Hundreds of thousands of Master's degree holders, PhDs on food stamps

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Selling ideas in a global economy is a risky endeavor..

Anything involved with computers other than hardware is an "idea"..

It really doesn't seem to be an intelligent occupation choice for anyone but the very brightest.

A nation of managers and warriors isn't going to last very long.

Agree with the economic point, disagree with computers being an "idea". Data is not an idea.

Again, the problem was created by government.

I got into the wild and wonderful world of IT back in 1998, with a degree in CRIMINAL JUSTICE and 4 years work experience as an Institutional Parole Officer. Why? Because I understood what a relational database was, and could teach myself how to create one, query it, and program it to work as a simple application. It really wasn't all that difficult for someone like me, who couldn't last one day in an advanced mathematics class, and forget engineering (even though I became for a short time, a "software engineer".)

Sometime around 2003, the world of a business unit giving an application developer an assignment and a time frame changed, because of SOX. That led to a lot of us experienced database guys to become "business analysts" to "document" the requirements and give them to some off-shore hack. This led to another level of overhead and added two months to projects. And add in the "project manager"..."techincal delivery managers" and "leads"...and those one off tasks got bundled into multiple tasks to become a "project", with a "methodology". Oh yeah, add in "testing" and all of that goodness.

SOX added about $5 million in "compliance" documentation and complexity to what was a simple ask and receive process that would last a week.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

and it DID even the playing field, we now have lots and lots of college graduates which would have never existed, they're more equal now. They might not be more employed or more rich than they were without the degree, but they're closer to degree and dignity equality because they were allowed to get a degree they couldn't afford. And now the job market is saturated with them.

Of course it's not all on the lenders, but what were they forced to do they couldn't escape by changing careers (what they tell people whether entering or exiting colleges to do).

The other thing it did was make some of the traditional blue collar jobs that someone could make a decent living doing, i.e. truck driver, construction, police officer, etc ripe for fucking idiots to take. Used to be that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road and some of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet, same thing with the guys that built things, and yes, even COPS back in the 70's and 80's. Nowadays, these jobs for the most part are being taken by those who barely graduated high school, in an environment where it's probably harder to barely graduate than graduate with a high enough GPA to qualify for some college.

 

[tod evans]

what do you mean by getting the government out of it? should the government enforce anti-fraud/contract measures? how can government be out of it if it allows people to discharge debts with bankruptcy?

Government requiring lenders to loan money to those who are unqualified, bailing out lenders who fail, printing money at a lower interest rate for "approved" lenders..

Government is a huge monster and civil court is one of the areas that could wait to be addressed, politicians writing legislation that jeopardizes common sense and tax revenue such as we're discussing about student loans needs addressed now.

If Johnny or his family can't put up collateral for his education then Johnny needs to get a job that "beneath" his sorry ass until he can foot the bill.

If a private bank wants to loan Johnny money for school then let them.........At risk to their shareholders.

A college education is not a right by virtue of birth, either pay before you go or put your families wealth at risk.

 

[Tpoints]

The other thing it did was make some of the traditional blue collar jobs that someone could make a decent living doing, i.e. truck driver, construction, police officer, etc ripe for fucking idiots to take. Used to be that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road and some of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet, same thing with the guys that built things, and yes, even COPS back in the 70's and 80's. Nowadays, these jobs for the most part are being taken by those who barely graduated high school, in an environment where it's probably harder to barely graduate than graduate with a high enough GPA to qualify for some college.

So what you're saying is, that in the past, these blue collar jobs required a college degree? Or what? What's wrong with these jobs NOT requiring a college degree or HS/GED unless it WAS required at an earlier time?

 

[Tpoints]

A college education is not a right by virtue of birth, either pay before you go or put your families wealth at risk.

I agree that that should be the case, but perhaps that's already being done, not by collateral, but by not being able to be discharged.

 

[tod evans]

I agree that that should be the case, but perhaps that's already being done, not by collateral, but by not being able to be discharged.

Government has no place requiring anyone to loan money to an upstart and writing laws in an attempt to assure repayment has only grown government.

