god or no god?

Well respect goes to you for actually being able to name some books, far better than LE - who can't even get that far. WHGDWOM:Rothbard is a good intro to money. Jekyll Island isn't Austrian, but deals in the same concepts. Neither is an intro to economics, or deals with methodology at all.

Again with the fallacy of separating theory and practice. If it is BAD in practice/reality, it is BAD in theory. There is no "good in theory" bs. If it's good in theory, it's good in reality/life/objectively true.

Wrong. Communism is perfect in theory if assumptions are true. Your views are as well.

Reality and life does not give you the assumptions you want. That's why ancap isn't reality.



They are axiomatic. You cannot deny them, without affirming them. You're essentially trying to argue, that you cannot argue. Totally absurd.

LIE. Axiom means you CAN deny them, and if you do, you have no argument.
Axioms are necessary for an argument, but nothing and nowhere else, they are, after all, words.
This is where you are totally detached from reality, for one, not considering you can be wrong, for two, completely ignoring that reality does not fit your theory.
If I had to add for three, it's calling somebody absurd based on a series of words you composed yourself.


The laws of economics are immutable.

That may be, but that doesn't follow you have them all on your fingertips or that they're as simple as you think.


States, governments, groups, whoever... cannot defy them. You can try deny them, but it is like gravity. You can defy gravity for a period of time (think the Vomit Comet) but only for so long, (so governments print money... try avoid the depression/recession), eventually.. if they don't stop they'll crash (the economy) into the ground.

Tell that to the people who've either defied or ignored the laws of economics and made bank, died rich. I'm sure they care about how they "eventually" have to pay the consequences, they don't. If results and crimes last longer than a decade, it's practically violatable.



You don't think understanding what is going to happen (just not specifically when) is not a benefit for real life?! You think Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, Hugh Hendry, yada yada are all a joke?

Yes, I think they are all jokes. Even though I've only heard of Schiff. The fact I've not heard of the rest tells me one thing, I can, do and will live life perfectly fine without them. And they've managed to not be noticed and have zero impact on most of the market and world. Good job on being right. Peter Schiff didn't use his knowledge to become the top 100 richest men in the world, good job on knowing economics. Let me know when you can impress me. I think understanding without application is not beneficial, unless feeling good counts as benefit.
 
It explains why in every country in the world people aspire to those rights even though they are oppressed by their leaders. It's like you can put enough weight on a life vest to sink it to the bottom of the ocean. But as soon as you cut the weight it will rise to the top.

the fact there are oppressors EVERYWHERE is proof that it's NOT so obviously ingrained in our soul. And that people get away with it without remorse (not enough remorse to undo their damages)

Possibly. Freedom != peace. Ants have a completely peaceful society and a completely enslaved one. Ants only fight other ant colonies. But you'll never see ants rebel against their own queen. They by instinct have no rights. Thank you for making my argument for me.

We can burn the Bible and Constitution and still have a peaceful society? If so, let's do it!
I'm not convinced it's ingrained in our soul to have rights, but I am open to the possibility we can have a peaceful society, ignoring all rights :)
 
Comon logic says there is God or some super natural force that allows things to come into existence. Organization religion is probably all BS but for one to say there is no super natural force controlling the universe is smoking some serious stuff.

Things don't just pop out of nowhere. To build a table, work is done. To build a car, work is done. To build a universe, work must be done and energy must go into it.
 
See, this was the point I made earlier... I said I doubted you'd read a book in the last 30 years on Libertarianism or Austrian Economics... that's why I asked you what they were, and you couldn't / didn't answer. I put me showcasing Ron Paul and his voluntarism to 4,000 people on the table and you still couldn't respond. You got to the John Birch Society, and you've been stuck there for 30 years.

Yes, before I found Ron Paul I had become interested in Noam Chomsky's work. Why? Because I was looking for the truth, so I looked for the most well known intellectual. I thought he was absolutely right on US foreign policy, he was saying the US was an empire... he was saying everything Ron Paul had been saying as I was to later find out. What he was saying was obvious. I then found RP through one of his videos, someone had spammed "Ron Paul America's last hope".

I've come further intellectually in a few years, than you have in decades LE. That's what's so disheartening.

So... what were those books LE, you didn't answer.

