god or no god?

[hubze]

The annoying thing about the creator debate is that there is no way to prove or disprove that one exists.

Until this election, there were 2 things I NEVER discussed and those were Politics and Religion. Ron Paul has inspired me to now talk Politics, but I do it in the non-interventionist way. These are 2 things that you, and ONLY you can come to terms with as it is your conscience that is affected by it. I could tell you there is no god until I am blue in the face...it just boils down to how you feel deep within...no one can push you over the edge like there is some magic statement that makes someone say...OH! Ya...an ark held 2 of every animal for 40 days and nights containing both predator and prey and magically kept itself clean etc...so YOU have to look at the information that is out there and come to your conclusion because some people believe this stuff and some people don't...

Just like some people think that Rick Perry is a stand up guy and some don't. Really no different to me.

 

[ClayTrainor]

But if you think you actually presented a tight logical syllogism, you should be capable of presenting it clearly and explicitly.

I believe I did. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it.

And if it's really that obvious, it should be that much easier for you to do that. I think NapolitanicWars might be right, and you're just going with an emotion driven gut feeling rather than actual logic.

Well, help me out than. Demonstrate where you're coming from.

Explain to me how all 3 can be true at the same time.

1. God is all good (he is morally against child rape)
2. God is all Powerful (Powerful enough to prevent child rapists from raping children)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen (Children still get raped)

 

[erowe1]

If God is all Good, than that implies that he would prevent a child rape if he had the power, otherwise he is not all good. It is not moral to let child rape happen, when you have the power to prevent it.

This is not the definition of "all good" that you gave in your original presentation of the syllogism.

If this is the definition you mean to use, then all you've proven is that an all-good god, by this particular definition of "all-good," being that he would not allow evil to happen, doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone would dispute that such a God does not exist. Nor have I ever encountered anyone who claimed that such a god did exist.

 

[erowe1]

Demonstrate where you're coming from.

There's nothing for me to demonstrate.

If you think you can put together a syllogism that proves that an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God cannot coexist with evil, then the ball's in your court to do that.

Until then, all I have to do is wait for your proof.

 

[ClayTrainor]

All 3 can happen because there is nothing logically contradictory about all 3 being true.

Assertions are not arguments... I truly don't understand how all 3 can be true at the same time, and you're not helping me understand by merely asserting it.

1. God is all good (he is morally against child rape)
2. God is all Powerful (Powerful enough to prevent child rapists from raping children)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen (Children still get raped)

If 3 is true, and 1 is true then 2 cannot be true, otherwise God would use his power to prevent things like child being raped.

If 3 is true and 2 is true then 1 cannot be true, because child rape happens and god chooses not to prevent it, even though being all-powerful implies he can if he wills it.

Demonstrate my flaw for me, so I can better understand.

 

[erowe1]

Assertions are not arguments... I truly don't understand how all 3 can be true at the same time, and you're not helping me understand by merely asserting it.

I can't help you understand how they can be true. And I don't see why understanding how they can is necessary. Saying, "I don't know how how God works." is not the same thing as saying, "It is logically impossible for a God of this definition to exist." You're the one asserting that such a god can't exist. And so far you haven't proven that. Until you can prove that those premises can't all be true, you have no basis for claiming that they can't. And the rest of us have nothing to refute.

 

[ClayTrainor]

There's nothing for me to demonstrate.

The burden of proof is on you, if you're claiming those 3 characteristics as true, since I'm the one who lacks understanding of how they can be true at the same time, and you are the one who is claiming to understand it. So, enlighten me.

 

[ClayTrainor]

This is not the definition of "all good" that you gave in your original presentation of the syllogism.

If this is the definition you mean to use, then all you've proven is that an all-good god, by this particular definition of "all-good," being that he would not allow evil to happen, doesn't exist.

Would an "all-good" god be morally against child rape?

That's all that would be necessary for my example to work.

 

[erowe1]

Assertions are not arguments... I truly don't understand how all 3 can be true at the same time, and you're not helping me understand by merely asserting it.




Demonstrate my flaw for me, so I can better understand.

The flaw in this version of your syllogism (which I note is different than your original version) is your claim that such a god would prevent child rape. But that claim is not implied by any of your premises.

 

[erowe1]

Would an "all-good" god be morally against child rape?

Yes.

Of course this is not the same thing as preventing it, unless you mean to add in another premise saying that it is, which would have to be accepted for the syllogism to be valid.

 

[jmdrake]

Freedom of choice is simply a reality. Choice itself can be used for good or bad.

But the only way an all powerful God could eliminate evil would be to eliminate the possibility of choosing evil. Look at it another way. Let's say if God said "Okay ClayTrainor, I'm going to let you be God for a year and see how you do." Would you get rid of all evil just because you had the power to do so? Why or why not?

