GM to import Chinese cars; trickle in 2011 will turn to flood in 2014

[tmosley]

Yes, free trade has been a great success story. After all, we have the most open borders in the world and look how great our economy is today. Who needs Detroit anyway, or Ohio, or a middle class? Now that all our manufacturing is gone we are all better off for it. Those overpaid American factory workers will just have to retrain and adapt to the new knowledge economy like us smart people have done.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND TAXATION KILLED OFF OUR MANUFACTURING SECTOR, NOT FOREIGN COMPETITION.

Oh, but now the tech jobs and white collar jobs and knowledge jobs are leaving too. Well, it's all well and good because it's free trade, which enriches us all and does nothing but good for us.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND TAXATION DROVE THOSE JOBS AWAY.

Who needs American manufacturing or American engineers or American computer programmers or Boeing or GM? We have Toyota and Infosys and Airbus. Foreigners do those jobs cheaper and better than us so let them have those jobs and their profits and their trade surpluses.

WE WOULD BE BETTER IF WE DIDN'T HAVE GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAX.

Let's see if I have the free trade argument correct. The Mexicans and the Chinese do the grunt work because they are dumb and poor and will work for peanuts, and we smart Americans are so smart and creative that we can sit in our cubicles making big salaries doing smart things and playing solitaire and then drive home in our BMWs to our McMansions built by illegal aliens with Canadian lumber and stucco and Chinese lead-based paint. Yes, I remember that was how it goes.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES.

And now because we Americans are so smart, we can let the Indians and the Chinese sit in our cubicles and do our knowledge jobs and the Mexicans can take the grunt work here in America that we no longer do. Hey, for every American there are a million foreigners who will do it cheaper. It's all economical, you see. We smart Americans will use this economic efficiency to go out and get new jobs doing... What do we do now? I forget where the storyline goes from here. We become poets or astronauts or bond traders or something.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAX.

No, that wasn't it. Because we don't produce anything of value anymore, we live off the bubble economy and sell houses to each other and trade stocks on the Internet and take out HELOCs to pay for all that cheap stuff at Costco that's made overseas. Yeah, that was why this stimulus package was imperative -- because the foundation of our economy is now made up of people in big box stores selling foreign-made consumer goods to each other. And it is of utmost importance to keep housing prices inflating so we can still have HELOCs to pay for all that crap at Wal-Mart and Best Buy, because if we stop shopping the whole world will end. In the free trader's America, shopping is the new patriotism.

BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAX.

Yay for America's open borders! Yay for NAFTA and CAFTA and the WTO! Bring on the Indians, Chinese and Mexicans by the millions and millions and millions! Bring on multi-culturalism and the New World Order! Yay for the CFR! Free trade is all they said it would be and more! We don't need to produce anything! We have credit cards!

Exactly. We have all the stuff they made, even though we don't deserve it. Americans haven't been working for a living, they've been sucking at the teat of the unions and the government, while allowing themselves to become slaves to government taxes and regulation, which prevents them from become productive. If it weren't for the economic bubble and free trade, this would have come to a head 15 years ago. Thus, free trade can only stabilize economies, and those nations that don't have free trade (ie China, Korea) subsidize importers (US).

Give us free trade and open borders and we will all be happy and equal as members of the global proletariat!

STOP POSTING FUCKING STRAWMEN, YOU SHITHEAD.

 

[tmosley]

Utter, total nonsense.

Tariffs were written into the constitution as the only form of taxation available to the fedgov for a reason.

Yes, so there could be a federal government, because they had no other income stream. They were fairly low, not particularly protectionist, as others in this thread want (ie they want to shut out all foreign competition, whether or not they are supported by their respective governments).

Under a tariff system that had, in spite of the corrupting influences that any government system will fall prey to, the national interest at heart, we, as a nation, led the world and all of recorded history in the advancement of science, industry and living standards.

That's because we HAD NO GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS OR TAXES.

And did it all in a period of less than two hundred years.

And in much less time, a "globalized free trade policy" and elimination of any real trade and import tariffs and duties has led us to bankruptcy, insolvency, an illegal migration demographic war and a "real world" decline of middle class living standards. Oh, and not to mention a staggering tax burden.

No, it's because we now have central economic planning, and GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS AND INCOME TAXES.

China and India are regarded as the new economic dynamos of the 21st century.

They impose heavy import tariffs.

How can that be, if tariffs are the ultimate evil in regards to economic growth.

I never said that tariffs are the ultimate evil, I said that they don't support growth, only the lack of GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES does that. Their tariffs have supported us, allowing us to buy their shit with little pieces of paper rather than our own goods. They got robbed. Our manufacturing sector didn't go into decline because of free trade, it was in decline for DECADES before free trade was enacted. Their decline is due 100% to GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXes.

 

[moostraks]

"The Japanese would have us believe that they are adding American jobs, but for every job the transplants create, we lose two because the average transplant car produced has only 48% domestic content. The average U.S. car produced domestically has 88% domestic content. This contrasts to the 1% domestic content of an imported car....

Japan spends over $100 million a year for Washington lobbyists, super lawyers and political advisers and $300 million to expand pro-Japanese state and local political networks.

A 1986 General Accounting Office survey revealed that 76 former high federal officials had become registered foreign agents. They ranged from former bureaucrats, White House staffers and congressmen to retired generals. These ex-officials represented 166 foreign clients from 52 countries and two international entities. Almost a third of them work for Japan.Almost a third of them work for Japan; so why don't we do the same in Japan?

Simple, Japan does not tolerate top government officials becoming another nation's lobbyist. It does not permit its politicians or its political parties to accept donations from any foreigner, foreign corporations or organizations controlled by foreigners. Japan does not depend upon other nations to finance its long-term role in the world economy.

One classic example of how all this influence has helped the Japanese involves vehicle classification. Japanese manufacturers pay 25% duty on trucks imported into the U.S. and 2.5% on cars. Because vans and sport vehicles were classified as trucks, the Japanese were at a pricing disadvantage. So they reclassified them as cars. When the Customs Service voted against the reclassification, the Japanese lobbied the U.S. trade representative's office, the White House and the Department of the Treasury. Despite congressional and industry opposition, the Japanese prevailed.

