"I Don't Want Free Will" by Martin Luther

[Sola_Fide]

So if you believe, it's because you were picked or chosen? If you don't believe then you wander around lost unless you're picked to become a believer? Or you don't get picked and you're kind of just discarded?

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[July]

So, then, it sounds like it is to say that grace isn't something you can 'try' to make happen. Sort of like love... You can't make or force someone to love you, and if you were to try, it's contrived, right? You can't be saved through works, because it is contrived--the more you try, the more you are clinging/craving/desiring (of salvation). That act of grasping is the root of suffering, and leads to sin. So one could only be possibly open to experiencing grace, if they have let go completely? It's not something you can choose. We are all fallen and all sinners, and it's impossible to live a Christ like life, so grace could only come the more that is realized? It's futile.

 

[PursuePeace]

Originally Posted by VIDEODROME
So if you believe, it's because you were picked or chosen? If you don't believe then you wander around lost unless you're picked to become a believer? Or you don't get picked and you're kind of just discarded?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Sola_Fide.. If you truly believe this, how does this belief assist you in loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Sola_Fide.. If you truly believe this, how does this belief assist you in loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself?

To know that the Father chose me and knew me before the world began and sent His Son to be a propitiation for my sins so that I can be with Him forever is a strong motivator in my love for Him.

Also, to know that the wicked will receive judgement is comforting. That is why atheism is the most depressing worldview there is. In atheism, there is no judgement for the wicked. And let me tell you, what you believe governs the way you act. When men believe that there is no final judgement for their sin, it changes them.

But you ask the question as if Christianity is a self-help program or something that has as its main focus how to make us feel good or help us in some way. That is a very anthropocentric view of things. The Biblical view is theopocentric. God saves a people unto Himself for His own self-glorification. Salvation is God glorifying Himself.

 

[PursuePeace]

Hi there,

To know that the Father chose me and knew before the world began and sent His Son to be a propitiation for my sins so that I can be with Him forever is a strong motivator in my love for Him.

(emphasis mine) What about other people? How does the belief that God will discard some of your neighbors (other human beings) assist you in loving God and loving your neighbor?

But you ask the question as if Christianity is a self-help program or something that has as its main focus how to make us feel good or help us in some way. That is a very anthropocentric view of things. The Biblical view is theopocentric. God saves a people unto Himself for His own self-glorification. Salvation is God glorifying Himself.

I'm not really sure what angle you are viewing my question that would make you think that is where I'm coming from??

The two great commands.. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. I'm only asking how your belief as outlined below:

Originally Posted by VIDEODROME
So if you believe, it's because you were picked or chosen? If you don't believe then you wander around lost unless you're picked to become a believer? Or you don't get picked and you're kind of just discarded?

Originally Posted by Sola_Fide
Yes, yes, and yes.

assists you in loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself? Particularly the last question Videodrome asked, in which you answered yes.


(maybe I'm wording this funny and you don't understand what I'm asking? That's entirely possible. It's after 4am and I'm way past my bedtime..)


peace...

 

[matt0611]

The way I think about it is, if God knows the future (and he has to because he is all knowing) then any other system breaks down when you "free will" into things.

God knows everything we are going to do, the Bible teaches it pretty plainly. Yes, we do have the *choice* to do things or not, as in God is not using physical force to stop us from choosing things but its just that things are predetermined in a sense. There is no one that is going to hell that wanted to be with God and was stopped by him from doing so.

An excerpt of one of the my favorite Psalms about how well God knows us because he made us:


Psalm 139

1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand —
when I awake, I am still with you


Also, Romans 9:19: "One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?

 

[robert9712000]

I think people are looking at why and how one becomes saved all wrong.

First you have to understand a couple things.

1. God is the most true representation of what Love is.
2. God is also firm in his righteousness and won't let any evil go undealt with.

So with those two things in mind how does God apply both at the same time.

Well lets look next at the quote that everyone knows John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The key word in that quote is believeth,ill come back to that later.

God loves his creation of man and this world but can't let the evil in this world go undealt with.Knowing that mans will is weak he gave us a way to overcome sin.

