vote for Obama'? It doesn't me and it makes me dig my heal in stronger but you have to realize supporters of other candidates will have the same reaction when told that. It won't get Votes for RP.

I NEVER canvass and declare NOBP! This message is directed at republicans who are pressuring Paul supporters into promising to vote republican if Paul doesn't win the nom. I get it CONSTANTLY! I get them posting on my wall, demanding a committment to the republican nominee. If you're not experiencing it yet - you soon will!
 
I NEVER canvass and declare NOBP! This message is directed at republicans who are pressuring Paul supporters into promising to vote republican if Paul doesn't win the nom. I get it CONSTANTLY! I get them posting on my wall, demanding a committment to the republican nominee. If you're not experiencing it yet - you soon will!

In that case, I can see fighting fire with fire.
 
It is true no one really knows what will happen but when you try and sell only RP is electable you are going to have to agree on some common electoral idicators and that is polls. RP and Romney are the only ones competitive against Obama. That is the building blocks you are going to have to work with in convincing new voters.

Polls are one indicator they are not the sole indicator nor are all polls created equally (note here I'm not meaning to imply you don't know this, I am simply attempting to be clear regarding my stance).

One example most call centers are not allowed to call cell phones, that's not a manipulation it's simply a result policy created because of cell plans charging by the minute. However while the intent that created those policies isn't manipulative they still have an impact on the sample of those surveyed in the polls.
Combine that with the results of exit polling (one of the instances of polling that doesn't have the cell limitation) where in we see that Ron Paul gets nearly 50% of the youth vote while the rest is split between the other contenders.
On average a younger demographic is more likely to have a cell as their primary (sometimes only) phone. I trust the impact is clear.

Further in many polls considering the GOP nominating contest the sample group is specifically "likely Republican voters" which is fine on face but likely is usually determined by having voted previously in that party and primary. Again fine as far as it goes but that once more focuses the selection on certain demographics more than others once more tending to leave out youth (totally leaving out first time voters in many cases) and independents.

Yet another example (relevant considering the things I listed in my prior post) I have yet to see a polling methodology that specifically addresses "the Mormon factor" and again we liberty minded folks can say all day long that such a thing shouldn't make a brake someones vote but when 25% of those polled say it does that's not an insignificant portion of the population. Do the current polls include those people? Do the specifically exclude those people? Do they address the people who hold that view at all? Usually the answer is they have no aspect in their methodology so we cannot assess what percentage, if any, of the sample of a given poll contains people who hold that stance. As such we're left with drawing on that same 25% figure and asking the question "how can Romney overcome that disadvantage".

Narrative also matters as I'm sure you well know. In point of fact that's most of why polls matter, because they can impact the perception of the candidates.
I'm not saying "the polls have no effect" or "we shouldn't talk about polling" but I am saying there are noteworthy weaknesses of Romney as a candidate in the general election that polling alone simply does not address and those weaknesses aren't going away simply because polling methodologies fail to account for them.
Personally a have yet to see any persuasive arguments as to why Romney is actually a viable candidate in the general election against Obama.
What can Romney bring to the table which sways Indy and cross over voters? Or the less partisan youth vote?
Most of how he can differentiate himself from Obama will be shades of grey and even on the more stark issues he's usually changed his stance on them so they still don't provide him with much traction. Will those new stances (like his being against abortion) win over some voters? Sure, but will it motivate enough voters to go to the polls on his behalf to counter the support Obama has?
Obama has more showmanship than Romney
Obama has more funding than Romney (and won't have to start spending until the general)
Obama doesn't have to shift his rhetoric as much because he's only got the general not a primary to run (an advantage of being incumbent)
Obama doesn't have the handy cap associated with public impressions of being Mormon

This is not meant to be rhetorical, I honestly don't see what Romney can do to win the general against Obama. What does Romney offer outside the party line that will secure the majority of swing voters for him over Obama? And how does Romney overcome the lack of enthusiasm among even the GOP party line that can result in a lower turnout within the vanguard of his support?

