FEMA Teaching Police "Founding Fathers were Terrorists"

[pcosmar]

I had to feed the dogs, but I'm back.

CIA= corruption
Oh, where to begin here?
There is plenty documented and even more speculated.
Lets stick to what is known.
Operation Northwoods.
Though not pulled off, just the fact that it was considered and planed is horrifying.
http://www.nowpublic.com/false_flag...ed_terrorist_attacks_against_its_own_citizens

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3140.htm

Operation Paperclip
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Operation_Paperclip_file.html
http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

Some of the scientists would later work on,
Mk Ultra
There is a lot documented,but the survivors stories are most compelling. The last one is Bill Clinton apologizing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflBkRlpRy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ES8Bv0_8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22mphQsn5s

Operation Ajax
This one is related to our troubles in the Middle East.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

 

[pcosmar]

Yeah.. We see. Keep it down. Some people have not learned this yet. It is a fact that has been verified elsewhere. WHY DON"T YOU STOP PROTESTING the dissemination of protective knowledge. You afraid of it?

randy

While I don't usually have to provide documentation in my neighborhood, I can. This library at my fingertips is a wonderful thing.
Most of the farmers around here do not use computers, and they don't need one to know that the government stinks.
I have had little trouble presenting Ron Paul to them.
They welcome the message of Liberty.

 

[Daveforliberty]

I asked V4Vendetta (great movie, by the way) to prove that FEMA agents were actively and widely indoctrinating police with the idea that the Founding Fathers were terrorists, and he give me something about pastors as the "proof."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDle-SWsyio

Look V, I am probably as anti-government as you are, or more so, but in order for us to enlist more people to the cause, we have to be credible. This includes having rock solid evidence when we make claims people may take to be outrageous.

Starting a thread claiming that this is a FEMA standard, and then providing NO evidence to back it up, does not look credible. One six year old video with questionable meaning does not a federal training standard make. Not even with pastors on top.

 

[pcosmar]

This includes having rock solid evidence when we make claims people may take to be outrageous.

You really only need to look at the Executive orders.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/eo/femalist.htm

That is some truly nasty stuff.

 

[Nathan Hale]

OK, we Want to play that silly game. Here you go.

You're missing the point. This isn't a "silly game". This is serious discourse. The burden on the person making a point isn't simply to speak his peace. When you seek to make a point, you need to show that your point is correct through logic and evidence. This isn't me trying to play some silly game, this is me telling you that if you want to be taken seriously in a public forum, you need to bring something more than wanton claims to the table.

A simple Google search will fill volumes, but here are some quick ones.

Please. I could google search my way to any conclusion. Your sources need to be credible, not merely plentiful.

FEMA= corruption
This from the Sun Sentinel
http://www.yuricareport.com/Disaster/FEMAunderBushTrailOfCorruption.html
I saw much of the same in the Keys. I have personally been through 8 hurricanes in the Florida Keys. I saw stuff thats not on Google.

These stories point to rampant ineptitude, not authoritarianism-influenced corruption.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10577522/
Corruption waste and incompetence after Katrina.

This shows that a news agency reports an investigation into potential petty corruption after Katrina. But this isn't evidence of corruption, or, more specifically, the kind of corruption that you have spoken about in this thread.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1749771/posts

Something was stolen from FEMA. Why did you list this as evidence?

How about that FAKE news conference.
http://corruption.justsickshit.com/2007/11/taxpayer-money/fema-fake-press-conference/

Now you're getting warmed up, but still, this isn't evidence of widespread corruption, and especially not of any sort of desire to destroy our civil liberties and institute a police state. The article points out that a specific group of individuals were at fault, and that the individual in charge is no longer employed by FEMA.

 

[tnvoter]

Pffft. One idiot does not a conspiracy make.

MASTER YODA! <333

 

[Nathan Hale]

CIA= corruption
Oh, where to begin here?
There is plenty documented and even more speculated.

Good to hear. So let's see what you bring to the table.

Lets stick to what is known.

There's the spirit. We ONLY debate what we know, because otherwise we end up cornered by the person on the other end who inevitable knows something we don't.

Operation Northwoods.
Though not pulled off, just the fact that it was considered and planed is horrifying.
http://www.nowpublic.com/false_flag...ed_terrorist_attacks_against_its_own_citizens

Ahh, Operation Northwoods. I've read it numerous times over the years. Have you?

