Hundreds of thousands of Master's degree holders, PhDs on food stamps

[tod evans]

No, why would I be? I want government COMPLETELY OUT OF LOANS. no bankruptcy, no special rules, nobody is forced to loan anybody, let lenders make their own risk determination, just enforce contracts.



Weren't you arguing for letting debts discharge via bankruptcy (which is, in effect, forcing the lender to forgive a debt)? How is that letting 2 sides duke it out themselves?

You seem to be lumping governments role in lending/collecting money right in with their role as civil court administrators..

Bankruptcy law is strictly a civil matter and as such is under the courts jurisdiction, changing the bankruptcy laws is in my opinion a totally separate issue.

The only reason I brought up bankruptcy in relation to student loans is because of the recent laws that prohibit discharge. A student loan should be just as risky to the lender as any other unsecured loan and it should carry the appropriate interest rate to reflect the risk.

I could get behind repealing many of the recent changes to the bankruptcy code, but if there is going to be a bankruptcy code at all then student loans should be able to be discharged like any other debt.

 

[Tpoints]

You seem to be lumping governments role in lending/collecting money right in with their role as civil court administrators..

yes, I am, since I want government out of it all.

Bankruptcy law is strictly a civil matter and as such is under the courts jurisdiction, changing the bankruptcy laws is in my opinion a totally separate issue.

Strictly civil in that the government isn't a party and the claimant isn't a criminal. But not "strictly between 2 parties" if the government can tell one side to fuck off and tell the other side to walk away and smile. If that were the case, they wouldn't need a court, one guy can find a better way to make his creditor happy. Bankruptcy court is for people who want to use government force to fuck over the creditor (bail himself out).

The only reason I brought up bankruptcy in relation to student loans is because of the recent laws that prohibit discharge.

Yes, I understand. And I want all debts to be undischargable, and all contracts to be enforceable unless they are fraudulent. And I want no bankruptcy courts.

A student loan should be just as risky to the lender as any other unsecured loan and it should carry the appropriate interest rate to reflect the risk.

I could get behind repealing many of the recent changes to the bankruptcy code, but if there is going to be a bankruptcy code at all then student loans should be able to be discharged like any other debt.

I'm on the other side, I want bankruptcy to disappear. I want no debts to be dischargable. Your position is essentially "if we're wrong on one thing, we should be consistently wrong to be fair"

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Why is letting their kids go to college a good thing if they made a decent living not going to college?

Because the way it used to work was that college was the way into the managerial world, or it was the way to actually learn how to manage a family business. In my family, that's what was done on my paternal grandmother's side. On my paternal grandfather's side, it was my great-great grandfather building boats in Sweden, to my great-great grandfather being a tool and die manufacturer, to my grandfather going to college for engineering and business to start a business selling machines to engineering firms. My uncle took over the business and my father became an accountant.

Yes, today kids are stupid enough to think they're too good for blue collar jobs, and rather be in debt, the attitude is dangerous and they deserve to be slapped for it.

Glad we agree.

Well, people who are stupid enough to be in debt rather than work blue collar jobs aren't exactly smarter either. Sounds like your problem is with people's arrogance, not with their stupidity. You want people to humble themselves and get their hands dirty so you feel safer, are you a blue collar worker? If not, why not?

Is it possible that rather than "high IQ goes to college, low IQ take blue collar jobs", people are just all overall dumber today?

I do agree that people seem to be dumber today. I read e-mails and documents prepared by so-called college graduates, and am amazed at the lack of grammar and writing ability.

I am not a blue collar worker. Not that I wish I was, but I am a bit upset that my father was not able to pass any skills down to me about basic auto mechanics or home repair because he never had it passed down to him. I feel stupid that I can't repair my downstairs bathroom (take out and replace the sink, refloor it, and take out and replace the toilet). I probably CAN do it, but I'm afraid I'm going to flood the house and do more in damages than just paying someone to do it would cost. At times I wish I had some of the skills that some of my non-college prep peers had in high school.

 

[tod evans]

It's becoming true again today. Today, any job is better than no job for those who can't or don't want government assistance. Those who think they're too good for dirty work will keep sitting on their asses until you starve them or whip them for not paying their debt. (and somebody wants to let these people off with bankruptcy)

As the person who argues for student debt being able to be discharged under bankruptcy, I also argue to eliminate every other form of government welfare, no housing, no food-stamps etc..

I don't want the federal government involved in any of it other than their constitutionally proscribed role as civil court administrator.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Btw... thank you for the laugh.

"Oh they're willing to work for $28/hour!"

That sucks, but you pointed out some interesting things. A family with kids and a mortgage and car loans to pay and credit cards and gadgets and $100/mo towards a mobile plan and another $100/mo towards cable/sat and eating out at least once a week... nope, they can't live off of that. Not even close. Not even in the cheaper areas of the nation. If you trim that down to what's needed, and don't have a family until you're in decent financial shape, and don't live in a high-cost area, $58,000+ doesn't sound too impoverished to me.