Taking advantage of the independence of our regulatory bodies, these vans and sport vehicles are now classified as cars for the purpose of tariff assessments but revert to trucks once they are for sale in the U.S. This enables the Japanese to pay lower import duties and avoid the higher fuel economy standards and stricter emissions and safety standards required for cars. The cost to America? Over $500 million per year in foregone duties and Japan was neither asked nor forced to make a single trade concession of its own. "

From a 1992 article:
http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/fabricated-metal-product-manufacturing/293368-1.html

And then there was the WTO and NAFTA....

 

[tmosley]

"The Japanese would have us believe that they are adding American jobs, but for every job the transplants create, we lose two because the average transplant car produced has only 48% domestic content. The average U.S. car produced domestically has 88% domestic content. This contrasts to the 1% domestic content of an imported car....

Japan spends over $100 million a year for Washington lobbyists, super lawyers and political advisers and $300 million to expand pro-Japanese state and local political networks.

A 1986 General Accounting Office survey revealed that 76 former high federal officials had become registered foreign agents. They ranged from former bureaucrats, White House staffers and congressmen to retired generals. These ex-officials represented 166 foreign clients from 52 countries and two international entities. Almost a third of them work for Japan.Almost a third of them work for Japan; so why don't we do the same in Japan?

Simple, Japan does not tolerate top government officials becoming another nation's lobbyist. It does not permit its politicians or its political parties to accept donations from any foreigner, foreign corporations or organizations controlled by foreigners. Japan does not depend upon other nations to finance its long-term role in the world economy.

One classic example of how all this influence has helped the Japanese involves vehicle classification. Japanese manufacturers pay 25% duty on trucks imported into the U.S. and 2.5% on cars. Because vans and sport vehicles were classified as trucks, the Japanese were at a pricing disadvantage. So they reclassified them as cars. When the Customs Service voted against the reclassification, the Japanese lobbied the U.S. trade representative's office, the White House and the Department of the Treasury. Despite congressional and industry opposition, the Japanese prevailed.

Taking advantage of the independence of our regulatory bodies, these vans and sport vehicles are now classified as cars for the purpose of tariff assessments but revert to trucks once they are for sale in the U.S. This enables the Japanese to pay lower import duties and avoid the higher fuel economy standards and stricter emissions and safety standards required for cars. The cost to America? Over $500 million per year in foregone duties and Japan was neither asked nor forced to make a single trade concession of its own. "

From a 1992 article:
http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/fabricated-metal-product-manufacturing/293368-1.html

And then there was the WTO and NAFTA....

How much money does the UAW spend on lobbying, hmm? How much has the UAW cost America, hmmm?

 

[angelatc]

FOr the record you're both right.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Every: Road, Railway, Airport should have signs welcoming visitors to the District of Columbia:

Welcome to: FOR SALE

For Auction information, please visit K Street and Capital Hill

The American Sheeple of this country are fools... Americans need to spend more time researching and investigating ALL 4 branches of government.

 

[moostraks]

The high price of ‘free’ trade by By Robert E. Scott 11-17-03

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_bp147/

"Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was signed in 1993, the rise in the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico through 2002 has caused the displacement of production that supported 879,280 U.S. jobs. Most of those lost jobs were high-wage positions in manufacturing industries. The loss of these jobs is just the most visible tip of NAFTA's impact on the U.S. economy. In fact, NAFTA has also contributed to rising income inequality, suppressed real wages for production workers, weakened workers' collective bargaining powers and ability to organize unions, and reduced fringe benefits.

NAFTA is a free trade and investment agreement that provided investors with a unique set of guarantees designed to stimulate foreign direct investment and the movement of factories within the hemisphere, especially from the United States to Canada and Mexico. Furthermore, no protections were contained in the core of the agreement to maintain labor or environmental standards. As a result, NAFTA tilted the economic playing field in favor of investors, and against workers and the environment, resulting in a hemispheric "race to the bottom" in wages and environmental quality...

The impact on employment of any change in trade is determined by its effect on the trade balance, the difference between exports and imports. Ignoring imports and counting only exports is like balancing a checkbook by counting only deposits but not withdrawals. The many officials, policy analysts, and business leaders who ignore the negative effects of imports and talk only about the benefits of exports are engaging in false accounting...

Another critically important promise made by the promoters of NAFTA was that the United States would benefit because of increased exports to a large and growing consumer market in Mexico. This market, in turn, was to be based on an expansion of the middle class that, it was claimed, would grow rapidly due to the wealth created in Mexico by NAFTA. Thus, most U.S. exports were predicted to be consumer products destined for consumption in Mexico.

In fact, most U.S. exports to Mexico are parts and components that are shipped to Mexico and assembled into final products that are then returned to the United States...

NAFTA contained a number of unique provisions designed to provide special protections for investors in order to encourage foreign direct investment in chapter eleven of the agreement, which concerned investment...These types of measures were used by both Mexico and Canada to encourage development of their domestic economies, and to maximize the benefits they obtained from foreign indirect investment (FDI).

In addition, NAFTA included unprecedented guarantees to protect the value of corporate investments and even the rights to earn profits in the future arising out of changes in government regulations or policy. In particular, NAFTA created specific clauses that provide for compensation for lost investments and loss of future profits due to regulations that are "tantamount to expropriation" (NAFTA Secretariat 2003, article 1110)...

The growth in U.S. trade and trade deficits has put downward pressure on the wages of workers without a college degree, especially those who have no formal education beyond a high school degree. This group includes most middle- and low-wage workers, including the 68.5% of the total workforce with the lowest pay, those earning a wage that is equal to 200% or less of poverty level wages in 2001 (Mishel et al. 2003, p. 134). In March 2000, the base year used for data, these workers earned wages of $16.93 or less per hour (See Appendix 1). These U.S. workers bear the brunt of the costs and pressures of globalization (Mishel et al. 2003, 181-89)..."

Please take the time to read the original article as it offers much more than my exerpts that I highlighted for emphasis!