So why didn't God just create sinless beings and then problem solved,right?

Well this is my opinion but i feel the reason God created man is for fellowship,but he desired a sincere relationship with someone who shared his same desire for the things of righteousness.

Which then leads to the only possible answer to accomplish it.Man must have free will,else there choice to follow the things of righteousness isn't sincere.So to create a environment of which man is given the choice between good and evil God set man upon the earth and allowed Satan to tempt man.

The problem that people were having though is that they were focusing on the wrong thing.Remember Gods desire is to create a person that desires the things of righteousness sincerely,but how to achieve that?After placing us on earth with the free will to chose good or evil ,he then took it a step farther.He didnt leave us on our own and just hope that we chose good over evil.He then started to teach us why and how good is so much better than evil,but in the process of teaching us he still gave us free will.

This is where man started to focus on the wrong thing.They were focusing on the act of sin but were not the substance of why sin is wrong.His establishment of the law wasn't ment to be a do or don't do book but a guide to lead us to righteousness.

Galatians 3
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The next thing to understand is knowledge in of itself doesn't make one righteous but is part of a process that leads to righteousness.The thing i realized about the truth in the law was that while it revealed the sin that was in me it didn't make me better.As a matter a fact as i tried to defeat the sin with in me i quickly figured out that i wasn't able to

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The next step towards righteousness of which is the whole goal of God for us ,is that through knowledge and trying to do whats right we quickly realize it is hopeless to attain righteousness by ourselves,which leads to my final part in that now in our hopelessness our only option left is Faith that God will make us righteousness.

Christ came so we would not have to focus anymore on the law because sin is taken care of,but we can now without the persecution of the judgement of sin can focus on developing the spirit of righteousness in meekness because we are now humble and confident in the loving mercy's of God.

So the short answer is yes we have free will.All you have to do is accept and believe the gift of mercy that God has offered you .

 

[VIDEODROME]

I think the idea in this thread is that a person can't come to God on their own. God has to bestow grace on a person and sort of choose them. Because God has done this they become a true believer.

It is also suggest God may select some and not others. Others not selected will not become believers or followers because God didn't choose them.

 

[roho76]

I don't understand "free will". If "God" has already planned everything for you, how can you be responsible for your actions? You may have believed that you have free will but the choice that "you" chose was already chosen for you. How can you choose against the choice that was already chosen for you? How can you go to hell for actions that were planned for you by God before you were even born?

Just have faith and believe is not good enough for me. Plus it seems anybody in a position of power uses religion to manipulate and deceive the general population. IDK the whole thing has been too bastardized for me too care. If "God" made me and want's to throw me in Hell for something he already knew and planned for me to do then what am I going to do about it?

 

[Sola_Fide]

I think people are looking at why and how one becomes saved all wrong.

First you have to understand a couple things.

1. God is the most true representation of what Love is.
2. God is also firm in his righteousness and won't let any evil go undealt with.

So with those two things in mind how does God apply both at the same time.

Well lets look next at the quote that everyone knows John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The key word in that quote is believeth,ill come back to that later.

Yes, all the ones believing will have eternal life. John 3:16 says nothing about who has the ability to be saved, it only says that the ones who believe will have eternal life.

God loves his creation of man and this world but can't let the evil in this world go undealt with.Knowing that mans will is weak he gave us a way to overcome sin.

I don't know. God DID love His creation. He made it and He said it was good. But we are at enmity with Him. Romans 1 says the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness.

So why didn't God just create sinless beings and then problem solved,right?

Romans chapter 9 tells us that God has a purpose for creating and judging the wicked. It is so that the objects of His grace will truly know what grace is, and that His justice in this world will be glorified.

Well this is my opinion but i feel the reason God created man is for fellowship,but he desired a sincere relationship with someone who shared his same desire for the things of righteousness.

This is impossible because if God wanted or needed fellowship, then He lacked something. But God is perfect and doesn't lack anything. Also, God has had perfect communion and fellowship within the Trinity for all eternity. He doesn't need or want or lack fellowship.

Which then leads to the only possible answer to accomplish it.Man must have free will,else there choice to follow the things of righteousness isn't sincere.So to create a environment of which man is given the choice between good and evil God set man upon the earth and allowed Satan to tempt man.