Yes, but when the salary those jobs were nearly double that, and plans were made based upon THAT salary (not even expecting raises), it's not really possible to take a 50% pay cut without serious lifestyle changes which may affect their children's futures (example here in Charlotte, putting your kid in the public schools is a death sentence - and don't start on homeschooling because if two parents work, it's not possible). Problem also, is that many of the jobs I'm talking about are not exactly available in lower cost areas of the country if you want to ever move up. And, in these jobs, you do need a mobile plan which is reliable.

 

[tod evans]

yes, I am, since I want government out of it all.

I too want government out of it all, all that isn't spelled out in the constitution..

I'm on the other side, I want bankruptcy to disappear. I want no debts to be dischargable. Your position is essentially "if we're wrong on one thing, we should be consistently wrong to be fair"

Don't attribute things to me I didn't type there Ace......

Fairness has nothing to do with it........

I can see some instances where bankruptcy could be acceptable, very few, but some...

Laws would have to be repealed and rewritten in order to prevent gaming the system...........Study a bit on trust law for an eye opener..

The whole legal system is almost as big a mess as government but tax-dollars pay for government, litigants foot their own bills in civil court.

 

[Tpoints]

Because the way it used to work was that college was the way into the managerial world, or it was the way to actually learn how to manage a family business. In my family, that's what was done on my paternal grandmother's side. On my paternal grandfather's side, it was my great-great grandfather building boats in Sweden, to my great-great grandfather being a tool and die manufacturer, to my grandfather going to college for engineering and business to start a business selling machines to engineering firms. My uncle took over the business and my father became an accountant.

Aren't you admitting that going to college made life better? Or only when the market favors it?

Glad we agree.

I do agree that people seem to be dumber today. I read e-mails and documents prepared by so-called college graduates, and am amazed at the lack of grammar and writing ability.

I am not a blue collar worker. Not that I wish I was

You don't wish you were a blue collar worker? Then you're partially responsible for leaving those jobs to idiots, aren't you? I am too, but I am not complaining. I am glad there are people happy to do them and I know enough people who are both decent and smart.

, but I am a bit upset that my father was not able to pass any skills down to me about basic auto mechanics or home repair because he never had it passed down to him. I feel stupid that I can't repair my downstairs bathroom (take out and replace the sink, refloor it, and take out and replace the toilet). I probably CAN do it, but I'm afraid I'm going to flood the house and do more in damages than just paying someone to do it would cost. At times I wish I had some of the skills that some of my non-college prep peers had in high school.

So you obviously know why you don't care to fix it yourself, basic cost benefit analysis. You know that the people fixing your bathroom, while stupid, isn't stupid enough to flood up your house and do more damage than you would. Having skills to do things is great, so I don't think its either nice or fair to say blue collar jobs are taken up by idiots, they're the people who make our lives easier, they are not, by any means equal value to a doctor, lawyer or architecht, but when you need them, you'll know how much they're worth.

 

[Tpoints]

Yes, but when the salary those jobs were nearly double that, and plans were made based upon THAT salary

please feel sorry for me for getting suckered into a lifestyle I had no guarantee of maintaining. I refused to learn from my parents or grandparents because I'm too smart for that.

 

[Tpoints]

it's not really possible to take a 50% pay cut without serious lifestyle changes which may affect their children's futures

serious lifestyle changes isn't synonymous with dying, so it's possible.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

serious lifestyle changes isn't synonymous with dying, so it's possible.

This is the attitude that will turn these United States into a third-world nation.

And that attitude that thinks it's okay is why I am not a full-bore libertarian.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Aren't you admitting that going to college made life better? Or only when the market favors it?

Of course it did. It did for almost EVERYBODY since the founding of the nation until sometime in the 1990's.

You don't wish you were a blue collar worker? Then you're partially responsible for leaving those jobs to idiots, aren't you? I am too, but I am not complaining. I am glad there are people happy to do them and I know enough people who are both decent and smart.

That's a complete strawman argument. There are still plenty of skilled tradesmen out there who are older and do quality work. The issue here are the people 30 and under who think they HAVE to go to college or they'll "work" in a trade. Funny thing is, most of the younger guys who've come to do work screw it up, and the company owner has to come fix the damage.

So you obviously know why you don't care to fix it yourself, basic cost benefit analysis. You know that the people fixing your bathroom, while stupid, isn't stupid enough to flood up your house and do more damage than you would. Having skills to do things is great, so I don't think its either nice or fair to say blue collar jobs are taken up by idiots, they're the people who make our lives easier, they are not, by any means equal value to a doctor, lawyer or architecht, but when you need them, you'll know how much they're worth.

