How to win a "separation of church and state" debate

Knightskye

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Progressives argue that the separation of church and state comes from Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists. So, they're arguing the intent of the founding fathers.

One of their favorite defenses is the "general welfare" clause. However, as Madison wrote:
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare.

So if Christine O'Donnell, or whoever else, argues the case that the First Amendment doesn't provide for a separation of church and state, then progressives are wrong, because the general welfare clause does not provide for powers not enumerated in the Constitution!

:D
 
Last night Bill Maher was discussing O'Donnell and her 1st amendment fiasco. He actually said that she is correct in that the words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the constitution but there is enough other supporting documentation from the framers to know what they really meant. Of course, all his guests were progressives so nobody called him out on it.

I guess now whenever he makes fun of original intent or strict constructionists we can just play back that video clip.
 
How to win a "separation of church and state" debate

Depends on what side you are on. For better or worse, take it to the Supreme Court (the place where it really matters), and there is little question as to who will win.
 
by way of auld george washington's dentures...

you talk tommy jefferson?
you mention the lutheran
pastor in the pulpit and if
he took his robe off in the hall
after he wore his boots & spurs
into the pulpit? when he put
on his uny~form, in full, i.e his
coat, as he quoted an E~book...
 
you talk tommy jefferson?
you mention the lutheran
pastor in the pulpit and if
he took his robe off in the hall
after he wore his boots & spurs
into the pulpit? when he put
on his uny~form, in full, i.e his
coat, as he quoted an E~book...

Is that a poem?
 
Any state sponsored religion would be violating US law.

What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" don't you understand?

End of argument.

Freaking christian fascists we have here.
 
Any state sponsored religion would be violating US law.

What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" don't you understand?

End of argument.

Freaking christian fascists we have here.

I am not sure why anyone here would be against the separation of religion and the State. There is more liberty with the separation than without, and we are all about liberty.

I quote my previous post on the matter:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2941301&postcount=20

It seems like some of the people who are alarmist about Sharia law coming to America might also the same people that don't want there to be any separation between religion and the State. This seems like hypocrisy.

If you don't want separation between religion and the State (at any level; Federal, State, local, etc.), then you have to be willing to accept religious laws/virtues/sins/instructions being entered as public law that are not of your own religion, and you also have to be willing to accept religions you may disagree with becoming Federal/State/city/district official religions (paying homage to the "off with his head" Church of England), potentially with penalties for not following the "official" religion or its laws. This includes having to be willing to accept Sharia law, Jewish law, Hindu law, etc., because if there is no separation between religion and State, that does not mean that only Christianity can take advantage of State enhanced powers, it means that any religion can, including those you do not agree with.

There are many ways you could take the meaning of the phrase "separation of church and State", and I do not think that it is meant to be taken to mean that public officials cannot be religious or practice any religion they like openly. That is fine for them to do, there is nothing against that, and it would be nice to see more religious diversity in Congress and State Congresses to help strengthen religious freedom and guard against government favoritism of religion.

There are other facets to the subject I am not touching on here. But it can be dangerous if we allow the State to legislate favors or punishments for some religions over others (including non-religion), because it gives some groups more privileges and special favor than others, creating an "accepted" and privileged caste (those that follow the State religion), and an unprivileged caste (those that follow any other religion, or those without religion). This would be unjust, and potentially oppressive. This would be theocratic tyranny.

A better option would be to allow freedom of religion to the maximum extent (rather than the alternative: government monopoly on and regulation of religion, otherwise known as no separation of religion and State), and we all know that freedom is inversely proportional to government involvement. Are some here actually arguing that we need more government involvement in people's personal religious lives, by legislating unjust laws that favor a locally predominant religion while repressing all other locally less popular religions, in an effort to make all non-State enhanced religions appear to be less legitimate to further promote the State sanctioned religion? It is unfair, unjust, and misleading to have the State promote one religion over another, because even if it is only words coming from a public official, if those words are used in an attempt to discredit the legitimacy of locally less popular religions in order to further promote a State sanctioned religion, then those words are actively oppressive.
 
