god or no god?

[jmdrake]

If "God" is claimed to have the following characteristics

1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision)
2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will without restriction)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen

Only 2 of the 3 statements above can possibly be true at the same time, therefore that God can't possibly exist.

You must not believe that freedom of choice is good. I do. Here's my rebuttal.

1) God is good.
2) Freedom of choice is good.
3) Freedom of choice means that people/entities/whatever must be able to chose bad as well as good.
4) Bad things do indeed happen.

Take all 4 of these things together and God can indeed exist. In fact God's existence makes more sense than his non existence. Through his sovereignty God puts limits on evil. Take any evil event you can think of and you can find where it was limited. Look at the human yearning for liberty and freedom despite generations of oppression. What is that spark within us that causes us all to yearn for something better? It's God.

 

[ClayTrainor]

You must not believe that freedom of choice is good.

Freedom of choice is simply a reality. Choice itself can be used for good or bad.

Does God have free will of his own, and is there anything limiting the will of God?

1) God is good.
2) Freedom of choice is good.
3) Freedom of choice means that people/entities/whatever must be able to chose bad as well as good.
4) Bad things do indeed happen.

Let's compare that to the characteristics I illustrated. Correct me where I'm wrong.

1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision) - You appear to accept this.
2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will without restriction) - You did not clarify this

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen - You appear to accept this.

So, is God is all powerful?

 

[ClayTrainor]

This would only be true if there were something about premises 1 and 2 that made it impossible for evil and bad things to happen. I don't see anything about them that does that.

If God is "all powerful" than I have no choice to assume that includes the power to stop bad things from happening, otherwise he/she/it is not exactly all-powerful.

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

So, is God is all powerful?

Yes and yes to all other questions, from my perspective anyway. God is omnipotent and can do anything he wants, providing it is logically possible (there are no round squares, or married bachelors).

God chose to create a world where we have free will. He chose for that world to have limitations and consequences; the water that nourishes you can also drown you and the fire that warms you can also burn you. To take away these consequences makes free choice irrelevant, and humans would not be free at all, but in fact slaves.

 

[erowe1]

If God is "all powerful" than I have no choice to assume that includes the power to stop bad things from happening, otherwise he/she/it is not exactly all-powerful.

I agree. But that still doesn't make the conclusion that God doesn't exist follow from the premises you presented. Did you perhaps leave out some other premise?

 

[donnay]

Here is my take:

I loathe organize religion. The way I see it is, all organized religions have been infiltrated by satan and his minions. Satan doesn't need the athiest or the agnostic to get back at God, he needs the people who believe. That's where the battle is!

Government tries to make people believe they are benevolent and they are good. They want people to believe they are their saviors and that we should blindly trust them, as we have done with God. The first commandment say: "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:1-3) Government entices all religions to take a tax deduction...a 501(c)(3). Basically, what that does is gag any real clergy from speaking any politics up at the pulpit. The history of our country, the Revolution was inspired by the Black Robed Regiment, just to give you an idea where I going with this. Go to this pastors written word, he lays it all out quit sucinctly. What Happens When The Church Is Not Free

Then we have so many organized religions, with clergy who go around like lawyers, giving their interpretations of God's word. They complicate and twist much of it, when it all reality, there are many passages, in the Bible, which are simple to understand--example: John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whom so ever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life." You must have your own personal relationship with God, you must ask him to guide you, and direct you--basically help show you the way. It is wise to fellowship, but that doesn't necessarily mean you must sit in a church every Sunday.

“Just because you go to church doesn't mean you're a Christian. I can go sit in the garage all day and it doesn't make me a car” ~Joyce Meyer

We are fellowshiping right now, just by this dialogue. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20)

I cannot prove something, as so many others here have already stated--because it is personal and spirtual relationship you must seek. But one thing is abundantly clear, there is a definite battle of Good and Evil all around us. It's instinctual and why it knaws on us until we seek the truth.

John 8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

 

[ClayTrainor]

Yes and yes to all other questions, from my perspective anyway. God is omnipotent and can do anything he wants, providing it is logically possible (there are no round squares, or married bachelors).

Okay, thanks for answering!