Conclusion was that the displaced workers were causing suppression of wages in all sectors as competition for jobs increases in non-manufacturing sectors, the effect was hardest on the service industry where many of these laborers would flee for income. That suppression of income in these sectors then effected the general economy. Also, that executives were using the power of closing american plants and exporting jobs to destroy bargaining capacity of labor left in country, leading to loss of wages and declining working conditions. NAFTA isn't the sole factor regarding decline but estimates range in the 15-25% range of effect upon growth wage inequality in the U.S.(And this in 2003!)

All in all, an interesting perspective from what appears to be a non-globalist view.

 

[Bossobass]

Hey, Jackass... shouting isn't necessary and only makes you (and your ignorant stance) look dumber.

If anything you've said was true, Japan, for one example, which has come from total devastation and unconditional surrender, with 1/25 the land mass, none of the resources and 1/3 the population of the US to the 2nd largest economy in the world, with the highest tariffs in the world...with the highest tariffs in the world... wouldn't exist.

Rockefeller grew to control 98% of the oil refining business, in part, by dumping his product in states where he had competition at the same time he raised the cost of shipping (which he controlled) the product and raising his prices in states where he had no competition, until he had no competition.

That led to anti-trust (sham) prosecution.

In the early 1900s, Andrew Carnegie sold Carnegie Steel to the JP Morgan (funded by Rothschilds) group which formed US Steel, the first multi-billion dollar company in the world. Lest anyone cry 'conspiracy theorist', Carnegie demanded his stake to be paid in gold bonds because (he himself said) he feared anti-trust repercussions, which indeed came 10 years later, but failed to prosecute (big surprise).

Immediately after the failed war in Vietnam, lobbyists began pushing for Most Favored Nation for China. Remember, Vietnam was touted as a war against the Domino Theory, which described the fall of one Asian country after the other to Communism if the US allowed South Vietnam to fall to Communist North Vietnam, during which war North Vietnam was almost entirely armed by Communist China.

In 1980, 5 years later, MFN was kindly bestowed upon Communist China, known as the most oppressive government in the world, and US Steel had already been 2 years into it's move out of the Ohio Valley. By 1983, in only 5 short years, nearly a complete exodus from the steel capital of the world had taken place.

Anyone who thinks the Chinese Miracle was a free market consequence needs to get into the Koolaid line immediately.

The US has negotiated agreements to have huge military presence in Germany, Japan, and South Korea in exchange for managed trade that allows those countries to impose brick wall tariffs on imports with no barriers on exports to the US market, and that requires those countries to set aside a portion of the huge profits to purchase US debt.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, the agreement allowed OPEC to grossly inflate the price of oil in exchange for agreement to purchase US debt, that the US could have huge military presence there and that all worldwide oil purchases would be dollar denominated, assuring the FRN the world reserve currency status it has enjoyed.

NOTE: The only 2 oil producing countries that refused to sign on to this managed trade scheme were Iran (revolution deposed the Shah) and Iraq. The US funded and trained Saddam's regime to wage war with Iran throughout the 80s, as well as instigated other ME interventions, from bases in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, which kept opposition to the managed trade agreement at bay (by disrupting their oil producing capacities and through Sanctions, which remain in place to today) and justified the huge increases in oil prices (from 1971 to 1979 the price of a barrel of crude rose over 2,000%).

The added agreement that those countries would use a percentage of their huge profits to purchase US debt allowed the Fed to artificially ease monetary policy and flood the US with credit to facilitate consumer purchases of these barrier-free imports, and facilitate the huge deficit spending of the federal government without runaway inflation.

This scenario was part of the classic debates between RP and Greenspan on the house floor from 1997 through 2005, compiled here:

http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan-gold.html

None of this was free trade. It is unfair (and illegal) trade.

Since the 70s, America has gone from the largest trade surplus nation to the largest trade deficit nation in the world, while being the largest consumer nation in the world.

Tariffs = Protectionism.
So-called Free Trade = Managed Trade, whereby only the managers benefit.
Tariffs + reciprocity = Fair Trade

Labor costs, regulations and income taxes are side issues. Each plays it's part in the grand scheme, but the opinion that Tariffs could be used to throw a wrench in this plan is a sound one based in fact.

When you combine Tariffs with Reciprocity, you can target criminal conspirators.

Everyone here agrees that oppressive taxation and regulation hinders domestic competition, but to be of the opinion that they are the sole determiners is evidence of a flawed and partial view.

Free Trade, as it is sold through NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, IMF, BIS and any other totally bogus, bullshit, jack off globalist mung pile is Managed Trade.

Read Ron Paul. He knows the deal, top to bottom, A to Z, front to back. He's been trying to tell boneheads like you for over 30 years. There's much more to the story, but this post is already too long. Do your own research and prove your lame position with facts.

And, stop shouting. It's as annoying as your stance.

Bosso

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

Can GM, Chrysler, and Ford SUE the states of; Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Alabama, Oklahoma,on antitrust laws forGOVERNMNET giving unfair advantages (BILLIONS in Tax breaks/Credits) to: BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc?

Once again, government intravenouses manipulations eventually destroy something down the line.

Again, who got bought, and who eventually pays?

PS: Bossobass Excellent concise post

 

[moostraks]

How much money does the UAW spend on lobbying, hmm? How much has the UAW cost America, hmmm?

See the article I posted below. Have you got an issue with UAW or what?? Do they toilet paper your house every year?

You seem to be a one note Nellie, while I am saying the problem is much more multi-faceted and it is tilted towards globalization for the benefit of tptb at the expense of national sovereignty and the individual's well-being.This will in turn screw all of us no matter where our interests may lie within the United States unless we are participants.

I wonder why you are so invested in making this a UAW issue solely??? They have been steadily losing membership and losing capacity to bargain for some time now. Yet you insist upon constantly painting every situation as their responsibilty. Management plays a role in any negotiations and they also bear the burden of the direction a company chooses to go in.

So your big response for Japanese automakers getting an unfair advantage is to blame the UAW? Your big response in Mexico's subsidizing their labors wages was suck it up?