Right back to my argument about discharging student loans in bankruptcy.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

So what you're saying is, that in the past, these blue collar jobs required a college degree? Or what? What's wrong with these jobs NOT requiring a college degree or HS/GED unless it WAS required at an earlier time?

No, you missed my point.

Those jobs don't require a college degree, never have. Before the "college is a necessity" crap started, working class types took those jobs and made a decent living, and improved their positions and maybe their kids went to college.

Nowadays, kids think they have to go to college and those jobs are "beneath" them, so they'd rather go into debt than work.

Only the flippin' morons with an IQ of 80 are taking the jobs that intelligent working class folks used to take, and we get inferior construction, moronic police, and unsafe truck drivers, and the same time we have millions of "educated" people living in their parents' basement waiting for the payoff for their five years of "higher education".

 

[Tpoints]

Government has no place requiring anyone to loan money to an upstart and writing laws in an attempt to assure repayment has only grown government.

Right back to my argument about discharging student loans in bankruptcy.

this is where we fundamentally disagree, you believe allowing people to discharge debts is somehow a God given right or a justified government intervention, I don't. I believe the best way to let government out of the loan business is never allow any debts to be discharged by bankruptcy. I believe that fact has worked out pretty well with the student loans industry, and 'victims' of the bubble are suffering, as they should, and warning people not to fall for the trap. Contrast that with credit card debt, car loans, mortgages, where the person can walk away from his bad decision and start over, he has no reason to learn from his mistake if he can get away with it again, he has no reason to warn his peers not to make his mistake. I believe allowing debts to be discharged with bankruptcy (a government decision) is essentially letting the government bail out borrowers, the direct opposite of non-interventionist, caveat emptor, laissez faire free market.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

Now where you an-caps, and libertarians who argue it's "our fault". At least in IT, I do not understand how we as Americans are supposed to compete with a completely different CULTURE (SE Asians, i.e. Indians). Even before we get into "cost", we are dealing with a people who WILLING ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BECOME WHAT AMOUNTS TO INDENTURED SERVANTS. What most of these on-shored "consultants" do, is go to a "company owned school" for about a year and get "trained" on American banking systems, basic mainframe programming, and a little bit of exposure to networking, internet, etc. It's much less exposure than in a CIS program at most American universities. However, in exchange for the "schooling", the Indian allows himself/herself to be put in an American job less than 48 hours of being told about it. They also allow themselves to be moved anywhere in the United States on 24 hour notice. For their work, they recieve no overtime pay, but are told to work about 75-80 hours a week (the "company" pockets the OT). They live 8-9 to an apartment, usually in some of the worst areas of the cities they are assigned to.

American companies LOVE these people, even though many are clueless as to what they are actually doing. The "company" sells them as highly trained and experienced. Most of them are lying about their ages and experience, saying they're 30, when if they are 25, it's a stretch.

And, these are their BEST people. Their lower-end "employees" are back in India in IT "sweatshops" writing code. It is the equivalent to "if 1000 monkeys sat at typewriters, they'd create the world's greatest novel."

All for $28/hr.

HOW IN THE WORLD IS A TRAINED AMERICAN IT WORKER (Programmer, DBA, Business Analyst, Data Analyst, Project Manager, Network Admin, etc.) WITH A MORTGAGE AND A FAMILY SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH THAT? An-caps, so is the answer to basically make yourself homeless or live in the hood, and leave your family to compete with this?

This whole scenario is made possible by government welfare, and tax/regulatory burden on business that discourages more companies from starting or being sustainable in this economy. Aside from the tax environment discouraging many from finding pursuing a business to be worthwhile, it also provides disincentives for people to do the "above and beyond" things the immigrants are doing like suddenly relocating, packing themselves 8 per household, etc. What the culture should do is encourage more people to take up interning or apprenticeship situations, to compete with those acting like "indentured servants" to get situated in a job.

 

[MelissaWV]

So what you're saying is, that in the past, these blue collar jobs required a college degree? Or what? What's wrong with these jobs NOT requiring a college degree or HS/GED unless it WAS required at an earlier time?

I would agree with him, and I'm sure he'll clarify, but would like to offer my take on it.