That doesn't follow at all. Not only is it not the only possible answer, it is also irrational and not Biblical. The Biblical answer is that God glorifies Himself in the salvation of His elect and glorifies Himself in the damnation of the wicked. You can see now how our different views view man as the center of decision making vs. God being at the center of decision-making. One view is anthropocentric, the other view is theopocentric. One view says God is sovereign, the other says man is sovereign.

The problem that people were having though is that they were focusing on the wrong thing.Remember Gods desire is to create a person that desires the things of righteousness sincerely,but how to achieve that?After placing us on earth with the free will to chose good or evil ,he then took it a step farther.He didnt leave us on our own and just hope that we chose good over evil.He then started to teach us why and how good is so much better than evil,but in the process of teaching us he still gave us free will.

The view that God only made salvation possible is not Biblical. The book of Hebrews says:

Hebrews 9:12 NASB

and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus obtained eternal redemption for the ones He made the sacrifice for. Salvation is not merely made possible, it is totally accomplished eternally for the elect through His blood.

This is where man started to focus on the wrong thing.They were focusing on the act of sin but were not the substance of why sin is wrong.His establishment of the law wasn't ment to be a do or don't do book but a guide to lead us to righteousness.

Galatians 3
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

No, this is the complete opposite of the point that Paul is making in Galatians. The law does not lead us to righteousness. It never did and it never was supposed to do that. The Pharisees thought that the Law lead them to be righteous, but Jesus said they could never follow the Law because God demands perfection. The law is a schoolmaster because it shows us that we can never follow it, so therefore we must lean in faith on Christ for righteousness. Righteousness does not come from the law. It never did.

The next thing to understand is knowledge in of itself doesn't make one righteous but is part of a process that leads to righteousness.The thing i realized about the truth in the law was that while it revealed the sin that was in me it didn't make me better.As a matter a fact as i tried to defeat the sin with in me i quickly figured out that i wasn't able to

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The next step towards righteousness of which is the whole goal of God for us ,is that through knowledge and trying to do whats right we quickly realize it is hopeless to attain righteousness by ourselves,which leads to my final part in that now in our hopelessness our only option left is Faith that God will make us righteousness.

If it is hopeless to attain righteousness, then why do you say that man has a free will to do righteous things. "Accepting Jesus" is a righteous thing right? How can a man who is dead in sin and at war with a holy God who is actively punishing him do a righteous thing? If men have free wills to do what is good, what need does he have of Christ's righteousness?

Christ came so we would not have to focus anymore on the law because sin is taken care of,but we can now without the persecution of the judgement of sin can focus on developing the spirit of righteousness in meekness because we are now humble and confident in the loving mercy's of God.

Why did Jesus come?

John 10:3, 14-15 NASB

To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Then, Jesus says to the Pharisees:

John 10:26-28 NASB

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

[robert9712000]

No, this is the complete opposite of the point that Paul is making in Galatians. The law does not lead us to righteousness. It never did and it never was supposed to do that. The Pharisees thought that the Law lead them to be righteous, but Jesus said they could never follow the Law because God demands perfection. The law is a schoolmaster because it shows us that we can never follow it, so therefore we must lean in faith on Christ for righteousness. Righteousness does not come from the law. It never did.

According to this verse,one could attain righteousness if they followed the law

Galatians 3

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The reason one can't attain righteousness by the law inst because the law can't show someone what rightousness is but because man is weak in the flesh and even though they may have the knowledge of the law they can't follow it.

If it is hopeless to attain righteousness, then why do you say that man has a free will to do righteous things. "Accepting Jesus" is a righteous thing right? How can a man who is dead in sin and at war with a holy God who is actively punishing him do a righteous thing? If men have free wills to do what is good, what need does he have of Christ's righteousness?

you can do a righteous act,but doing one thing doesn't make you completely righteous.The hopelessness is being able to attain righteousness on your own by the law because your weak in the flesh.Therefor through faith in Christ he makes you righteous overcoming your weakness in the flesh


Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Why did Jesus come?