Well now that the manufacturing sector is going the way of the dinosaurs, your solution to the widespread wage decreases and its subsequent effects on all sectors will be what??? Whose going to have the spendable income and who is going to support the ever increasing social service programs??? It seems the only thing you see as a valid response is to pollute the environment and pay lower wages, not to mention tax breaks-for whom?-. Then all those effected can pay lawyers to sue corporations with deep pockets for lung disease, but its all good because the masses can enjoy a tax break on what? Their unemployment checks and welfare payments? Brilliant!

 

[Danke]

^^^^

Nice post Bossobass!

 

[Henry]

Don't believe it!!

It's not Chinese made, it's GM designed, using cheap labor, subsidized by the US taxpayer!! The real laughable part () is the government will own around 50% or more of GM!!!!


Keep 'em happy maybe they will buy more worthless paper for a little while longer.

 

[tmosley]

Hey, Jackass... shouting isn't necessary and only makes you (and your ignorant stance) look dumber.

Well, you people keep raising strawmen, and continue to fail to understand a VERY BASIC DISTINCTION between free markets and free trade. There are two things that allow an economy to prosper, and those are A LACK OF GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND NO INCOME TAXES. Tariffs don't enter into that equation. People around here seem to think that trade wars are a good thing when we have no industrial capability, and government regulations to onerous for it to rebuild, and a punitive income tax that punishes people for trying.

[qoute]If anything you've said was true, Japan, for one example, which has come from total devastation and unconditional surrender, with 1/25 the land mass, none of the resources and 1/3 the population of the US to the 2nd largest economy in the world, with the highest tariffs in the world...with the highest tariffs in the world... wouldn't exist.[/quote]

Once again, I must shout, because you fail to see the distinction. Japan prospered due to A LACK OF GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND NO INCOME TAXES. They began instituting regulations and income taxes in the late 60's, blew a bubble through the 70's, which burst in the 80's, and now they have been stagnant for 20 years. Not the best example of a successful tariff regime.

Rockefeller grew to control 98% of the oil refining business, in part, by dumping his product in states where he had competition at the same time he raised the cost of shipping (which he controlled) the product and raising his prices in states where he had no competition, until he had no competition.

And what prevented new companies from springing up to topple him while he was weak from doing all that? That's right, GOVERNMENT REGULATION.

That led to anti-trust (sham) prosecution.

In the early 1900s, Andrew Carnegie sold Carnegie Steel to the JP Morgan (funded by Rothschilds) group which formed US Steel, the first multi-billion dollar company in the world. Lest anyone cry 'conspiracy theorist', Carnegie demanded his stake to be paid in gold bonds because (he himself said) he feared anti-trust repercussions, which indeed came 10 years later, but failed to prosecute (big surprise).

GOVERNMENT REGULATION.

Immediately after the failed war in Vietnam, lobbyists began pushing for Most Favored Nation for China. Remember, Vietnam was touted as a war against the Domino Theory, which described the fall of one Asian country after the other to Communism if the US allowed South Vietnam to fall to Communist North Vietnam, during which war North Vietnam was almost entirely armed by Communist China.

In 1980, 5 years later, MFN was kindly bestowed upon Communist China, known as the most oppressive government in the world, and US Steel had already been 2 years into it's move out of the Ohio Valley. By 1983, in only 5 short years, nearly a complete exodus from the steel capital of the world had taken place.

GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES.

Anyone who thinks the Chinese Miracle was a free market consequence needs to get into the Koolaid line immediately.

Right, because free markets don't work. I've fallen through a dimensional vortex and landed in Obamaland.

The US has negotiated agreements to have huge military presence in Germany, Japan, and South Korea in exchange for managed trade that allows those countries to impose brick wall tariffs on imports with no barriers on exports to the US market, and that requires those countries to set aside a portion of the huge profits to purchase US debt.

Funny, I thought they were set up to stop the Communists from rolling in, and were maintained to keep the American empire and the military industrial complex rolling. What you are saying is that we set up bases in order to get them to give us their stuff in exchange for monopoly money. I don't think that one lead to the other, but both are in fact what happened. We would have collapsed long ago had they not done that, not that that would have been a bad thing, as we still had an industrial sector at the time, and could have rebounded. But we don't now, due 100% to GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, the agreement allowed OPEC to grossly inflate the price of oil in exchange for agreement to purchase US debt, that the US could have huge military presence there and that all worldwide oil purchases would be dollar denominated, assuring the FRN the world reserve currency status it has enjoyed.

If that were the case, then why haven't any of the non-OPEC members that are our enemies (Russia, Venezuela, etc) dumped oil on our heads? Oh, because there wasn't enough supply? You mean that there is a concept known as supply and demand, and that governments can't just dictate prices however they want without causing market fluctuations (ie shortages and the emergence of black markets). There is no black market for oil, nor are their shortages, therefore, there is no manipulation in price. At most, there is a manipulation of supply, which is generally either against the suppliers own best interests, or they would have done it anyways, to maximize their profits.

Yes, we do keep a military presence in Saudi Arabia in exchange for having them denominate their oil sales in USD, but that isn't really manipulation of price. It is part of what allows us to trade with tariffed countries (because those nations still need oil, and when they pay for oil, the dollars come back onto the market, and are spent on American goods, which is why tariffs don't hurt the US unless we are the ones imposing them.

NOTE: The only 2 oil producing countries that refused to sign on to this managed trade scheme were Iran (revolution deposed the Shah) and Iraq. The US funded and trained Saddam's regime to wage war with Iran throughout the 80s, as well as instigated other ME interventions, from bases in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, which kept opposition to the managed trade agreement at bay (by disrupting their oil producing capacities and through Sanctions, which remain in place to today) and justified the huge increases in oil prices (from 1971 to 1979 the price of a barrel of crude rose over 2,000%).

I highly doubt it. Did Russia sign on to that? Venezuela? Indonesia? If they did, I can guarantee you, they would be cheating, either driving the prices back down to market levels, or creating a black market. Since I can't buy gas at my local flea market, I would have to assume the former is the case (and THAT is assuming you aren't pulling all of that out of your ass, but that is irrelevant to this conversation).