I NEVER said ALL blue collar jobs are taken by idiots. All I said were younger people not in college or having gone to college who are in trades who are under 30 tend to be less skilled, less motivated, and tend to do a crappy job.

You certainly have a way with putting words in people's mouths.

 

[Tpoints]

This is the attitude that will turn these United States into a third-world nation.

And that attitude that thinks it's okay is why I am not a full-bore libertarian.

Lmao. I dont care if you are a libertarian, but you think living in your means will turn us into a third world nation? Try the alternative

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Lmao. I dont care if you are a libertarian, but you think living in your means will turn us into a third world nation? Try the alternative

If you lived within your means at $100k for multiple years, why are you blasting that person for saying that living on $58k becomes almost impossible?

I don't get it, a responsible person becomes irresponsible?

I don't understand why a person who put over 20% down on a mortgage with a reasonable payment based on a $100k salary is suddenly irresponsible.

I don't understand why a person who wishes to put their child in private school (which I thought was all the rage around here) cannot because of a salary slash is now irresponsible.

I guess when a person was making $100k a year they're supposed to live like they're on food stamps...got it.

 

[tttppp]

I will give you the answer I think to be the correct one, however I am only going on my personal experience and reading the damn news about this for the last 20 plus years! So of course I may not be qualified to give a good answer on this.

Out-sourcing and in-sourcing. That's it, I could go into to details about it, but don't desire to do so right now. Most of the jobs are still at these companies, they just prefer to not hire Americans.

Diversity plays a part in it too. I was at one company whose goal was diversity and they placed hiring foreigners to come here ahead of Americans who are already here.

 

[Aeroneous]

Yea, that kind of fucks those of us who are not good at advanced mathematics or hard sciences....

There just aren't that many companies out there centered around humanities and social sciences (at least not by comparison). Colleges are just meeting demands by offering the degrees... it's the students who need to do the research to determine if they're in a degree program that won't have a return on investment. I used to be in the crowd that said, "Study what you love." Now I'm of the mindset that this is ridiculous, and you should study whatever you can tolerate that will get you employed or just not go at all.

A big problem now is that too many people are going to college that shouldn't be. The world needs a working labor class, tradesmen, etc., but few people want those jobs. Everyone is convinced that they're going to be Senior Vice Presidents by the time they're 24, rather than an HVAC technician who makes a solid living wage. I'm glad people are motivated, but often times they just aren't realistic and they don't do their due diligience to determine if they're following the right path to achieve their lofty goals.

 

[pochy1776]

Yea, that kind of fucks those of us who are not good at advanced mathematics or hard sciences....

i know it sucks. Bob Murphy even said to me that you have to get something that could get you a job. Despite him being an NYU grad, he wasn't able to get ANY job.

 

[otherone]

I NEVER said ALL blue collar jobs are taken by idiots. All I said were younger people not in college or having gone to college who are in trades who are under 30 tend to be less skilled, less motivated, and tend to do a crappy job.

....compared to all those college educated cube rats who spend half their time on social media.

 

[JorgeStevenson]

HOW IN THE WORLD IS A TRAINED AMERICAN IT WORKER (Programmer, DBA, Business Analyst, Data Analyst, Project Manager, Network Admin, etc.) WITH A MORTGAGE AND A FAMILY SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH THAT? An-caps, so is the answer to basically make yourself homeless or live in the hood, and leave your family to compete with this?

Here's the deal - in the time it took you to write this long and well though-out post, there were 5 poor IT shmucks in South America wondering how in the world they are supposed to compete with these machine-like American workers, who work 10 hours per day, barely take vacations, don't take an hour lunch break every day, went to the best schools in the world, and live in a country where the biggest businesses in the world are all headquartered. It's all relative. You make choices, and those choices involve trade-offs. To some cultures, certain things don't seem like that big of a trade-off, while to others certain things are considered necessities.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

and it DID even the playing field, we now have lots and lots of college graduates which would have never existed, they're more equal now. They might not be more employed or more rich than they were without the degree, but they're closer to degree and dignity equality because they were allowed to get a degree they couldn't afford. And now the job market is saturated with them.

Of course it's not all on the lenders, but what were they forced to do they couldn't escape by changing careers (what they tell people whether entering or exiting colleges to do).

No it didn't. The resulting glut of people with BAs depreciated their value. As you said, the market is saturated with applicants with BAs. Now employers look for Master's and higher. Plus, as I understand it, the standards for undergrad degrees have been watered down so colleges can pump out more grads-forcing people into graduate programs who otherwise would have been fine without it. On top of that, most people who enter a college are so ill-prepared for it that they don't graduate in 4 years. IOW, "higher ed" is a racket. (don't even get me started on ridiculously overpriced textbooks!) People who aren't academically gifted should go into trade school. The skilled trades pay very well and it's easier to get a job or start a business in those fields.

 

[Working Poor]

I think that regulations play a role in this. Forgive me if someone already said this.