Nope, wrong. That shows how little you know about me. But, like they say in politics, don't argue with someone beneath you. So, I won't. But, I will give you something you might want to take to heart.

Reading large numbers of books means absolutely nothing, if you are unable to digest the information and put it into practice in some meaningful way. That means that you should be able to form an argument with your own words, rather than merely filling your posts with one quote after another from a book you have read and obviously not understood.
 
Nope, wrong. That shows how little you know about me. But, like they say in politics, don't argue with someone beneath you. So, I won't. But, I will give you something you might want to take to heart.

Reading large numbers of books means absolutely nothing, if you are unable to digest the information and put it into practice in some meaningful way. That means that you should be able to form an argument with your own words, rather than merely filling your posts with one quote after another from a book you have read and obviously not understood.

he admits he has no "ought", and then he tells you that what's good in theory is good in reality, what can you say to a kid completely blind of the world?
 
Wrong. Communism is perfect in theory if assumptions are true. Your views are as well.

Reality and life does not give you the assumptions you want. That's why ancap isn't reality.

"Let us proceed, then, to a critique of the egalitarian ideal itself-should equality be granted its current status as an unquestioned ethical ideal? In the first place, we must challenge the very idea of a radical separation between something that is “true in theory” but “not valid in practice.”

If a theory is correct, then it does work in practice; if it does not work in practice, then it is a bad theory. The common separation between theory and practice is an artificial and fallacious one. But this is true in ethics as well as anything else. If an ethical ideal is inherently “impractical,” that is, if it cannot work in practice, then it is a poor ideal and should be discarded forthwith.

To put it more precisely, if an ethical goal violates the nature of man and/or the universe and, therefore, cannot work in practice, then it is a bad ideal and should be dismissed as a goal. If the goal itself violates the nature of man, then it is also a poor idea to work in the direction of that goal."

Still yet to address that.

LIE. Axiom means you CAN deny them, and if you do, you have no argument.
Axioms are necessary for an argument, but nothing and nowhere else, they are, after all, words.
This is where you are totally detached from reality, for one, not considering you can be wrong, for two, completely ignoring that reality does not fit your theory.
If I had to add for three, it's calling somebody absurd based on a series of words you composed yourself.

“if a man cannot affirm a proposition without employing its negation, he is not only caught in an inextricable self-contradiction; he is conceding to the negation the status of an axiom.” Rothbard, Individualism, p. 8, Crusoe Philosophy - Rthics of Liberty, note 6.

Praxeology consists of two main elements: (1) the fundamental axioms, and (2) the propositions successively deduced from these axioms. Neither the axioms or the deduced propositions can be "tested" or verified by appeal to historical fact. However, although the axioms are a priori to history, they are a posteriori to the universal observations of the logic structure of the human mind and human action. The axioms are therefore open to the test of observation in the sense that, once postulated, they are universally recognized as true. Such recognition may be accused of being "introspective", but it is nonetheless scientific, since it is introspection that can command the agreement of all. The deductive propositions are tested according to the universally accepted laws of logic. (Laws, incidentally, which are also a priori to historical fact.) The fact that a proposition comes at the end of a "long chain of deduction" makes it no less valid than a proposition at the end of a short chain.

Rothbard, Mises Comment.

This axiom, the proposition that humans act, fulfills the requirements precisely for a true synthetic a priori proposition. It cannot be denied that this proposition is true, since the denial would have to be categorized as an action and so the truth of the statement literally cannot be undone. And the axiom is also not derived from observation-there are only bodily movements to be observed but no such things as actions-but stems instead from reflective understanding.

Moreover, as something that has to be understood rather than observed, it is still knowledge about reality. This is because the conceptual distinctions involved in this understanding are nothing less than the categories employed in the mind's interaction with the physical world by means of its own physical body. And the axiom of action in all its implications is certainly not self-evident in a psychological sense, although once made explicit it can be understood as an undeniably true proposition about something real and existent. [18]

Tell that to the people who've either defied or ignored the laws of economics and made bank, died rich. I'm sure they care about how they "eventually" have to pay the consequences, they don't. If results and crimes last longer than a decade, it's practically violatable.

Where they happy? Pleasure does not equal happiness. Are dictators happy? Their actions were not virtuous.