The added agreement that those countries would use a percentage of their huge profits to purchase US debt allowed the Fed to artificially ease monetary policy and flood the US with credit to facilitate consumer purchases of these barrier-free imports, and facilitate the huge deficit spending of the federal government without runaway inflation.

What exactly would those other countries have to gain from such a scheme? Not much in my estimation. They get worthless dollars and a ticking time bomb placed under their mattress, and we get cheap/free stuff.

This scenario was part of the classic debates between RP and Greenspan on the house floor from 1997 through 2005, compiled here:

http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan-gold.html

None of this was free trade. It is unfair (and illegal) trade.

Ok, so that makes free trade bad somehow? I really must be in Bizarro world.

Since the 70s, America has gone from the largest trade surplus nation to the largest trade deficit nation in the world, while being the largest consumer nation in the world.

Tariffs = Protectionism.
So-called Free Trade = Managed Trade, whereby only the managers benefit.
Tariffs + reciprocity = Fair Trade

Your definition for "So-called Free Trade" is almost exactly how I described what would happen in a one sided tariff situation. You just missed one part, the American people have benefited because we have gotten extremely cheap consumer goods out of the deal, despite the fact that we have no manufacturing base. Understand that the second those other nations opened up free trade, it would collapse the economy of the United States (hyperinflation), as the citizens start using their dollars to buy up US goods. Since US goods don't exist, due to a lack of manufacturing, they instead buy up assets and commodities, bidding up prices into the stratosphere. If we had a free market in this nation, we would absorb that supply of dollars with increased production instead, but we have GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS AND INCOME TAXES that stop that from happening.

Labor costs, regulations and income taxes are side issues. Each plays it's part in the grand scheme, but the opinion that Tariffs could be used to throw a wrench in this plan is a sound one based in fact.

They WOULD be side issues, except that they are so high that you can't form new manufacturing companies without corrupt Wall Street Banker money. WE are the ones who destroyed our own manufacturing sector, NOT foreigners. THEY have just taken advantage of the lack of competition here, and filled the niche that SHOULD have been filled by startups, ie that of innovation and growth.

When you combine Tariffs with Reciprocity, you can target criminal conspirators.

Or you can just dump the trade barriers and let things work themselves out. But you can't do that, because you apparently LOVE big government and lots of intervention.

Everyone here agrees that oppressive taxation and regulation hinders domestic competition, but to be of the opinion that they are the sole determiners is evidence of a flawed and partial view.

Free markets can only exist where there is no taxation or regulation. The decline of our domestic economy is directly correlated with the institution and raising of income taxes, and the imposition of regulations on industry. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that free trade did ANYTHING but help the economy. Our manufacturing sector was in decline long before free trade became a public policy, and decades before it became a reality.

Free Trade, as it is sold through NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, IMF, BIS and any other totally bogus, bullshit, jack off globalist mung pile is Managed Trade.

Yes, it has supported a corrupt economy. If we had free markets, it would be supporting a free and open economy. The influence is the same either way.

Read Ron Paul. He knows the deal, top to bottom, A to Z, front to back. He's been trying to tell boneheads like you for over 30 years. There's much more to the story, but this post is already too long. Do your own research and prove your lame position with facts.

Ron Paul believes in free markets and non-entangling alliances, as do I. If he's against free trade (he isn't), it's only because, as you said, it's managed trade, and increases the size of government.

And, stop shouting. It's as annoying as your stance.

Bosso

I'll stop shouting when people in this thread stop attributing the successes of the free market to protectionism.

 

[tmosley]

See the article I posted below. Have you got an issue with UAW or what?? Do they toilet paper your house every year?

Because you are a union shill posting in favor of protectionism, even while you fat, lazy ass takes money from bailout and rolls about in shares of stock from a stolen company, which you know won't be allowed to fail because you've feathered the nests of hundreds of politicians with your extorted "dues" payments.

You seem to be a one note Nellie, while I am saying the problem is much more multi-faceted and it is tilted towards globalization for the benefit of tptb at the expense of national sovereignty and the individual's well-being.This will in turn screw all of us no matter where our interests may lie within the United States unless we are participants.

I'm trying to drill a point into people's heads, but I'm in Bizarro world, where neither reason nor logic work, and the only solution is bigger government!

I wonder why you are so invested in making this a UAW issue solely??? They have been steadily losing membership and losing capacity to bargain for some time now. Yet you insist upon constantly painting every situation as their responsibilty. Management plays a role in any negotiations and they also bear the burden of the direction a company chooses to go in.

Yeah, I'm sure management would pay people to sit on their ass and do nothing instead of firing them (job banks). You are only losing capacity to bargain because you, like a 500 foot long tape-worm, have sucked your host almost to the point of death, and now you are terrified he might die, and take you with him. With no new jobs available due to GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES, you realize that you will starve in the streets of the desiccated corpse of American manufacturing.

So your big response for Japanese automakers getting an unfair advantage is to blame the UAW? Your big response in Mexico's subsidizing their labors wages was suck it up?

No, it was to point out that you do the same thing you were vilifying the Japanese were doing, only you do it 20 times more. You worthless hypocrite.

Well now that the manufacturing sector is going the way of the dinosaurs, your solution to the widespread wage decreases and its subsequent effects on all sectors will be what???

Fuck your wages. You don't deserve them. You had to extort a manufacturing giant for decades to get them, and now you've killed it. You also blocked any new competition from taking root by institution onerous regulations to block competition from non-union shops. You have made your bed of corruption and filth, now you'll have to sleep in it.

Whose going to have the spendable income and who is going to support the ever increasing social service programs???

Those who live in free market societies will have it. You'll be working for them for a tenth of the spending power you receive today IF they don't find the regulatory environment here too disruptive to business. You won't buy the things you make. The social service programs will die, as they should. Pray they take this unsustainable government with it, so we can start over and reindustrialize.

It seems the only thing you see as a valid response is to pollute the environment and pay lower wages, not to mention tax breaks-for whom?