Christ came so that man could overcome the bondage of sin,thus giving him a means to attain righteousness

 

[Sola_Fide]

According to this verse,one could attain righteousness if they followed the law

1. Yes, you can attain righteousness if you follow the whole law. But what is the point? No one can follow it!

There is only one Man who has followed the law, the God-Man Jesus Christ. That is why we are justified by faith alone....because we believe in His perfect law-keeping, not our own. The law is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ because it teaches us that we can never follow it.


2. To say that we can "attain some righteousness, but not total righteousness" is not Biblical. Righteousness does not come from anything we do or any good law we keep:

Romans 3:28 NASB

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 3:21-26 NASB

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[jmdrake]

The comfort itself is knowing that you can't do anything about it. There is not a work you can do, no action you can perform, no life you can live, no price you can pay, that will gain you access to the kingdom of heaven. Nothing. Your works are rags to a holy God. They mean less than nothing.

In other words, just go to hell and enjoy the ride.

Edit: Why do people take comfort in someone altering the Bible to say "faith alone" and ignoring where it says "we are not justified by faith alone"? What about sola scriptura?

James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Edit part 2: Jesus made it very clear in multiple parables that some people who think they are going to heaven will end up in hell. (e.g. the whole "sheep and goats" parable. The difference being what the "did unto the least of these my brethren".) Isn't it possible that some of the people taking all this "comfort" in their salvation are taking a comfortable ride to hell? Or was Jesus just wrong?

Edit part 3: If man lacks freewill then how can anyone say he doesn't want free will? And how can someone "take comfort" in that since "taking comfort" itself implies freewill?

 

[PierzStyx]

This is why Christians are Christians and non-Christians are non-Christians. Christians believe that only the works that Jesus did will be accepted by God, so we look in faith only to His works, not our own. We are justified by simple belief.

On the other hand, non-Christians of all stripes think that their own works will merit them before God. So they do work after work...not understanding that God requires absolute obedience and absolute perfection, something no man can ever accomplish. And so their own prideful works send them to hell.

This is the great divide of true religion vs. man-made religion. True religion is monergistic, false religion is synergistic. True religion is faith alone, false religion is faith+works. True religion is trusting in the merits of Christ, false religion is trusting in your own merits.

False. True religion is as it is revealed by God through His prophets. Man-made religion is the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. This is a perfect example of that. God teaches man has agency, to act and not be acted upon except by the Judgment at the last day as the consequence of our actions. Salvation is a gift God offers to all. It is not forced upon a few and denied to the many. A God that damns the majority when He could save them, and saves a few even when they may not want it is a Tyrant, the very definition of a Slave Master.

Luther may have found comfort in his false doctrine, but that is because he is a coward. True doctrine is that God is mighty to save everyone who would be saved. But He does not enslave us to His will. Your god is a Despot, not the God of Christianity though you may use Christian terms.

 

[jmdrake]

1. Yes, you can attain righteousness if you follow the whole law. But what is the point? No one can follow it!

There is only one Man who has followed the law, the God-Man Jesus Christ. That is why we are justified by faith alone....because we believe in His perfect law-keeping, not our own. The law is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ because it teaches us that we can never follow it.


2. To say that we can "attain some righteousness, but not total righteousness" is not Biblical. Righteousness does not come from anything we do or any good law we keep:

It's not the "works of the law" that save us, but rather "works of faith" that save us. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It's really simple. So simple that I'm astonished that most people on both sides of the argument don't get it. Salvation comes from entering a loving relationship with Jesus where we do what He says. Remember He said If you love Me, keep My commandments. People think that's simply talking about the 10 commandments. It's not. Yes the 10 commandments are still binding. But Jesus made it clear that unless our righteousness went beyond legalistic keeping of the 10 commandments we would not enter into heaven. How to go beyond doing something that you already failed to do on your own? That's where grace comes in. Grace isn't just about forgiveness. It's also about empowerment. As Christians obey the Holy Spirit in the little things, their faith grows. Christians are supposed to move "from faith to faith". (Romans 1:17)

Ask yourself this question. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked Jesus "What must I do to be saved?" Why was Jesus answer not "nothing"? Why did Jesus give him something else to do? It wasn't because Jesus didn't love the rich young ruler. The Bible clearly says Jesus loved him. (See Mark 10:17-27) Yet Jesus wasn't willing to say "Don't worry about it. Take comfort in the fact that I love you because that means you will be saved." Jesus didn't say "Don't worry about it. Take comfort in the fact that you came to Me because that means you've been elected to be saved." Note the disciples asked Jesus after this "Who can be saved?" Jesus did say "Whoever is elected to be saved." Instead Jesus said "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." By choosing God over anything, everything becomes possible.