Yes, I think they are all jokes. Even though I've only heard of Schiff. The fact I've not heard of the rest tells me one thing, I can, do and will live life perfectly fine without them. And they've managed to not be noticed and have zero impact on most of the market and world. Good job on being right. Peter Schiff didn't use his knowledge to become the top 100 richest men in the world, good job on knowing economics. Let me know when you can impress me. I think understanding without application is not beneficial, unless feeling good counts as benefit.

Argument from Ignorance fallacy.


he admits he has no "ought", and then he tells you that what's good in theory is good in reality, what can you say to a kid completely blind of the world?

Libertarianism is meta-normative, it is about what actions you have a RIGHT to do, not whether you OUGHT TO, or SHOULD... that is completely irrelevant to libertarianism. However, if you don't want to be punished.. you probably shouldn't violate others rights ;).

What's bad in theory, is bad because it doesn't conform to reality you dunce. You're the one who proposes communism is good, not me! And you say I'm completely blind to the world? :rolleyes:
 
Nope, wrong. That shows how little you know about me. But, like they say in politics, don't argue with someone beneath you. So, I won't. But, I will give you something you might want to take to heart.

Reading large numbers of books means absolutely nothing, if you are unable to digest the information and put it into practice in some meaningful way. That means that you should be able to form an argument with your own words, rather than merely filling your posts with one quote after another from a book you have read and obviously not understood.

You've done nothing to suggest otherwise LE. That's great, you'd first need to be above me ;).

Really? You think I don't know that? :rolleyes: LE, I can form an argument with my own words.. whether the person I am conversing with is WORTH me spending the time it takes to do so, is another matter all together. Generally; they're like you... intellectually dishonest and not open to reason, so why waste my time writing responses into my own words, when I know exactly the fallacy they are using, because I once believed the same thing.
 
If a theory is correct, then it does work in practice; if it does not work in practice, then it is a bad theory.

then I'll say it's a bad theory because it DOES NOT work in practice.

Just because I was generous enough to grant you it was good in theory doesn't mean I agree with your conclusion. If you insist something can only be good on both or bad on both, then we'll go with bad on both.


The common separation between theory and practice is an artificial and fallacious one.

If you live in a dream world, that would be true.

But this is true in ethics as well as anything else. If an ethical ideal is inherently “impractical,” that is, if it cannot work in practice, then it is a poor ideal and should be discarded forthwith.

So then your views deserve zero benefit of doubt.
 
Libertarianism is meta-normative, it is about what actions you have a RIGHT to do, not whether you OUGHT TO, or SHOULD... that is completely irrelevant to libertarianism. However, if you don't want to be punished.. you probably shouldn't violate others rights ;).

What's bad in theory, is bad because it doesn't conform to reality you dunce. You're the one who proposes communism is good, not me! And you say I'm completely blind to the world? :rolleyes:

I said communism is good in theory if you granted certain assumptions, thanks for taking me out of context.

I NEVER EVER said communism is good in practice or works in practice, and I will say ancap is the same. Libertarianism to a good extent too, depending on how you define it.

If theory and reality are not different, then why are they not the same word? I guess you're saying there's no such thing as "in theory", "theoretical".
 
People are still trying to use human reason to understand things greater then human reason, things before there ever was human reason or even before human beings for that matter. Before the very beginning of the Big Bang. As such, in this vast mutli-universe cosmos which they believe is teaming with life and invisible intelligent extraterrestrial beings, they have made human reason to be their 'God' and the source and definer of what is reality and what is the truth (even when their eyes are easily fooled and their memories so easily fading). Of all there is to possibly know, they have made their human reason to be the Truth. It is an idolization of the human faculty of reason, worshiped most ardently and faithful by those who have in fact made idols of their three pound brain.

God is not defined nor can God be known based solely on human reason. Until the mind can understand that, then the heart remains closed, and if the heart is closed, then God will not enter in it and reveal Himself. God is not proved by the mind, but known by the soul. By that of which the mind is but merely a tool, a limited and fallible tool at that, and at worst, ego-maniacal and evil.