Does God have free will of his own, and is there anything limiting the will of God?

Yes God has free will. And He limits Himself. If you were God you would have to limit yourself too.

Let's compare that to the characteristics I illustrated. Correct me where I'm wrong.

Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor
1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision) - You appear to accept this.
2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will without restriction) - You did not clarify this

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen - You appear to accept this.

So, is God is all powerful?

Here's my response:

1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision ultimate moral decision) - Yes I accept that based on Romans 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That doesn't mean that the correct long ultimate moral decision might not mean short term pain for someone.

2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will ultimate will without restriction)

Since you don't understand my view on that I'll clarify. God has more than one will. This is something that trips Calvinists up. God has a permissive will and a perfect will. God "wills" that all would come to repentance. But in His permissive will he allows people to make a choice for wrong. If He didn't then that wouldn't be love because love requires free will. Yes God could override free will and make everyone obey Him. He's powerful enough to do that. But why would He do that? What would be the point?

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen happen but God controls the ultimate outcome.

Yes I believe that. I see the great controversy between God and Satan as a chess match. When evil things happen that's like Satan taking a valuable piece on the board. But God ultimately puts Satan in checkmate. The book of Job illustrates this warfare. Satan was allowed viciously attack Job. But ultimately Job vindicates God by showing that His true followers aren't just hanging on for the blessings.

 

[erowe1]

The burden of proof is on you, if you're claiming those 3 characteristics as true, since I'm the one who lacks understanding of how they can be true at the same time, and you are the one who is claiming to understand it. So, enlighten me.

Actually, no. I'm not claiming to prove anything. I'm just not accepting as valid a syllogism that happens not to be valid.

Lacking understanding of how they can all be true is not the same thing as having a valid proof that they cannot all be true.

I haven't claimed to understand anything other than the fact that your premises do not prove the conclusion you claimed they prove.

 

[ClayTrainor]

The flaw in this version of your syllogism (which I note is different than your original version)

I updated it with the rape example, but the principles are all identicle.

is your claim that such a god would prevent child rape.

Well, not necessarily. I said God would prevent Child rape, on the condition that god is "all good" and "all powerful". Otherwise one of them cannot be true, because it is not moral to let someone rape a child, if you have the power to prevent it. Is it?

 

[ClayTrainor]

]Lacking understanding of how they can all be true is not the same thing as having a valid proof that they cannot all be true.

Are they all true at the same time, or aren't they?

 

[erowe1]

I said God would prevent Child rape, on the condition that god is "all good" and "all powerful". Otherwise one of them cannot be true, because it is not moral to let someone rape a child, if you have the power to prevent it. Is it?

But notice that here you're trucking in another premise, that premise being that an all-good and all-powerful God would prevent child rape. So you need to present your syllogism again with that premise included, such as in the following:

1) God is all-good.
2) God is all-powerful.
3) An all-good and all-powerful god would not allow evil to exist.
4) Evil exists.

Now if you have those 4 statements, there really is a contradiction. Of course, your argument wouldn't be very powerful if you really spelled it all out with that extra premise, since premise 3 is precisely the one that no theist would accept.

 

[ClayTrainor]

But notice that here you're trucking in another premise, that premise being that an all-good and all-powerful God would prevent child rape.

Is it moral to allow child rape to occur, if you have the power to prevent it?

If it is, than God can be both all good and all powerful.

If it is not, than God cannot be both all good and all powerful.

 

[erowe1]

Are they all true at the same time, or aren't they?

That's not the question. The question is "Does all of these statements being true result in a contradiction?" And the answer to that is no, they don't result in a contradiction.

This doesn't mean that God does exist. It only means that the alleged proof that he doesn't exist is not valid.

Do I happen to think the statements are all true? Yes I do. Do I claim to understand how? No I don't. Do I contradict myself in believing them all? No I don't.

 

[erowe1]

It it moral to allow child rape to occur, if you have the power to prevent it?

Yes it is. And I can prove it.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Now if you have those 4 statements, there really is a contradiction.

Well, I don't have 4 statements, I only have 3.

1. God is all good (he is morally against child rape)
2. God is all Powerful (Powerful enough to prevent child rapists from raping children)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen (Children still get raped)

And I truly don't understand how they can all be true at the same time, and you appear to be unwilling to explain it to me. Oh well...

 

[jmdrake]

Is it moral to allow child rape to occur, if you have the power to prevent it?

Was it moral for God to allow Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery even though He (God) could have prevented it? What was the ultimate outcome?

Edit: And someday you should watch the Donnie McClurkin story. In it he deals with his own conversation to God about why he was allowed to be raped as a child. Very moving.