GM to import Chinese cars; trickle in 2011 will turn to flood in 2014

If you value liberty, you deplore global trade policy that is fast turning China's govt into the most powerful player on the planet- a very dangerous direction.

Imagine that, a nation that embraces free markets becoming the most powerful on the nation. UNHEARD OF.

Formerly powerful and free nations declining into two-bit powers with centuries of unfunded mandates and a crushing tax burden? Surely such a thing has never happened before!
 
There is a natural barrier that the Chinese have to overcome to ship their cars here--the Pacific Ocean. Shipping costs are a bitch, landing somewhere around $1500 per vehicle (that's an absolute guess, but it seems like a reasonable figure), depending on size. Thus, that is $1500 dollars that US companies could spend to produce a vehicle, on top of whatever the Chinese spend. That is enough for quite a few salaries and profit, while STILL undercutting the foreigners, IF we had good factories. We don't.

The measures you describe that are possible for the US to take are not those of capitalism. Yes, you drop minimum wages, but it won't just be illegals coming to work. Getting rid of minimum wages will also drop prices of goods and services everywhere, meaning that you can now live on those lower wages. Yes, you should also drop environmental regulations, while at the same time allowing aggrieved parties to file suit for any damages that pollution causes them. You can't make unions illegal, nor should you, as they are protected by the Constitution (right of peaceable assembly, speech, etc), but they should remove the laws that FORCE PEOPLE TO JOIN. A union shouldn't receive special privileges any more than any person. As for "taking the worker's rights", I'm not sure what you mean by that. Workers in both the US and China have the same rights, that is, at will employment. Anyone can quit or be fired at any time.

I would suggest you do some serious lurking, or start asking some good questions, because your knowledge of economics and your understanding of the relative economic systems of the US and China (and presumably all other economies) is severely lacking.
"Shipping costs are a bitch" that explains why Japanese autos never made any cars in Japan and no it does not cost 1500 dollars to ship it :rolleyes:. FYI Toyota has higher profit margin on its camry's built in Japan than here. I do not think you know much about cars or economy for that matter :p and are trying to sugar coat the fact that some how magically you can make up for china's far lower labor costs.
 
"Shipping costs are a bitch" that explains why Japanese autos never made any cars in Japan and no it does not cost 1500 dollars to ship it :rolleyes:. FYI Toyota has higher profit margin on its camry's built in Japan than here. I do not think you know much about cars or economy for that matter :p and are trying to sugar coat the fact that some how magically you can make up for china's far lower labor costs.

Yes, it was because the manufacturing costs were so high in the US that we "couldn't" compete. Remember also that Japan pays A LOT more than China for labor, and almost as much or more than they pay here. That just shows how terribly inefficient we are.

Also, Jeez, you seriously need to lurk more. Your protectionist claptrap won't get you anywhere here.
 
....after the no-complete clause they had to sign as a condition of employment expires, perhaps.

If you value liberty, you recognize worker's rights to bargain collectively if they so choose.

If you value liberty, you deplore global trade policy that is fast turning China's govt into the most powerful player on the planet- a very dangerous direction.

Yes, because the vast majority of the American labor pool is under a non-compete clause :rolleyes: If they signed a non-compete, then they will have to move or find something else to do.

If you value liberty, you recognize the rights of the individual to bargain for his own sake.

If you value liberty, you won't allow a collective group's usage of force to achieve their goals.

If you value liberty, you won't allow government to interfere with private contracts.

If you value liberty, you recognize that the government has caused the entire mess that we are in now with China.

Remember, these are just symptoms of a poor foreign, domestic & monetary policies. This is the world's bubble popping before our eyes and we are ignoring the fact that WE'VE caused it.

The largest bubble to pop in this economic downturn is the middle class bubble. We've all heard the beating drums about the "shrinking middle class". I have news for everyone. The middle class was a bubble and should have never grown as large as it did.

The middle class today has 10 times more than the middle class of 25 years ago. Two or three houses, a couple of new cars, new fancy brand name clothes, computers, cell phones, boats, RV's, trips around the world, mortgaged to the hilt, credit cards maxed, working their asses off to keep up with the "Jones'". It's all coming back to reality and it's not going to be pretty.

Do we need more government? No. Do we need bigger & better Unions? No. They've had their chance and they've messed it up horribly for the rest of us. It's time to give us the freedom to be left alone.

Do we need a stable monetary system that rewards savings? Yes! Do we need less government interference in the marketplace? Yes! Do we need the freedom to do what we want? Yes!
 
China doesn't embrace free anything.

China is more free market than the US hands down. Anyone can open up a shop and start a business without government interference. They don't need licenses, nor are they regulated for the things they produce.