To them that wish to know God, then open your hearts! To them that wish to not know God, then I beg that you cease in continuing the idolization of your minds. I am not saying that with malice against the one. This is not a condemnation to the non-believer, or the one who is trying to know the truth and is searching in truth and in faith. Rather, a wake up call to those who persist in forcing their 'church of human reason' unto those who rather put their faith in the Church of the Jesus Christ. This forum is dedicated to promoting Ron Paul's message and beliefs, of which the belief of Jesus Christ plays an important part, playing perhaps the most important role in the forming of his very moral fiber and character and disposition.

So the mocking of people who believe in Christianity as fools (which some have done) on a website dedicated to a Christian who happens to be the most honest, consistent, and courageous politician in generations should be restrained if not eliminated. To those who desire to, I say please keep your comments to yourselves or go hash it out on Belief.net or something. We are entering the most critical time of this liberty movement, the next few weeks and months may be the most (politically) significant in our lives. Things that are posted which insult Jesus Christ, Who the person this website is named after considers Lord and Savior, will be flagged and the moderators should take appropriate action. There are too many people fighting Ron Paul as it is and hindering his campaign for presidency, whether knowingly or in ignorance. Let us concentrate on those things we share in common and work on the goal we all wish to come true, namely Ron Paul as the next President of the United States.
 
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then I'll say it's a bad theory because it DOES NOT work in practice.

Just because I was generous enough to grant you it was good in theory doesn't mean I agree with your conclusion. If you insist something can only be good on both or bad on both, then we'll go with bad on both.

If you live in a dream world, that would be true.

So then your views deserve zero benefit of doubt.

Let's see your argument against self-ownership and original appropriation.... 3, 2, 1.. go! :rolleyes:

I said communism is good in theory if you granted certain assumptions, thanks for taking me out of context.

I NEVER EVER said communism is good in practice or works in practice, and I will say ancap is the same. Libertarianism to a good extent too, depending on how you define it.

If theory and reality are not different, then why are they not the same word? I guess you're saying there's no such thing as "in theory", "theoretical".

Good in theory, good in practice. The market works. Quite simple really.

Theory and reality are linked; I'm saying if your theory of something is wrong/illogical/in error/flawed it is thus a bad theory and not descriptive of reality.

You really need to educate yourself on praxeology and human action.
 
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Let's see your argument against self-ownership and original appropriation.... 3, 2, 1.. go! :rolleyes:

I don't understand your question.

I don't believe all human beings are capable of self ownership or self government, if that's what you're asking.

Good in theory, good in practice. The market works. Quite simple really.

Now I see the problem, your brain is too simple.

You equate the market with human nature, society and a self sustaining political system. Ignoring the fact that the market is not self sustaining, it relies on assumptions such as recognition and enforcement of human rights, property protection, anti-monopolistic distribution of resources, all of which are NOT a given in real life, never was. This is why you think you don't need a change in human nature, you don't know it.

Citing a book doesn't make you right, citing reality works better. If you can cite reality, why rely on books I've not read?

Theory and reality are linked; I'm saying if your theory of something is wrong/illogical/in error/flawed it is thus a bad theory and not descriptive of reality.
Fair, then I would say your idea of self government is a bad theory, because it's not worked in practice (if it did, it would never stop working, if it's currently working, then I don't need to know about it).

You really need to educate yourself on praxeology and human action.

I do? So I can be a kid posting online every day arguing with people over citations?
My life and income speaks for itself, because I understand the market, I understand humans, and I've used it to the best of my advantages. I don't seek to change human nature, nor am I afraid anybody will. I don't need to educate people about what I know about capitalism or property, because the "science" I am knowledgeable of works regardless of what THEY believe.

I hope the knowledge you have has given you advantages in becoming rich, successful and happy. Otherwise I seriously wonder what value it is to you for "being right". Like I said, I don't care if I am right according to some kid on the internet, I know what I've done for myself, and I regret none of it.
 
If "God" is claimed to have the following characteristics

1. God is all good (He/she/it always makes the correct moral decision)
2. God is all Powerful (ability to carry out his/her/its will without restriction)

And we accept that...

3. Evil and Bad things happen

Only 2 of the 3 statements above can possibly be true at the same time, therefore that God can't possibly exist.