Religion has been both the ally and the enemy of the State in various histories. I see no reason why it would ever be good if it was an ally.

Churches should remain private institutions of like minded individuals. The State, I would prefer not to exist.
 
Any state sponsored religion would be violating US law.

What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" don't you understand?

End of argument.

Freaking christian fascists we have here.
(emphasis mine)

So everything that applies to the U.S. Congress also applies to the individual states? Fail. I don't see a place for state sponsored religion, but your argument doesn't hold water.
 
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Progressives argue that the separation of church and state comes from Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists. So, they're arguing the intent of the founding fathers.

One of their favorite defenses is the "general welfare" clause. However, as Madison wrote:


So if Christine O'Donnell, or whoever else, argues the case that the First Amendment doesn't provide for a separation of church and state, then progressives are wrong, because the general welfare clause does not provide for powers not enumerated in the Constitution!

:D

Jefferson's phrase is merely a convenient term coined to explain the concept of the Establishment Clause to the legal laymen of the Danbury Baptist Assoc.

The Establishment Clause is quite clear and succinct in it's wording and purpose, when one applies 18th century language to the Amendment.

Bouvier's Law Dictionary was the very first comprehensive legal definitional source for American legal jargon. It was a work that began in the 1820's. Definition number 4 for "establish" reads thusly...

4. To found, recognize, confirm or admit; as, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

And considering that the same definitional source lists "religion" as, in part...

"Real piety in practice, consisting in the performance of all known duties to God and our fellow men."...

We can see that legislation such as that used to replace our Founder crafted National Motto, that changed Rev Bellamy's Pledge into a prayer (both in the 1950's), that places the Ten Commandments on court houses, and religious holiday decorations on public property are all illegal.

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier.htm
 
Religion has been both the ally and the enemy of the State in various histories. I see no reason why it would ever be good if it was an ally.

Churches should remain private institutions of like minded individuals. The State, I would prefer not to exist.

The Church is a form of government. Separation of church and state is a separation of powers. We need a strict separation of business (mercantilism, corporatism, etc.) and state now.
 
Any state sponsored religion would be violating US law.

What does "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" don't you understand?

End of argument.

Freaking christian fascists we have here.

Wow. You need to take a Constitution class. Come back when you understand the establishment clause.
 
real sep of church and state
means gays can not have marriage.
who created Marriage? The state or the church?....thinkin it was the church......so now who is redifining one of My religous sacraments in front of my face? the state is.

The state can use the word union
but the word and title Marriage is the church's

tell me again about church and state???
 
The Church is a form of government. Separation of church and state is a separation of powers. We need a strict separation of business (mercantilism, corporatism, etc.) and state now.

You're exactly right. We need a wall of seperation between business and State. Although I would go further...

We have to understand that church government is VOLUNTARY government of VOLUNTARY association, which makes it moral.

State compulsion is not voluntary and therefore wrong.


I have never understood why some "libertarians" here would be against church government since it is THE model of voluntary government in America right now. It blows me away.
 
real sep of church and state
means gays can not have marriage.
who created Marriage? The state or the church?....thinkin it was the church......so now who is redifining one of My religous sacraments in front of my face? the state is.

The state can use the word union
but the word and title Marriage is the church's

tell me again about church and state???

Firstly, the concept of marriage is far older than your church, or your religion. They can claim title to it all they want, but they don't own squat.

Secondly, if marriage was a "church" function, than my wife of twenty plus years and I are not "married" since we conducted our wedding ceremony before a Justice, and no mention of god was made.

Thirdly, By your definition, then tens of millions of Atheists and non-Christian religious are not currently married.

Lastly, there are over a thousand benefits, rights, and privileges supplied to a married couple through the government, and also protected by g'ment as well.

Marriage is a Civil Right, not a religious right.

Having your wedding ceremony to partake of that Civil Right is a religious right, however.
 
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