There used to be no shame in going into a real trade of some sort. Auto repair, truck driver, construction, shipyard work... it was "hard work for an honest day's pay." Most of those people knew that's what they were going to wind up doing. They worked at it. It really was a career path, even if it did not involve college (though sometimes a trade school was involved).

Now it is for people who flunk out of college, or never go, or had to struggle to get their GED. It is a fallback, a last resort, and looked down upon. Think of it as volunteer military versus drafted military if you want. A volunteer military has a certain attitude, training, and expectations. Someone who's drafted into things just wants to survive and likely resents they're in the situation at all. These are all generalizations, of course, since I know a lot of mechanics who love what they do and learned from family without bothering with college/trade school (they work on older vehicles).

 

[Tpoints]

No, you missed my point.

Those jobs don't require a college degree, never have. Before the "college is a necessity" crap started, working class types took those jobs and made a decent living, and improved their positions and maybe their kids went to college.

Why is letting their kids go to college a good thing if they made a decent living not going to college?

Nowadays, kids think they have to go to college and those jobs are "beneath" them, so they'd rather go into debt than work.

Yes, today kids are stupid enough to think they're too good for blue collar jobs, and rather be in debt, the attitude is dangerous and they deserve to be slapped for it.

Only the flippin' morons with an IQ of 80 are taking the jobs that intelligent working class folks used to take, and we get inferior construction, moronic police, and unsafe truck drivers, and the same time we have millions of "educated" people living in their parents' basement waiting for the payoff for their five years of "higher education".

Well, people who are stupid enough to be in debt rather than work blue collar jobs aren't exactly smarter either. Sounds like your problem is with people's arrogance, not with their stupidity. You want people to humble themselves and get their hands dirty so you feel safer, are you a blue collar worker? If not, why not?

Is it possible that rather than "high IQ goes to college, low IQ take blue collar jobs", people are just all overall dumber today?

 

[tod evans]

You do understand that you're arguing for government to be able to loan money by proxy and then for an even bigger government to collect on the debt?

I on the other hand am arguing to get government out of the loan business altogether.

Let governments role be to administer civil court where borrower and lender can duke it out.

this is where we fundamentally disagree, you believe allowing people to discharge debts is somehow a God given right or a justified government intervention, I don't. I believe the best way to let government out of the loan business is never allow any debts to be discharged by bankruptcy. I believe that fact has worked out pretty well with the student loans industry, and 'victims' of the bubble are suffering, as they should, and warning people not to fall for the trap. Contrast that with credit card debt, car loans, mortgages, where the person can walk away from his bad decision and start over, he has no reason to learn from his mistake if he can get away with it again, he has no reason to warn his peers not to make his mistake. I believe allowing debts to be discharged with bankruptcy (a government decision) is essentially letting the government bail out borrowers, the direct opposite of non-interventionist, caveat emptor, laissez faire free market.

 

[otherone]

The entire process of higher education is a money laundering scheme. Guaranteed student loans are guaranteed big bucks for banking interests. Soon we'll see how middle-class tax dollars will bail-out student loan lenders, while making us believe it's to help the borrowers. Sound familiar? It's just like Obamacare.

 

[MelissaWV]

Btw... thank you for the laugh.

"Oh they're willing to work for $28/hour!"

That sucks, but you pointed out some interesting things. A family with kids and a mortgage and car loans to pay and credit cards and gadgets and $100/mo towards a mobile plan and another $100/mo towards cable/sat and eating out at least once a week... nope, they can't live off of that. Not even close. Not even in the cheaper areas of the nation. If you trim that down to what's needed, and don't have a family until you're in decent financial shape, and don't live in a high-cost area, $58,000+ doesn't sound too impoverished to me.

 

[Tpoints]

I would agree with him, and I'm sure he'll clarify, but would like to offer my take on it.

There used to be no shame in going into a real trade of some sort. Auto repair, truck driver, construction, shipyard work... it was "hard work for an honest day's pay." Most of those people knew that's what they were going to wind up doing. They worked at it. It really was a career path, even if it did not involve college (though sometimes a trade school was involved).

It's becoming true again today. Today, any job is better than no job for those who can't or don't want government assistance. Those who think they're too good for dirty work will keep sitting on their asses until you starve them or whip them for not paying their debt. (and somebody wants to let these people off with bankruptcy)

Now it is for people who flunk out of college, or never go, or had to struggle to get their GED. It is a fallback, a last resort, and looked down upon.