The contradiction formulated above is not a contradiction, unless one labels their own morality to be the defining truth of goodness. For example, it does not allow the possibility that bad things might actually be necessary. A piece of ore held to the flame of fire seems like violence to the ore, a perceived injustice or evil act, but without it the gold within it cannot be purified and glow and reflect the radiance of light.

What might be more importantly asked is 'why would God give us free will'?

The answer is, 'because He loves us'.

God is all good.
God is all powerful.
Evil is a reality which our prideful and disobedient minds cannot comprehend.
It is the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that was in the Garden, the only fruit forbidden to Adam (which if he ate from without the consent of God and in faithful obedience to His holy will, would 'surely' cause him to die). And die, he did.
But his estrangement from God was healed by Jesus Christ on the cross.
The paradox of all paradoxes, prophecized though hardly understood, becomes the ultimate revelation of the love of God, and in fact, of God Himself, Who is Love. In the sign of the Cross. The Crucified Savior vanquishes evil, the Risen Christ tramples over death, the Ascended Anointed of God become King and Judge of heaven and over all of creation.

The Christian faith is simple to understand, hard to accept, and almost impossible to live without submitting oneself to God's will, the way Adam should have done while in Paradise. And to those who do, we call them saints.
 
I don't understand your question.

That's what libertarianism is founded upon, self-ownership.


"Ethics - the validity of the principle of self-ownership and original appropriation - is demonstrably not dependent and contingent upon agreement or contract; and the universality claim connected with Rothbard's libertarianism is not affected in the slightest by the circumstance that moral discussants may or may not always come to an agreement or contract. Ethics is the logical-praxeological presupposition - in Kantian terminology: die Bedingung der Moeglichkeit - rather than the result of agreement or contract. The principles of self-ownership and original appropriation make agreement and contract - including that of not agreeing and contracting - possible. Set in motion and stimulated by the universal experience of conflict, moral discussion and argument can discover, reconstruct, explicate, and formulate the principles of self-ownership and original appropriation, but their validity in no way depends on whether or not this is the case, and if so whether or not these formulations then find universal assent." - Hoppe, Intro to TEOL.


I don't believe all human beings are capable of self ownership or self government, if that's what you're asking.

:confused:.

Myth #6: Libertarians believe that every person knows his own interests best.

Now I see the problem, your brain is too simple.

Oh, whoops.. you seem to have mistaken me dumbing things down for you.. as inadequacy on my behalf. My bad.

You equate the market with human nature, society and a self sustaining political system. Ignoring the fact that the market is not self sustaining, it relies on assumptions such as recognition and enforcement of human rights, property protection, anti-monopolistic distribution of resources, all of which are NOT a given in real life, never was. This is why you think you don't need a change in human nature, you don't know it.

Citing a book doesn't make you right, citing reality works better. If you can cite reality, why rely on books I've not read?


"The Free market is a summary term for an array of exchanges that take place in society. Each exchange is undertaken as a voluntary agreement between two people or between groups of people represented by agents." - MNR

"While the purely free and laissez-faire society arises unselfconsciously where people are given free rein to exert their creative energies, statism has been the dominant principle throughout history. Where State despotism already exists, then liberty can only arise from a self-conscious ideological movement that wages a protracted struggle against statism, and reveals to the mass of the public the grave flaw in its acceptance of the propaganda of the ruling classes. The role of this "revolutionary" movement is to mobilize the various ranks of the oppressed masses, and to desanctify and delegitimize the rule of the State in their eyes." - Capitalism versus Statism, MNR (http://mises.org/story/3735) *Good para's preceding this :).

"The actions which comprise the formation of government are not market actions."

Fair, then I would say your idea of self government is a bad theory, because it's not worked in practice (if it did, it would never stop working, if it's currently working, then I don't need to know about it).

You still don't seem to get it.


"My entire argument, then, claims to be an impossibility proof. But not, as the mentioned critics seem to think, a proof that means to show the impossibility of certain empirical events so that it could be refuted, by empirical evidence. Instead, it is a proof that it is impossible to propositionally justify non-libertarian principles without falling into contradictions."