 

[PierzStyx]

In other words, just go to hell and enjoy the ride.

Edit: Why do people take comfort in someone altering the Bible to say "faith alone" and ignoring where it says "we are not justified by faith alone"? What about sola scriptura?

Edit part 2: Jesus made it very clear in multiple parables that some people who think they are going to heaven will end up in hell. (e.g. the whole "sheep and goats" parable. The difference being what the "did unto the least of these my brethren".) Isn't it possible that some of the people taking all this "comfort" in their salvation are taking a comfortable ride to hell? Or was Jesus just wrong?

James 2 is a treasure trove of guidance to truly understand how faith and our actions work together.

My favorite quote from James is 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." In other words, its great you believe, you have faith, but so do the devils. The fact terrifies them. We know form the Bible that the devils regularly confessed Christ's divine Sonship, that He was the Son of God and the Messiah. Yet we all know where the devils end up. But the kicker is James continues, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Faith without works is vain and cannot lead to salvation, it is a dead useless thing. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Abraham, was justified not just by his belief in God, but in acting to obey His commandments. Not just by belief alone. In fact, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James gets to the point. Faith is a dead unsaving thing without works. Without our willful action and effort to obey Him God does not force Himself upon us. He is not a spiritual rapist. But it is the the combination, the unity, the Oneness of the Spirit (John 17:20-22) that makes us one with God that is brought about by our faith and action that brings the grace of Christ and salvation. To drive his point home James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." And what should be the final nail, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Your parable comment brings up an interesting point. Pay attention to posts by Calvinists. The amount of doublethink they engage in is incredible.

You cannot force sight on the willfully blind. No matter what truths you hold, they will not accept them. The only thing that even has a remote chance of saving them is "falling into the ditch." Hopefully the impact is enough to shake the scales from their eyes.

 

[bunklocoempire]

Anything bad comes from me, a sinful man.

Anything good comes from God, perfect Love.

There's your free will. Really keeps it simple for me.

"Gotta serve somebody"

...But you're gonna have to serve somebody
Yes you're gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody...

Bob Dylan

 

[PierzStyx]

Anything bad comes from me, a sinful man.

Anything good comes from God, perfect Love.

There's your free will. Really keeps it simple for me.

"Gotta serve somebody"

...But you're gonna have to serve somebody
Yes you're gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody...

Bob Dylan

True. And those who do not believe in man's agency ultimately ascribe all evil to God. Since we all are doing nothing but following God's will in us when we torture someone, rape someone, assault someone, deny someone their rights, and any other form of evil you can think of, it is actually God doing it through us to others. Just as Obama gets the blame for the drones killing innocent people because he is the one who ultimately ordered it, their god gets the blame for all evil since he is the one ordering every evil act you can think of and we can't even do anything to not be evil. Their god is the source of all evil in reality making him evil.

 

[Kade]

The insanity has reached an entirely new level.

Why should any of you ever be taken seriously when you believe this much nonsense? I mean seriously.. take comfort in the fact that when you die there is no hell, because anyone who actually believes in it probably deserves to be in it.

 

[bunklocoempire]

The insanity has reached an entirely new level.

Why should any of you ever be taken seriously when you believe this much nonsense? I mean seriously.. take comfort in the fact that when you die there is no hell, because anyone who actually believes in it probably deserves to be in it.

...Said the "individual" suggesting group approval. lol

Continue to grade yourself on an ever moving curve dependent on a group around you, but don't expect anyone else to do it to make you sleep better or to satisfy a group.

Or was your post sarcasm?