I believe God is also said to be "all-knowing" (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God is all powerful, and all-knowing, than he/she/it is aware of child rapists and actually has the power to prevent a child from being raped, but chooses not to intervene, on the basis of free-will?

Fair or no?

 

[ClayTrainor]

I agree. But that still doesn't make the conclusion that God doesn't exist follow from the premises you presented.

I'm not saying a God doesn't exist, I'm saying that specific God, with those specific characteristics cannot exist because it involves a logical contradiction for all 3 statements to be true at the same time.

 

[erowe1]

I'm not saying a God doesn't exist, I'm saying that specific God, with those specific characteristics cannot exist because it involves a logical contradiction for all 3 statements to be true at the same time.

But there is no logical contradiction there. There's only you claiming there is one.

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

I believe God is also said to be "all-knowing" (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God is all powerful, and all-knowing, than he/she/it is aware of child rapists and actually has the power to prevent a child from being raped, but chooses not to intervene, on the basis of free-will?

Fair or no?

Not fair, but moral. Keep in mind these kinds of arguments are mostly based on their emotional impact rather than sound reasoning. God chooses also not to prevent my hangnail from hurting, or prevent a driver from denting my bumper, or stop my ice cream headache. This is because God wants us to be free and we are not completely free unless we bare the brunt of the consequences of our actions. Otherwise we are not free, but in a sheltered, nurtured cage where we never grow as people.

 

[ClayTrainor]

But there is no logical contradiction there.

Allow me to demonstrate...

1. God is all good (he is morally against child rape)
2. God is all Powerful (Powerful enough to prevent child rapists from raping children)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen (Children still get raped)

You cannot logically say all 3 of the above are true at the same time.

If 3 is true, and 1 is true then 2 cannot be true, otherwise God would use his power to prevent things like child being raped.

If 3 is true and 2 is true then 1 cannot be true, because child rape happens and god chooses not to prevent it, even though being all-powerful implies he can if he wills it.

There's only you claiming there is one.

There is only you claiming there is not one.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Not fair, but moral.

What specifically is not fair about it?

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

"Fair" is not an appropriate word.

 

[erowe1]

Allow me to demonstrate...



You cannot logically say all 3 of the above are true at the same time.

If 3 is true, and 1 is true then 2 cannot be true, otherwise God would use his power to prevent things like child rape from happening.

If 3 is true and 2 is true then 1 cannot be true, because child rape happens and god chooses not to prevent it, even though being all-powerful implies he can if he chooses to do so.



There is only you claiming there is not one.

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate the contradiction. It looks like you're trying to sneak another premise in there without admitting it. Where did you get the idea that "God would use his power to prevent things like child rape from happening."? It isn't in the original premises anywhere.

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

Where did you get the idea that "God would use his power to prevent things like child rape from happening."? It isn't in the original syllogism anywhere.

Agreed. This is an unsupported assumption.

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

 

[ClayTrainor]

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate the contradiction.

It's very obvious. If you don't see it, than you are wilfully ignoring it.

Where did you get the idea that "God would use his power to prevent things like child rape from happening."? It isn't in the original premises anywhere.

If God is all Good, than that implies that he would prevent a child rape if he had the power, otherwise he is not all good. It is not moral to let child rape happen, when you have the power to prevent it.

 

[ClayTrainor]

erowe1[/B]]It looks like you're trying to sneak another premise in there without admitting it.

What premise am I sneaking in?

Also, Explain to me how all 3 can be true at the same time.

1. God is all good (he is morally against child rape)
2. God is all Powerful (Powerful enough to prevent child rapists from raping children)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen (Children still get raped)

 

[erowe1]

It's very obvious. If you don't see it, than you are wilfully ignoring it.

But if you think you actually presented a tight logical syllogism, you should be capable of presenting it clearly and explicitly. And if it's really that obvious, it should be that much easier for you to do that. I think NapolitanicWars might be right, and you're just going with an emotion driven gut feeling rather than actual logic.

 

[erowe1]

What premise am I sneaking in?

Also, Explain to me how all 3 can be true at the same time.

Sure. Here's the explanation.

All 3 can happen because there is nothing logically contradictory about all 3 being true.