For whatever such a thing is worth (and I'll come to this shortly), it should be clear that empirical evidence has absolutely no bearing on it. So what if there is slavery, the Gulag, taxation? The proof concerns the issue that claiming such institutions can be justified, involves a performative contradiction. It is purely intellectual in nature, like logical, mathematical, or praxeological proofs." ~ Hoppe, pg 8


You're currently guilty of assuming perfect beings. The Infallibist fallacy comes to mind. A variant on the Nirvana fallacy. "...it commits what we shall hereafter refer to as the “infallibilist fallacy”—i.e., the equation of epistemological terms, such as “knowledge” and “certainty,” with a standard of infallibility, which is completely inappropriate to man and to the science of knowledge in general." - George H. Smith

Humans err, which is.. part of their nature. :cool:


I do? So I can be a kid posting online every day arguing with people over citations?
My life and income speaks for itself, because I understand the market, I understand humans, and I've used it to the best of my advantages. I don't seek to change human nature, nor am I afraid anybody will. I don't need to educate people about what I know about capitalism or property, because the "science" I am knowledgeable of works regardless of what THEY believe.

I hope the knowledge you have has given you advantages in becoming rich, successful and happy. Otherwise I seriously wonder what value it is to you for "being right". Like I said, I don't care if I am right according to some kid on the internet, I know what I've done for myself, and I regret none of it.

Quite amusing the hypocrisy here. There's a thing called demonstrated preference in economics. Or in laymens terms, 'actions speak louder than words', your actions dictate you care. Care enough to respond anyway hahah.

So... you knew about the housing bubble before it burst? You've been buying gold and commodities for ages now? Yeah?
 
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the fact there are oppressors EVERYWHERE is proof that it's NOT so obviously ingrained in our soul. And that people get away with it without remorse (not enough remorse to undo their damages)

I see the life jacket analogy went right over your head. Why am I not surprised? The point that you miss is that without having the desire to be free ingrained in our soul there would not be the need for oppressors. And "Go to the ant" to understand. Ants don't "oppress" each other. They don't have to. They just all fall in line for the common "good". The very fact that oppressors need to oppress to keep their populations in line proves that your whole premise is wrong.


We can burn the Bible and Constitution and still have a peaceful society? If so, let's do it!

Where did I say that? I didn't. Quite the opposite. If you try to oppress people by forcing your own views on them (burning Bibles for instance) you will not end up with a peaceful society. You've made it clear that you don't understand freedom at all.
 
I don't believe all human beings are capable of self ownership or self government, if that's what you're asking.

Now I see the problem, your brain is too simple.

Aha! I see your problem now. You really don't understand freedom. You're hostile to religion, but you're hostile to libertarian thought too. That puts you right in with who? Mao? Anyway when you've grown up to the point of being able to have discussions without resulting to childish insults, let the rest of us know.
 
Aha! I see your problem now. You really don't understand freedom. You're hostile to religion, but you're hostile to libertarian thought too. That puts you right in with who? Mao? Anyway when you've grown up to the point of being able to have discussions without resulting to childish insults, let the rest of us know.

Oh yes, there's no such thing as a person who dislikes both freedom and religion other than Mao.
 
I see the life jacket analogy went right over your head. Why am I not surprised? The point that you miss is that without having the desire to be free ingrained in our soul there would not be the need for oppressors. And "Go to the ant" to understand. Ants don't "oppress" each other. They don't have to. They just all fall in line for the common "good". The very fact that oppressors need to oppress to keep their populations in line proves that your whole premise is wrong.

Where did I say that? I didn't. Quite the opposite. If you try to oppress people by forcing your own views on them (burning Bibles for instance) you will not end up with a peaceful society. You've made it clear that you don't understand freedom at all.

There isn't a NEED for oppressors, they just exist because they can get away with it. But even if there was a need, why does that prove my premise wrong? Why does that not show not all humans want and desire freedom (especially for others)?

You said possibly, when I asked if that would happen. If it's not possible, say it's not possible.

Burning books is not oppressing people, unless books are people.
 

Awesome, if NOT all people know their own best interest, then your argument completely fails.

Unless, you're ready to tell me that libertarianism and ancap (which one are you again?) does not benefit all people, and those who are detrimented by it deserve to be harmed. If so, then I agree with you. I will not though, say that libertarian benefits all humans because all humans act rationally, mathematically, with greed, consciously, it's just not true, and not human nature.
 
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