Pollution is only one of the regulations that needs to be overturned. Yes, you will be paid lower wages. that is part of your punishment for throwing your lot in with a corrupt system. Your cries will be heard by NOONE.

ALL taxes should be abolished. You should like that, as that would give your workers an immediate and substantial pay raise, since you whine about your above market wages all the time, and FORCE your employers to pay you the higher rates by blocking access to the factories during strikes. The squeaky wheel gets the oil after all, right?

Then all those effected can pay lawyers to sue corporations with deep pockets for lung disease, but its all good because the masses can enjoy a tax break on what? Their unemployment checks and welfare payments? Brilliant!

No, that's the best part, the government has collapsed, and there won't be any incentives to be unproductive. You'll have to rely on alms and charity if you want to sit on your ass. And you'll live as you really are, a filthy beggar who doesn't contribute one whit to society. A vile junkie sucking the dick of any politician you can find that will throw you the scraps of some looted company or the other for you to run into the ground.

You've cast your lot in with the unions, and you and your family will go down into despair because of it. I would suggest you find an honest way to earn a living before you are murdered by roving bands of starving unionists for a few scraps of bread. But then, I guess you would be PART of the roving band of murderers and thieves, since that's what you guys do now, you'll just be reduced to your true nature after your benefactors have fled to the East.

 

[tmosley]

It's not Chinese made, it's GM designed, using cheap labor, subsidized by the US taxpayer!! The real laughable part () is the government will own around 50% or more of GM!!!!


Keep 'em happy maybe they will buy more worthless paper for a little while longer.

The government will own 19%, Fiat will own 30%, the UAW will own 50%, and the former shareholders will own 1%.

Nice isn't it?

 

[Henry]

The government will own 19%, Fiat will own 30%, the UAW will own 50%, and the former shareholders will own 1%.

Nice isn't it?

Were talking GM not Chrysler (Fiat?). Government will wind up with at least 50%!!!

 

[moostraks]

From JAMA "Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, Inc. (JAMA) is a nonprofit trade association that was established in April, 1967."

"The globalization of the automobile industry continues, and the expansion of international alliances is flourishing. With the cost of developing new vehicles spiraling upward, cross-border affiliations are becoming increasingly prevalent. The Japanese automobile industry has forged a wide variety of tie-ups with overseas manufacturers, ranging from technical and marketing cooperation and components supply to full-scale joint vehicle development and production"

http://www.jama.org/about/industry14.htm

Translation they are cooperating in the globalization of corporate operations for the greater good.(See corporate good) Where do you think they are going for parts?

"Mexico's economic liberalization has resulted in unprecedented growth of the Mexican auto and auto-part industry, turning it into a world-class player Its success can be measured both in terms of increased exports and investment, which has contributed to the modernization of the sector.

According to the WTO Annual Report for 2000, Mexico ranked sixth among the leading exporters of auto and auto-parts in the world from tenth in 1990, and third among foreign suppliers for the U.S., Canadian and Japanese automotive industries. In 2001, Mexican total exports surpassed US$ 33 billion dollars in automotive products more than six fold the figure reached in 1990...

Foreign investment flows received by Mexico have contributed to the transfer of new technologies and the modernization of the automotive industry. This explains, in part, the increasing gains of 40% in the productivity levels showed since 1994. The auto industry's remarkable performance has promoted the creation of new and better paying jobs in Mexico, which have led better living standards required for the population.

The auto and auto-part industry has played a vital role in Mexico's economy, with its 19% share in total exports, 24% of country's manufacturing GDP, and employing more than 1.9 million people. "

From http://www.maquilaportal.com/editorial/editorial228.htm

From:http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/29/report-largest-american-axle-plant-to-shutter-as-work-shifts-to/

"Founded in 1994, American Axle will start moving the facility's production to Guanajuato, Mexico over the summer. More than 500 of the 700 workers at the Detroit complex will be laid off indefinitely, and only 232 of the company's most senior workers will likely have jobs remaining when the dust settles later this year"

Why? They blame bad labor and the economy. So let's see labor's side:

http://www.labornotes.org/node/1586

"Picketers talk about the need to draw a line in the sand against spiraling concessions on wages, health care benefits, and pensions.

American Axle stands out in the U.S. auto industry because it has stayed profitable since spinning off from General Motors. Staying in the black hasn’t stopped the company’s CEO, Dick Dauch—who himself averaged $14.5 million in annual compensation between 2003 and 2006—from demanding two-tier wage concessions.

In 2004, American Axle workers were told by the company and the UAW International that they had to accept two-tier wages. Although the AAM contract was voted down in the Detroit flagship plant, it passed nationally over job security fears.

In 2007, two-tier wages were expanded to the Big 3. Now AAM wants the same wage scale found at those companies, a scale that nearly halves starting wages from $27 to $14 an hour.

Strikers, for their part, are demanding wage parity with Ford and Chrysler axle workers, where the union never conceded on two tier. Shifting Gears, a rank-and-file newsletter distributed at all American Axle plants, has consistently hammered over the last year on the need for wage parity in its pages...

Plant closings are also a major issue in the strike. After the union refused to open up the contract in 2006 to grant concessions, the company idled Buffalo Gear and Axle plant despite “no plant closing” contract language. The work was moved to American Axle operations in Mexico.

The corporation may be using its profitability to maneuver away from union shops. Last September, American Axle opened a non-union forging operation in Oxford, Michigan, and declared that it wanted to close two forges covered by the contract.

There are now only 3,600 workers left in plants covered by the national pattern agreement, and the company wants to eliminate 1,000 more.

The strike is technically not over plant closings or wages, though. The UAW has filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board that the company has withheld information during negotiations. The annual cost of the prescription drug plan and vision plan, and the company’s calculations on the per-hour cost of retiree health care and pension plans, were among the points of information the company withheld.

UNION PROMISED CUTS
After the strike began, documents surfaced from negotiations showing that prior to the strike, the UAW International had been willing to cut both skilled trades and production workers’ wages by up to $5 an hour.