China has brought almost an entire nation of 1.3 Billion people from utter poverty 30 years ago, to having the largest and growing middles classes in the world. I believe their middle class is around 300 Million people. That's the entire population of the US. Just because they have a Communist form of government, it ends with the government. The market is quite free comparatively speaking.
 
Have you been to China? Or Japan? Or Korea?

These countries DO NOT believe in free markets in any shape or form. They are mercantilist nations through and through and they practice economic warfare on their trade rivals. The very visible and heavy hand of the state directs all economic decisions. These countries have huge corporations, like Toyota, Sony, Hyundai, Samsung, COSCO Shipping and Petro China that are all in bed with their governments more so than any American corporation.

Did you know that Hyundai makes refrigerators and laptop computers and a million other consumer products? They make everything for the Korean market because they keep the Japanese and the Chinese out of Korea.

Try buying a Japanese car in Korea. It's nearly impossible and ridiculously expensive because of trade barriers. Japan is about a 40 minute boat ride from Korea but Sony, Toyota and Honda ship virtually nothing there because they are not allowed to.

How is it that a car manufactured in Korea and shipped here is cheaper to purchase in LA than in Seoul? Does that make any economic sense? Koreans fly to LA and purchase Korean cars manufactured in Korea. Then they ship them home because it's cheaper than buying a Korean-made car in their own country!

American citizens are not allowed to buy land in Korea or own businesses. Even if you surrender your American citizenship and take Korean citizenship (which like three Americans have done in the last 500 years), you are still not allowed to run for public office. You will never be considered a Korean and will always be a foreigner because you do not have Korean blood running through your veins.

And in Japan, third generation Koreans who are the descendants of slave laborers brought to Japan during the imperial period are not even granted citizenship to this day, even though they can't speak a word of Korean.

And the Chinese are more nationalistic than the Koreans and the Japanese. The Chinese believe the world has been turned upside down and history has been perverted because their former vassal states are now richer than they are. The Chinese are on a single-minded mission to correct this historical anomaly and return to their natural place as the Middle Kingdom in command of Asia.

China is buying companies in the United States in order to dismantle them, fire our workers and transfer the technology back to China. It's happening here in California right before our eyes. But any America who points out the obvious is some kind of heretic.

We are in a trade war and we are losing badly. We are losing all that has been built in over 200 years of our economic development -- built by patriots who believed in liberty and the pursuit of happiness and felt that Americans as a people had common economic interests.

All the Asian countries see themselves as distinct peoples with common economic interests -- not as global citizens on Tom Friedman's flat earth. The Asian countries all use import barriers, currency devaluation, intellectual theft, subsidies and shameless bribery in order to gain economic advantage and capture markets for their exports. They are playing a zero sum game in the United States while protecting their own home markets. That is how they built their economies. We have surrendered industry after industry to them. Now we are surrendering our greatest industry of all -- our automobile industry -- and every country in the world is looking on in amazement and disbelief and licking their chops to devour their piece of the quickly disappearing American pie. All these countries are fighting their economic battles not on their home turf, but on ours -- with the American worker and middle class being the biggest loser of all.

And OUR LEADERS DO NOT CARE. Our leaders are globalists who have sold us out economically for geo-political reasons. They want American troops in Asia and in Germany and have made a bargain to keep them there -- our jobs and living standards for American military bases on their land.

If you believe the Chinese believe in free trade and practice it, well, I don't know what to say. Maybe you believe prison labor is economic liberty, and prison sentences for bloggers is all well and good, and government censoring of the Internet is freedom, and charging the families of prisoners for the bullet used to execute them is fiscal responsibility.

Visit China. Visit Japan. Visit Korea. The people there are educated and many speak English and most are better versed in economics than the average American. They are all about economics because they know what it is to be hungry and poor and to have millions upon millions of people competing against them for a crappy subsistence wage job and a few grains of rice. They are not from an open land of abundance, but are from a crowded, polluted and poor part of the world lacking in everything from iron ore to farmland to clean drinking water. Talk to them, and you will soon learn that their version of economics is actually economic warfare based on nationalism and the defeat of ancient rivals. Kowtowing and hierarchies are how business is done. Family relationships trump efficiency and fairness every time. Nepotism and crony capitalism are the way their world works.

If we want to preserve our liberty, independence, economic freedom and prosperity, the first place a patriot would start would be with a massive tariff wall. This is what Thomas Jefferson did. He put up a tariff wall and eliminated domestic taxes. The economy boomed and the American standard of living became the highest the world had ever seen. People had so much money that they bought more imported goods than ever before, and the government had plenty of revenue -- paid for by foreigners who willingly paid tariffs for the privilege of making a profit here.