Based on the information I am aware of Romney is a strong candidate for the nomination and quite a weak one for the general election.


As to Ron Paul in contrast, it is true some of this problems are things he'll have to face as well and it'll be a tough run regardless. From the list above
Obama has more showmanship than Paul (I love Dr. Pauls honesty and his consistency, but he's no smooth talker)
Obama has more funding than Paul (and won't have to start spending until the general)
Obama doesn't have to shift his rhetoric as much because he's only got the general not a primary to run (an advantage of being incumbent)
^^This remains true however Paul won't be shifting his rhetoric either and in fact has held his positions even longer than Obama so the effect is a wash if not in Pauls favor.
Obama doesn't have the handy cap associated with public impressions of being Mormon
^^Paul doesn't have this problem either

Beyond that no one questions that the support for Paul is passionate, and exit polls as well as general polls show Paul pulling in more votes from Indys, youth, and cross over democrats than any of the other GOP (so much so that some among the GOP have even taken time to attack him on that very point claiming he/his support is "conservative in name only"). Further Paul has 'put his money where his mouth is' on key issues that Obama campaigned on but didn't follow through. Things like ending the warmongering, opposing the NDAA, repealing the "Patriot" Act. In addition to that ending the 'war on drugs' is actually a big deal come the general election I know the subject gets a semi-taboo treatment a lot of the time during this nominating process but it's decidedly an asset during a general election because of how it plays for many key demographics that are traditionally considered either swing or democrat.

I'm not saying a Ron Paul nomination makes the general a foregone conclusion, far from it. But best I can tell from the issues the fact of the matter is that Ron Paul is a stronger candidate to win the general election than Willard 'Mitt' Romney.
 
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PolicyReader, I don't think anyone is saying that Ron cannot win in a head-to-head contest vs. Obama. I think some of us are attempting to dispel the idea that Romney cannot win in a head-to-head contest vs. Obama.
 
I NEVER canvass and declare NOBP! This message is directed at republicans who are pressuring Paul supporters into promising to vote republican if Paul doesn't win the nom. I get it CONSTANTLY! I get them posting on my wall, demanding a committment to the republican nominee. If you're not experiencing it yet - you soon will!
Where does it say that it is only directed at Republicans pressuring rp voters to vote rep in the fall? This is what I see. It has Vote for RP or we will make you lose all over it.
No, I don't need to do any of that. I only need to tell you that without me, you have lost. If you do not vote for Ron Paul in your Primary or Caucus, you are already defeated.
Honestly I am really done arguing about this. All I know is when this gets passed on to ordinary voters it will cost RP votes and I don't blame them for not.
 
I NEVER canvass and declare NOBP! This message is directed at republicans who are pressuring Paul supporters into promising to vote republican if Paul doesn't win the nom. I get it CONSTANTLY! I get them posting on my wall, demanding a committment to the republican nominee. If you're not experiencing it yet - you soon will!
What you describe is in fact (I think) what created the message I quoted in the first place. I don't know the author myself I just saw it start to crop up, but it did so shortly after the GOP "petition against Paul" started making the rounds in the same circles.
I think that directed at them specifically the text is quite reasonable.

I don't think any of the people in this thread (and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken) who are saying 'I'm NOBP' are actually saying "hey we should go canvass and shout this as a slogan at every voter we meet who isn't already for Ron Paul".
I think that Deborah is quite representative honestly, just because we'll say this here or to those who are trying to pressure our vote doesn't mean we'll chant it on a street corner.

Further as I've said before it's about *who* you're talking to, it really does make a difference. Using myself as an example this stance isn't worth posting simply because it has no impact whatsoever on the majority of people who will see it (they are mostly Indy and not that interested in the GOP nomination). In my case *issues* matter far more than candidate name dropping. But one size most certainly does not fit all and it's key to keep that in mind.

I reiterate the "one size doesn't fit all" message here because treating other individuals on this board as if their actions are being taking with *our* context is a flawed point of view. Each of us has our own context and the conclusions we come to will be based on that. Even if I know the perfect way to speak too and with people in my context it does not follow that I know how another supporter should go about talking to people in theirs.