American Axle said it has offered the union at the table retirement incentives, buy-outs, and lump sum payments in exchange for permanently lower wages. (Many in the workforce have put in almost 15 years and would be foregoing secure pension and health care benefits if they accepted lump sum payments.)

At an informational meeting at Local 235, members told international reps that they would not pass a contract that contained deep cuts. Several locals have passed motions to see the actual contract language at least a week before the vote and to have observers at the ballot boxes and during the vote count."

I suppose now you are going to scream again??? As I stated the globalists are working to bring highest profits to a minority at large costs to the majority.

 

[moostraks]

Because you are a union shill posting in favor of protectionism, even while you fat, lazy ass takes money from bailout and rolls about in shares of stock from a stolen company, which you know won't be allowed to fail because you've feathered the nests of hundreds of politicians with your extorted "dues" payments.



I'm trying to drill a point into people's heads, but I'm in Bizarro world, where neither reason nor logic work, and the only solution is bigger government!



Yeah, I'm sure management would pay people to sit on their ass and do nothing instead of firing them (job banks). You are only losing capacity to bargain because you, like a 500 foot long tape-worm, have sucked your host almost to the point of death, and now you are terrified he might die, and take you with him. With no new jobs available due to GOVERNMENT REGULATION AND INCOME TAXES, you realize that you will starve in the streets of the desiccated corpse of American manufacturing.



No, it was to point out that you do the same thing you were vilifying the Japanese were doing, only you do it 20 times more. You worthless hypocrite.



Fuck your wages. You don't deserve them. You had to extort a manufacturing giant for decades to get them, and now you've killed it. You also blocked any new competition from taking root by institution onerous regulations to block competition from non-union shops. You have made your bed of corruption and filth, now you'll have to sleep in it.



Those who live in free market societies will have it. You'll be working for them for a tenth of the spending power you receive today IF they don't find the regulatory environment here too disruptive to business. You won't buy the things you make. The social service programs will die, as they should. Pray they take this unsustainable government with it, so we can start over and reindustrialize.



Pollution is only one of the regulations that needs to be overturned. Yes, you will be paid lower wages. that is part of your punishment for throwing your lot in with a corrupt system. Your cries will be heard by NOONE.

ALL taxes should be abolished. You should like that, as that would give your workers an immediate and substantial pay raise, since you whine about your above market wages all the time, and FORCE your employers to pay you the higher rates by blocking access to the factories during strikes. The squeaky wheel gets the oil after all, right?



No, that's the best part, the government has collapsed, and there won't be any incentives to be unproductive. You'll have to rely on alms and charity if you want to sit on your ass. And you'll live as you really are, a filthy beggar who doesn't contribute one whit to society. A vile junkie sucking the dick of any politician you can find that will throw you the scraps of some looted company or the other for you to run into the ground.

You've cast your lot in with the unions, and you and your family will go down into despair because of it. I would suggest you find an honest way to earn a living before you are murdered by roving bands of starving unionists for a few scraps of bread. But then, I guess you would be PART of the roving band of murderers and thieves, since that's what you guys do now, you'll just be reduced to your true nature after your benefactors have fled to the East.

You can't seem to read...I am not UAW. I am a sahm to 7 children and my spouse is a printer. We were briefly industry related to GM and are aware of some matters from a local standpoint and brief stint in shipping by a non-UAW business.

This entire post from my brief scan reads as more vile, derogatory misdirection of the posted subject matter. When you can learn to have an adult conversation then this will be more productive. You seem to have some need to abuse people by speaking down to them and screaming in large bold type.

You are not well read on the subject and you fail to account for many contributing factors and constantly are misportraying my stance as a union shill. I could care less about the uaw specifically, but am concerned that we chop off our nose to spite our face when we are losing so much ground against a global agenda. The individual is being eaten alive currently and we might want to examine all tools available before systematically thinking that I think therefor I am will achieve national sovereignty and freedom. Same thing goes for your scrap regulations and tariffs mentality. We all want Utopia, but reality gets more done.

TAke a chill pill and come back when you have a valid argument rather than more demonizing non-sense drivel which is off topic and irrelevant because you refuse to acknowledge my livelihood isn't invested in the union.

 

[moostraks]

Were talking GM not Chrysler (Fiat?). Government will wind up with at least 50%!!!

Figured I'd help you since someone seems to think we pull things out our arse:
"As a majority owner in General Motors Corp., the U.S. government could make it difficult to compete with other automakers and could influence business strategy in a way that harms the stock price, the automaker said in a recent regulatory filing.
GM, which is staying afloat with $15.4 billion in federal loans, proposes to restructure its debt through a complicated deal that would end up giving the U.S. government at least half of the reconstituted company."

http://www.freep.com/article/200905.../GM+fears+U.S.+control+could+hurt+in+long+run

 

[tmosley]

You can't seem to read...I am not UAW. I am a sahm to 7 children and my spouse is a printer. We were briefly industry related to GM and are aware of some matters from a local standpoint and brief stint in shipping by a non-UAW business.

This entire post from my brief scan reads as more vile, derogatory misdirection of the posted subject matter. When you can learn to have an adult conversation then this will be more productive. You seem to have some need to abuse people by speaking down to them and screaming in large bold type.

You are not well read on the subject and you fail to account for many contributing factors and constantly are misportraying my stance as a union shill. I could care less about the uaw specifically, but am concerned that we chop off our nose to spite our face when we are losing so much ground against a global agenda. The individual is being eaten alive currently and we might want to examine all tools available before systematically thinking that I think therefor I am will achieve national sovereignty and freedom. Same thing goes for your scrap regulations and tariffs mentality. We all want Utopia, but reality gets more done.

TAke a chill pill and come back when you have a valid argument rather than more demonizing non-sense drivel which is off topic and irrelevant because you refuse to acknowledge my livelihood isn't invested in the union.

In previous posts, you defended them with such vitriol that I suppose I assumed you were a member, and a rather vehement one at that. It is good that you aren't, because that organization is equally as corrupt and parasitic as the bankers and the fascists who rule this country. Your defense of them is odd. You sound as though you are some sort of a lobbyist.