The Asians know this history. That is why they protect their home markets from foreign competition in order to build up their own industries and develop a skilled workforce.

Unfortunately, since FDR the CFR "free trade" globalist propaganda has become so thick and pervasive that you even find it on a Ron Paul message board.

You can even hear people saying that China practices free trade. :rolleyes:

Absolutely spot on. An excellent post.

Bosso
 
They can import all the Chinese cars they want. I won't buy one. The stuff that comes from China is pure crap. The cars won't be any different.
 
Hmmm, things got cheaper when we dropped the tariffs, so I guess the easiest way to win a trade war is to surrender your weapons.

In fact, this is probably true of all types of war. The only real way to win is not to participate.

NM - Jace just nailed it.
 
Have you been to China? Or Japan? Or Korea?

These countries DO NOT believe in free markets in any shape or form. They are mercantilist nations through and through and they practice economic warfare on their trade rivals. The very visible and heavy hand of the state directs all economic decisions. These countries have huge corporations, like Toyota, Sony, Hyundai, Samsung, COSCO Shipping and Petro China that are all in bed with their governments more so than any American corporation.

Did you know that Hyundai makes refrigerators and laptop computers and a million other consumer products? They make everything for the Korean market because they keep the Japanese and the Chinese out of Korea.

Try buying a Japanese car in Korea. It's nearly impossible and ridiculously expensive because of trade barriers. Japan is about a 40 minute boat ride from Korea but Sony, Toyota and Honda ship virtually nothing there because they are not allowed to.

How is it that a car manufactured in Korea and shipped here is cheaper to purchase in LA than in Seoul? Does that make any economic sense? Koreans fly to LA and purchase Korean cars manufactured in Korea. Then they ship them home because it's cheaper than buying a Korean-made car in their own country!

American citizens are not allowed to buy land in Korea or own businesses. Even if you surrender your American citizenship and take Korean citizenship (which like three Americans have done in the last 500 years), you are still not allowed to run for public office. You will never be considered a Korean and will always be a foreigner because you do not have Korean blood running through your veins.

And in Japan, third generation Koreans who are the descendants of slave laborers brought to Japan during the imperial period are not even granted citizenship to this day, even though they can't speak a word of Korean.

And the Chinese are more nationalistic than the Koreans and the Japanese. The Chinese believe the world has been turned upside down and history has been perverted because their former vassal states are now richer than they are. The Chinese are on a single-minded mission to correct this historical anomaly and return to their natural place as the Middle Kingdom in command of Asia.

China is buying companies in the United States in order to dismantle them, fire our workers and transfer the technology back to China. It's happening here in California right before our eyes. But any America who points out the obvious is some kind of heretic.

We are in a trade war and we are losing badly. We are losing all that has been built in over 200 years of our economic development -- built by patriots who believed in liberty and the pursuit of happiness and felt that Americans as a people had common economic interests.

All the Asian countries see themselves as distinct peoples with common economic interests -- not as global citizens on Tom Friedman's flat earth. The Asian countries all use import barriers, currency devaluation, intellectual theft, subsidies and shameless bribery in order to gain economic advantage and capture markets for their exports. They are playing a zero sum game in the United States while protecting their own home markets. That is how they built their economies. We have surrendered industry after industry to them. Now we are surrendering our greatest industry of all -- our automobile industry -- and every country in the world is looking on in amazement and disbelief and licking their chops to devour their piece of the quickly disappearing American pie. All these countries are fighting their economic battles not on their home turf, but on ours -- with the American worker and middle class being the biggest loser of all.

And OUR LEADERS DO NOT CARE. Our leaders are globalists who have sold us out economically for geo-political reasons. They want American troops in Asia and in Germany and have made a bargain to keep them there -- our jobs and living standards for American military bases on their land.

If you believe the Chinese believe in free trade and practice it, well, I don't know what to say. Maybe you believe prison labor is economic liberty, and prison sentences for bloggers is all well and good, and government censoring of the Internet is freedom, and charging the families of prisoners for the bullet used to execute them is fiscal responsibility.

Visit China. Visit Japan. Visit Korea. The people there are educated and many speak English and most are better versed in economics than the average American. They are all about economics because they know what it is to be hungry and poor and to have millions upon millions of people competing against them for a crappy subsistence wage job and a few grains of rice. They are not from an open land of abundance, but are from a crowded, polluted and poor part of the world lacking in everything from iron ore to farmland to clean drinking water. Talk to them, and you will soon learn that their version of economics is actually economic warfare based on nationalism and the defeat of ancient rivals. Kowtowing and hierarchies are how business is done. Family relationships trump efficiency and fairness every time. Nepotism and crony capitalism are the way their world works.