To start with, your source is flawed. You link to a public access "media" site, and the person who posted the story is without a doubt biased. But Operation Northwoods is a commonly mentioned criticism of the CIA so I'm willing to look past flaws in the source and run with the idea of Northwoods as evidence of corruption. And it is. Northwoods is a great source to use when speaking to what our government is capable of. Granted, this happened almost 50 years ago, the operation was rejected, and the provisions of the operation were far more demure than people let on when summarizing it, but taken as a whole it's a good line item to show evidence of criminal intent in the CIA.

But Northwoods isn't a magic bullet to convince people that government is evil, because Northwoods was rejected. And Kennedy, as a result of Northwoods, authored an NASM limiting the CIA to intelligence gathering and putting covert operations under the auspicies of the Pentagon and the Joint Chiefs.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3140.htm

Once again, watch your source. The article is pulled from a CBS article, so link directly to the CBS article. But linking to a tin foil hate site like informationclearinghouse.info is not advisable.

Operation Paperclip
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Operation_Paperclip_file.html

This "source" is a MESS. The bibliography is jumbled at the bottom, a hodge-podge of tin foil hats and legitimate journalism, but none of it is directly attributed to the specific claims made in the article, so I have no idea what information comes from where. You're better off avoiding information like this.

http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

A much prettier, yet just as vague web site. There is no attribution for anything.

Some of the scientists would later work on,
Mk Ultra

I don't see this point proven yet.

There is a lot documented,but the survivors stories are most compelling. The last one is Bill Clinton apologizing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflBkRlpRy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ES8Bv0_8w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22mphQsn5s

Now you're getting the hang of it. Direct video of a congressional testimony followed by an apology from the President. My only criticism is that the Clinton video may well be the lowest-quality video I've ever seen. There has to be a better one out there.

Operation Ajax
This one is related to our troubles in the Middle East.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

[/quote]

Once again, try to steer clear of using politically-biased sites as sources, but Ajax is another good, verifiable example of some poor morality on the part of the CIA. That's why Ron Paul talks a lot about our overthrowing the Shah, because it's so well documented that if pressed, he'd be able to come up with proof. That's what this is all about - being able to support your argument with proof.

 

[pcosmar]

Once again, try to steer clear of using politically-biased sites as sources, but Ajax is another good, verifiable example of some poor morality on the part of the CIA. That's why Ron Paul talks a lot about our overthrowing the Shah, because it's so well documented that if pressed, he'd be able to come up with proof. That's what this is all about - being able to support your argument with proof.

Every site is biased. There is no getting around that.
Also I have had to Re Research some, as much of what I have learned has been over the last 30+ years and much of that was books. I have only had the of a computer for about 4 years.
Thats probably why I voted for Bush.

 

[Nathan Hale]

Every site is biased. There is no getting around that.

True, but some sites carry more weight than others. The public takes the word of cbs.com more seriously than it does informationclearhouse.info or Alex Jones. I've never tried to say that cbs.com has a greater claim to the truth than informationclearhouse or Jones, but it has a greater claim to acceptance. And in order for people to process information, they need to accept the information. Which means it needs to come from a trusted source.

Also I have had to Re Research some, as much of what I have learned has been over the last 30+ years and much of that was books. I have only had the of a computer for about 4 years.

This is important to the debate, because the internet, for all that it is a great equalizer of access to information, it is also the greatest source of dispersing DISinformation and speculation. To wit, all those forwards you get from your friends with stupid factoids and other "facts." The internet disperses information, both real information and bullshit rumor/speculation/lies. So it's important to wade through the muck and try to discern who is credible in your own mind, but also who is credible to the masses.

Thats probably why I voted for Bush.

Your secret is safe with me.

 

[pcosmar]

I do not believe there is any ONE site or source that would defend my position, but rather the cumulative weight of evidence. Pieces from here and there, laws and policies that have come about over many years and by many players.
For instance FEMA. Though it came into existence under Reagan, it was grown out of the Executive Orders of Kennedy. They were most probably signed with good intentions. That was Cold War era, and though never implemented, are still "on the books".
FEMA also had good intentions, though bureaucracy, greed and graft had been corrupted.
Now FEMA is incorporated in DHS. Add the Patriot Act, Military Commission Act, the suspension of Habeas Corpus, and the new Domestic Terrorism Bill, and there is a very serious danger of abuse.
The Executive Orders that were signed are scary enough, and are Questionable under the Constitution.
Taken as a whole, We the People are in a precarious position.