The best we can do is share information, resources, and support in the hopes that it better enables all of us. Expressing doubts can be a useful part of that but I honestly don't see either chastisements or categorical declarations as constructive.

as usual, my 2 cents
 
I think that the truth is that there is an "No One But Paul" segment that exists. If I could vote in the USA I'd be one of them. They are the reason Ron Paul can win, they are the "type" of people that the Republican mainstream can count on attracting if Ron Paul is the nominee. It is a good thing to be able to point to them, to be able to say "There. There they are and there are more coming all the time. See what I mean? We can win with their help, but we can't keep them without Ron Paul".

.... and there they are. Right in front of us, the people we were talking about. To try and stifle them is to deny the truth of their numbers. At some point just saying that Ron Paul will attract voters that no other candidate can is an empty promise unless you can actual point to them.
 
Where does it say that it is only directed at Republicans pressuring rp voters to vote rep in the fall? This is what I see. It has Vote for RP or we will make you lose all over it.

Honestly I am really done arguing about this. All I know is when this gets passed on to ordinary voters it will cost RP votes and I don't blame them for not.

Do you believe the GOP can win without the Ron Paul supporter?
 
It's all cool

PolicyReader, I don't think anyone is saying that Ron cannot win in a head-to-head contest vs. Obama. I think some of us are attempting to dispel the idea that Romney cannot win in a head-to-head contest vs. Obama.

I wasn't thinking anyone was saying that, I simply was trying to address all parts of the post from klamath that I quoted. Since the concept of the comparative electability of Paul to Romney was raised I tried to cover the subject. I have the tendency to run on :o but it's not because I'm feeling defensive, I just tend to be overly verbose :p

Thanks for the consideration tho :D


ps ~ @klamath, I hope I'm not seeming hostile, I really like educated debate and you strike me as knowledgeable so I'm engaging you because I want to test my concepts and information not because I'm trying to take a shot at you. If that hasn't been clear thus far I apologize for my lack of clarity.

EDIT: With regards to Romney let me boil down what I'm saying.
I don't see how he's got a real shot in a general (honest statement) what are the reasons why he actually is a viable candidate?
Sub-point: I'm seeking for an answer that isn't grounded on "he polls well", more interested in *why* he polls well and information on *how* that translates into a solid shot against Obama.

I'm just presenting my analysis based on the information I have. What I'm not doing is assuming that my analysis is flawless or that I have all the information.
 
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Romney typically fares better than Ron in various polls when the two are placed in head-to-head match-ups with Obama. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...the_United_States_presidential_election,_2012 )

So you're saying you do believe the GOP can win without the Ron Paul supporter. Yes? That wikipedia chart doesn't include Paul for the most recent poll, and has Romney down 7 points from the previous poll, which puts Paul within the margin of error. And looking at that chart (for January), there's only one poll where Paul isn't within the margin of error. How did you conclude that Romney fares better?
 
Do you believe the GOP can win without the Ron Paul supporter?
At this point no. If romney picked RP as his VP then I think romney could win. Many of the hardcore won't vote for that ticket and would hate RP forever but I think the majority would break down and vote for the ticket especially if RP was campaigning around the country and telling his people he really felt he had a chance to effect a lot of change being VP. If the economy is is ticking up Obama most likely will win. If there is a lot of bad news not so likely. Historically the president losses if unemployment is bad but there is so much distrust of republicans that the Obama could win just on a vote against but this is just based on my opinion formed from 35 year of following electoral politics but logical arguments can be made against me.

The only common factor in an argument between the Paul camp and the non paul camp (Not the antipaul camp) is polls. Once either side deviates off the polls no points can be made on either side because it just deteriorates into personal opinions like mine above that can not be proved or disproved except by the results of the election.