If we want to preserve our liberty, independence, economic freedom and prosperity, the first place a patriot would start would be with a massive tariff wall. This is what Thomas Jefferson did. He put up a tariff wall and eliminated domestic taxes. The economy boomed and the American standard of living became the highest the world had ever seen. People had so much money that they bought more imported goods than ever before, and the government had plenty of revenue -- paid for by foreigners who willingly paid tariffs for the privilege of making a profit here.

The Asians know this history. That is why they protect their home markets from foreign competition in order to build up their own industries and develop a skilled workforce.

Unfortunately, since FDR the CFR "free trade" globalist propaganda has become so thick and pervasive that you even find it on a Ron Paul message board.

You can even hear people saying that China practices free trade. :rolleyes:

Ummm, no-one said that China was either politically free, nor that they practiced free trade. Neither of those things really matter from an economic point of view. What matters is the lack of regulation and the low income taxes. Those two factors alone will catapult ANY economy, no matter how otherwise unfree they may be into the top spot in the world.

As for your apparent hatred of free trade, it's misguided. You talk about Korea, so think about what their trade barriers have gotten them. The produced a huge amount of goods and exported them, while simultaneously forbidding imports. So, what do they get for their exports? Dollars. What good are dollars? Not much, unless you spend them. If they buy anything from anywhere outside their borders with those dollars, then it is the same as if they had bought things directly from the US, because that money that is spent (lets say on oil), goes to another country, which is then used to purchase SOMETHING from another American company (if it isn't, then the company that winds up holding the dollars has been cheated, because they have traded their labor and/or goods for little pieces of paper that does nothing to improve their quality of life). Therefore, those tariffs do NOTHING to the outside world, except introduce the possibility of getting something for nothing (with the US being the one receiving the goods for free).

Any country that allows free trade will do better because its citizens can most efficiently allocate the foreign currency to meet their own needs, rather than the sum total of the outflows benefiting the government or foreigners.

America under Jefferson benefitted not because of the tariffs, but because of the lack of regulation and the lack of domestic taxes. In that case, the tariff did what it was designed to do, and helped the government. The only parties that will ever benefit from tariffs are the government which institutes and the foreigners who receive goods from the nation with the trade barriers.
 
There is no possible excuse or justification for our leaving our border completely porous to Chinese imports on any scale that significantly exceeds our exports to that nation.
 
China is more free market than the US hands down. Anyone can open up a shop and start a business without government interference. They don't need licenses, nor are they regulated for the things they produce.

Well, this is a point, but the subject is far more complex than this post lets on. Can you open a little restaurant in China with less red tape and hassle than you'd get from a local health department here? Most likely. Can you sell cars with less worries about safety features, sophisticated pollution equipment and liability concerns? Yes. But the bribery you'll have to do will be similar and the degree to which you're scrutinized after the fact won't be one whit less. And if you want to export, you'll have both that nation's regulations and your own government's 'grand plan' to deal with.

No, nothing free about China.
 
Not suprised, can't compete with China were workers make less than 8 dollars a day plus China being no 1 car market you need to be cozy with Chinese government if you want to compete there.

Well, when our dollar is worth 4 cents how much are you really making a day? Example: $20 an hour = 80 cents an hour = $6.40 a day.
 
Well, when our dollar is worth 4 cents how much are you really making a day? Example: $20 an hour = 80 cents an hour = $6.40 a day.

Yeah that's a common thing people do, statements like "they only make X dollars a day there" is completely worthless until you look into what that amount can actually buy in the same area. My brother has visited China several times and one thing he always talks about is how you can get a meal at a nice restaurant for a few cents in USD, and I'm sure that buying power transfer into other markets as well.

I've heard similar things about India where people will talk about how they seemingly make some horrible amount per month but if you look into it, that amount is enough to get a decent apartment, a car payment, and the same job that is giving them that "horrible pay" is also giving them a degree while they work there. Try doing that on minimum wage here. These countries are really much better off than so many Americans give them credit for, and they have been getting increasingly better over the past few years while ours is the exact opposite.
 
There is no possible excuse or justification for our leaving our border completely porous to Chinese imports on any scale that significantly exceeds our exports to that nation.

Did you read my post? Leaving our borders open does nothing but good for us and everyone that trades with us. By closing their borders to our goods, they only allow us to rob them, and increase the power of their own governments.
 
I've talked to plenty of people that did.

I'm not saying no one did. Anyone in Detroit is probably surrounded by people supportive of auto bailouts.

I'm just saying that the blame doesn't lie with a moronic public majority. The auto bailouts, along with the bank bailouts, were shoved down our throats from the top down. Blaming your fellow citizens is letting the real people responsible off the hook.
 
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