 

[Nathan Hale]

I do not believe there is any ONE site or source that would defend my position, but rather the cumulative weight of evidence. Pieces from here and there, laws and policies that have come about over many years and by many players.

The problem, especially with the internet, is that many aligned groups will run the same BS on all of their sites. Sure it looks more credible when Alex Jones, informationclearinghouse, whatreallyhappened, From the Wilderness, and Lyndon LaRouche all say the same thing, but realize that they're all interconnected and thus get their information from the same places and perpetuate it to the same audience.

For instance FEMA. Though it came into existence under Reagan, it was grown out of the Executive Orders of Kennedy. They were most probably signed with good intentions. That was Cold War era, and though never implemented, are still "on the books".
FEMA also had good intentions, though bureaucracy, greed and graft had been corrupted.
Now FEMA is incorporated in DHS. Add the Patriot Act, Military Commission Act, the suspension of Habeas Corpus, and the new Domestic Terrorism Bill, and there is a very serious danger of abuse.

Yes. I agree with you. This is the problem that Ron Paul speaks to. Where we break is when you imply that this danger was deliberately orchestrated so that a police state could emerge in the US. That is where I start to demand some serious evidence.

The Executive Orders that were signed are scary enough, and are Questionable under the Constitution.

Which Executive Orders?

Taken as a whole, We the People are in a precarious position.

Of course, which is why Ron Paul is such an attractive candidate.

 

[pcosmar]

Which Executive Orders?

Well I was studying in a Law Library in the early 80s. I am not sure the exact text and have had no luck finding it online.
I believe they were in Kennedy's time.
Reagan was President and there have been Orders signed in every administration. Some things have changed, such as the incorporation of FEMA under Reagan and now the DHS under Bush.
The ones that I have found online are somewhat different, but very similar.

 

[Nathan Hale]

Well I was studying in a Law Library in the early 80s. I am not sure the exact text and have had no luck finding it online.
I believe they were in Kennedy's time.
Reagan was President and there have been Orders signed in every administration. Some things have changed, such as the incorporation of FEMA under Reagan and now the DHS under Bush.
The ones that I have found online are somewhat different, but very similar.

I ask this only because (specifics escape me as well) there were a large number of executive orders often listed to "prove" that our government is borderline orwellian, and they've mostly been overturned and repealed.

 

[lucius]

What we chose to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c&feature=user

 

[Nathan Hale]

What we chose to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c&feature=user

While this video has quite sexy, it's just a rehash of an old email that's made the rounds and has been widely discredited. Data is taken out of context, and many of the executive orders listed have been revoked.

Sure, we have a problem with excessive government, but let's not pretend that we're on the verge of concentration camps.

 

[raiha]

This is Judge Napolitano on liberties..you can see why RP is on fire. You need half an hour to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwTKKSvR8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzUL9KkgvA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yhSifZ5jI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRukPp9Tq5k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-36NrJJA9I
'A Nation of Sheep' (he attacks Lincoln and Sherman in this one!)

 

[OptionsTrader]

This is Judge Napolitano on liberties..you can see why RP is on fire. You need half an hour to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwTKKSvR8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXzUL9KkgvA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yhSifZ5jI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRukPp9Tq5k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-36NrJJA9I
'A Nation of Sheep' (he attacks Lincoln and Sherman in this one!)

Great video of the Judge.

Bump.

 

[V4Vendetta]

bump

 

[Nathan Hale]

bump

Why bump this thread?

I know, I'm bumping it too by replying, but I'm making a point, and it's this:

The video at the start of this thread shows us nothing conclusive. It's a lot of raw information to which you and others are applying a context that you cannot prove.

Supplying these threads with evidence of government wrongdoing is great, but make sure that's it's actual evidence and not speculation.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Why bump this thread?

I know, I'm bumping it too by replying, but I'm making a point, and it's this:

The video at the start of this thread shows us nothing conclusive. It's a lot of raw information to which you and others are applying a context that you cannot prove.

Supplying these threads with evidence of government wrongdoing is great, but make sure that's it's actual evidence and not speculation.

I am bumping this thread because various police officials from around the country have verified this.