From JAMA "Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, Inc. (JAMA) is a nonprofit trade association that was established in April, 1967."

"The globalization of the automobile industry continues, and the expansion of international alliances is flourishing. With the cost of developing new vehicles spiraling upward, cross-border affiliations are becoming increasingly prevalent. The Japanese automobile industry has forged a wide variety of tie-ups with overseas manufacturers, ranging from technical and marketing cooperation and components supply to full-scale joint vehicle development and production"

In other words, GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS have forces large automakers to work together to survive, even as far back as the 60's.

Translation they are cooperating in the globalization of cooperate operations for the greater good.(See corporate good) Where do you think they are going for parts?

Someplace that isn't infected with human parasites?

"Mexico's economic liberalization has resulted in unprecedented growth of the Mexican auto and auto-part industry, turning it into a world-class player Its success can be measured both in terms of increased exports and investment, which has contributed to the modernization of the sector.

According to the WTO Annual Report for 2000, Mexico ranked sixth among the leading exporters of auto and auto-parts in the world from tenth in 1990, and third among foreign suppliers for the U.S., Canadian and Japanese automotive industries. In 2001, Mexican total exports surpassed US$ 33 billion dollars in automotive products more than six fold the figure reached in 1990...

Foreign investment flows received by Mexico have contributed to the transfer of new technologies and the modernization of the automotive industry. This explains, in part, the increasing gains of 40% in the productivity levels showed since 1994. The auto industry's remarkable performance has promoted the creation of new and better paying jobs in Mexico, which have led better living standards required for the population.

The auto and auto-part industry has played a vital role in Mexico's economy, with its 19% share in total exports, 24% of country's manufacturing GDP, and employing more than 1.9 million people. "

Wow, and industrializing economy gets good at making stuff! There must be a CONSPIRACY AFOOT!

"Founded in 1994, American Axle will start moving the facility's production to Guanajuato, Mexico over the summer. More than 500 of the 700 workers at the Detroit complex will be laid off indefinitely, and only 232 of the company's most senior workers will likely have jobs remaining when the dust settles later this year"

Those poor, poor leeches!

"Picketers talk about the need to draw a line in the sand against spiraling concessions on wages, health care benefits, and pensions.

American Axle stands out in the U.S. auto industry because it has stayed profitable since spinning off from General Motors. Staying in the black hasn’t stopped the company’s CEO, Dick Dauch—who himself averaged $14.5 million in annual compensation between 2003 and 2006—from demanding two-tier wage concessions.

How DARE those people who use their minds to produce mechanical wonders get paid more than us! He doesn't even pay dues! And he's never once committed violence against scabs!

In 2007, two-tier wages were expanded to the Big 3. Now AAM wants the same wage scale found at those companies, a scale that nearly halves starting wages from $27 to $14 an hour.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA! A starting blue collar worker made more money than money than me, a senior scientist--with a degree! Cry me a river. $14/hour is PLENTY for a high school graduate operating machinery.

Strikers, for their part, are demanding wage parity with Ford and Chrysler axle workers, where the union never conceded on two tier. Shifting Gears, a rank-and-file newsletter distributed at all American Axle plants, has consistently hammered over the last year on the need for wage parity in its pages...

Plant closings are also a major issue in the strike. After the union refused to open up the contract in 2006 to grant concessions, the company idled Buffalo Gear and Axle plant despite “no plant closing” contract language. The work was moved to American Axle operations in Mexico.

Could it be because of...INCOME TAXES AND REGULATIONS?

The corporation may be using its profitability to maneuver away from union shops. Last September, American Axle opened a non-union forging operation in Oxford, Michigan, and declared that it wanted to close two forges covered by the contract.

How dare they use money they accumulated despite our best efforts to escape our grasp! Don't they know that they are our slaves?

There are now only 3,600 workers left in plants covered by the national pattern agreement, and the company wants to eliminate 1,000 more.

I'd fire all of them. And that's a fact. I'd hire them back at a third of their current wages without their union affiliation. If they wanted raises, they can prove that they deserve them through leadership and productivity.

The strike is technically not over plant closings or wages, though. The UAW has filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board that the company has withheld information during negotiations. The annual cost of the prescription drug plan and vision plan, and the company’s calculations on the per-hour cost of retiree health care and pension plans, were among the points of information the company withheld.

What's that? Regulations forcing businesses out of the country? UNHEARD OF!

UNION PROMISED CUTS
After the strike began, documents surfaced from negotiations showing that prior to the strike, the UAW International had been willing to cut both skilled trades and production workers’ wages by up to $5 an hour.

Ohh, big deal. The entry level workers with high school degrees are now making slightly less than I am, and somewhat less than the national average for ALL workers.

American Axle said it has offered the union at the table retirement incentives, buy-outs, and lump sum payments in exchange for permanently lower wages. (Many in the workforce have put in almost 15 years and would be foregoing secure pension and health care benefits if they accepted lump sum payments.)

HAHAHAHAHA! They think their pensions are secure? What a bunch of maroons.

Not so funny is the fact that these thugs have to be bought off to cut their wages down to somewhat closer to market rates. I wonder how much money all of their inflated wages and benefits add to the cost of their vehicles? Probably at least 30%.

At an informational meeting at Local 235, members told international reps that they would not pass a contract that contained deep cuts. Several locals have passed motions to see the actual contract language at least a week before the vote and to have observers at the ballot boxes and during the vote count."

In other news, wolves vote not to decrease their pork allotments, despite vigorous protest and a 100% showing by pigs in the polls.

In yet more news, 99% voted the way that the observers told them to. In an unrelated story, 1% of union workers were dredged from local lakes today, apparently having chosen to go swimming with concrete shoes. Corrupt local officials suspect no foul play.

I suppose now you are going to scream again??? As I stated the globalists are working to bring highest profits to a minority at large costs to the majority.

Well, then let us bring them back, chain them to their desks, force them to double Union salaries while cutting product prices 30%. THEN let them produce for us!

You're scum. If you want to stop being scum, read Atlas Shrugged. It will make you a moral person, or it will make your head explode from cognitive dissonance. Either way, it's a win for society.