This is the RCP poll average for Romney vs Obama. Obama wins it by 2.2

47.5 45.3 Obama +2.2
Here is the RCP average for Paul vs Obama. Obama wins it by 5.4


RCP Average 1/5 - 1/28 -- 47.7 42.3 Obama +5.4


At this point Obama would win even though earlier in this thread someone posted a link to gallops electoral college map and Romney beats Obama by a landslide. Gallop has a history of being the most accurate poll going back decades.
How ever nobody knows what will happen in the fall. There are solid arguments based on polls that RP could beat Obama but there is just as strong an arguments that Romney could too. There are very strong arguments that Newt and Rick would get beat badly by all evidence.
 
So you're saying you do believe the GOP can win without the Ron Paul supporter. Yes? That wikipedia chart doesn't include Paul for the most recent poll, and has Romney down 7 points from the previous poll, which puts Paul within the margin of error. And looking at that chart (for January), there's only one poll where Paul isn't within the margin of error. How did you conclude that Romney fares better?

I do think Romney stands a chance of winning without the NOBP movement but he will likely need - and get - some of Paul's soft support. The polling data presumably accounts for those two groups and shows Romney faring better than Paul in head-to-head match-ups vs. Obama. klamath's data regarding the RCP average supports this. If the NOBP movement were truly the deciding factor in this process, it makes sense that the polling data would show Paul ahead of Romney. Again, I just want to reiterate that I am for a strong NOBP movement, but I don't think it does much good to give the impression at this point that we are going to take our toys and go home. One exception might be to those who are voicing strong anti-Paul sentiments (i.e. "If you aren't going to play with us, then we're not going to play with you.")
 
I do think Romney stands a chance of winning without the NOBP movement but he will likely need - and get - some of Paul's soft support. The polling data presumably accounts for those two groups and shows Romney faring better than Paul in head-to-head match-ups vs. Obama. klamath's data regarding the RCP average supports this. If the NOBP movement were truly the deciding factor in this process, it makes sense that the polling data would show Paul ahead of Romney. Again, I just want to reiterate that I am for a strong NOBP movement, but I don't think it does much good to give the impression at this point that we are going to take our toys and go home. One exception might be to those who are voicing strong anti-Paul sentiments (i.e. "If you aren't going to play with us, then we're not going to play with you.")
Seriously, it's not "that we are going to take our toys and go home. OR "If you aren't going to play with us, then we're not going to play with you." Everybody that is awake KNOWS what is going on.

It is, "If your guy is going to keep stealing from me to pay for your welfare and warfare programs, then to hell with you and him." Let Obama deal with it.

Spending is a tax. NoOneButPaul is planning to end the wars and cut spending.
 
2008 eight poll numbers from Caucus states (an example of why polls alone cannot be an accurate indicator)
Nevada Minnesota Colorado
Polls Romney +5.0% McCain +21% Romney +19%
Result Romney +37% Romney +24% Romney +42%
Error 32% 45% 23%

I may be considered to be beating a dead horse here but having worked in polling I cringe whenever they are used as the sole indicator.

Frequent Mistakes in the use of Polls
A frequent mistake is to dismiss the margin of error, if two or more thing (in this case candidates) are within the margin of error than analyzing the numbers as if they are different is misleading (even if the literal numbers listed are in fact different)

Another frequent mistake is to compare different polls straight across without including the methodologies. This is not apples to apples this is apples to pares. Assuming that simply because a factor is a relevant electoral consideration that it has been accounted for in the polls is incorrect, one must look to the methodology to see how the polling was done (i.e. who was polled and what methods were used to construct that sample, in other words what group that sample is representative of).

Polls are like the weather report, the farther away the event they are trying to predict the less accurate they can be counted on to be (I think for the most part people do indeed remember this, but since it speaks to the above point about not comparing polls straight across I find it worth a mention) This also means that aggregate polls can be useful for plotting trends but should not be taken as an accurate representation of the current sentiment. (this makes them both more and less useful than single polls but for differing reasons).

I have to run out the door so I'll sum up,
Polls are a useful tool but any consideration of their data without application of their methodology and margin of error will be flawed.
Further while polls are a valid tool without providing a context into which their data is projected that usefulness is minimal at best (and the further away the event the less accurate they can be counted on to be)
 
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