Yeah, but who cares about what people think if you're well paid? Isn't part of the problem either that those jobs are no longer well paying due to supply and demand, OR, people value certain things than mere money?

Think of it as volunteer military versus drafted military if you want. A volunteer military has a certain attitude, training, and expectations. Someone who's drafted into things just wants to survive and likely resents they're in the situation at all. These are all generalizations, of course, since I know a lot of mechanics who love what they do and learned from family without bothering with college/trade school (they work on older vehicles).

Good analogy. People who volunteer are generally more happy with what they do, even if it's in it for money. That doesn't mean they don't have a similar blue collar stigma

 

[Tpoints]

You do understand that you're arguing for government to be able to loan money by proxy and then for an even bigger government to collect on the debt?

No, why would I be? I want government COMPLETELY OUT OF LOANS. no bankruptcy, no special rules, nobody is forced to loan anybody, let lenders make their own risk determination, just enforce contracts.

I on the other hand am arguing to get government out of the loan business altogether.

Let governments role be to administer civil court where borrower and lender can duke it out.

Weren't you arguing for letting debts discharge via bankruptcy (which is, in effect, forcing the lender to forgive a debt)? How is that letting 2 sides duke it out themselves?

 

[Tpoints]

The entire process of higher education is a money laundering scheme. Guaranteed student loans are guaranteed big bucks for banking interests. Soon we'll see how middle-class tax dollars will bail-out student loan lenders, while making us believe it's to help the borrowers. Sound familiar? It's just like Obamacare.

Luckily, due to being unable to discharge, people are suffering from their bad choices, and hopefully people will stop falling for it.

 

[Tpoints]

Btw... thank you for the laugh.

"Oh they're willing to work for $28/hour!"

That sucks, but you pointed out some interesting things. A family with kids and a mortgage and car loans to pay and credit cards and gadgets and $100/mo towards a mobile plan and another $100/mo towards cable/sat and eating out at least once a week... nope, they can't live off of that. Not even close. Not even in the cheaper areas of the nation. If you trim that down to what's needed, and don't have a family until you're in decent financial shape, and don't live in a high-cost area, $58,000+ doesn't sound too impoverished to me.

I didn't know that was the definition of living. It's their lifestyle choice. Having kids, car, house, mobile gadgets isn't either a right or a duty, they are all choices you make.

ahhh, good, we agree

 

[Tpoints]

HOW IN THE WORLD IS A TRAINED AMERICAN IT WORKER (Programmer, DBA, Business Analyst, Data Analyst, Project Manager, Network Admin, etc.) WITH A MORTGAGE AND A FAMILY SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH THAT? An-caps, so is the answer to basically make yourself homeless or live in the hood, and leave your family to compete with this?

How in the world is a Mr & Mrs "I'm too good for that kind of pay because I need to have my caviar and dog food" going to compete with "I'm just happy I'm alive and can eat"? Good question!... NOT!

 

[MelissaWV]

It's becoming true again today. Today, any job is better than no job for those who can't or don't want government assistance. Those who think they're too good for dirty work will keep sitting on their asses until you starve them or whip them for not paying their debt. (and somebody wants to let these people off with bankruptcy)

Yeah, but who cares about what people think if you're well paid? Isn't part of the problem either that those jobs are no longer well paying due to supply and demand, OR, people value certain things than mere money?

Good analogy. People who volunteer are generally more happy with what they do, even if it's in it for money. That doesn't mean they don't have a similar blue collar stigma

There is an intriguing thing happening here (I live in a major college town). There is an utter lack of awareness of the blue collar jobs altogether. There is a fantastic focus on research, but no thought to who on earth manages all the equipment that pumps water, stores dangerous gases, powers their lab. No one is being starved because they can whine about not wanting to work a job too far beneath them, or work for less money in the same field, and line up for "benefits." If, when this latest downturn had happened, some of them thought about it and went for a blue collar trade specialty, many would be employed and in demand. Adapt or die. That's not an "American" rule. It's a rule of nature.