FBI 'raided' Mar-a-Lago

[TheTexan]

That's one of our biggest disagreements. They're not just dumb, they're dumber than dumb. Like, whatever you think is the lowest level of stupidity at which a human can still be day-to-day operational... think of something a thousand IQ points dumber than that. We are not fighting super-villains... we are fighting super-clowns. Until you get that into your head, you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye on this topic.

Dumber than you can possibly imagine. That's not hyperbole.

Their intellect is (generally) fine but like most people they are guided by emotion. And they hate Trump with impressive intensity. It supersedes any intellect that may or may not exist.

 

[kahless]

Yep, you have to be pretty deep on the spectrum, to not be able to see the visceral hatred they have for Trump.

The idea that they secretly love Trump, is like the autistic version of the moon landing conspiracy.

There is no indication from anyone that there is this belief of some some secret love from his loudest opposition. That is ridiculous. Sounds more like you want to disparage anyone that calls out your false god.

I think some people fail to understand that the hatred is the power struggle within the club which for the most part has nothing to do with Trump sharing any of the same beliefs as you. Trump will use you and your beliefs to hit them over the head to win the power struggle but has no allegiance to it. Trump not being a team player and fighting back after repeated rejection is a more likely reason for the opposition within the club.

Historically Trump has held the same beliefs as the rest of the elite club. His beliefs only changed when he saw the only opening was on the right. He even said it himself that if the Clinton's did not have a stranglehold on the Democratic Party he probably would have taken that opening instead,

 

[TheTexan]

There is no indication from anyone that there is this belief of some some secret love from his loudest opposition. That is ridiculous. Sounds more like you want to disparage anyone that calls out your false god.

Ya, I won't bother posting examples, but I can't go half a page into a Trump thread, without someone saying the media/DC/elites/whatever are doing X, Y, or Z because they want to get Trump re-elected, or that Trump is a member of the elites and they chose to get him elected, or whatever.

If you want to be tedious about the word selection and say that's not "love" that's fine but the point still stands.

 

[acptulsa]

There is no indication from anyone that there is this belief of some some secret love from his loudest opposition. That is ridiculous.

Isn't it?

All fall and half the winter, Republicans watch men do fierce battle on football fields, while generally trying to play within the rules. And the have no trouble at all understanding how they can fight for dominance and glory without letting it go outside the form of the game that pays them a good salary.

And yet, they can't picture how politicians can vie for dominance without exposing the game or forgetting to screw the constituents.

There's another disconnect I don't get. Maybe Tex is right. Maybe all of us who can see our hands in front of our faces are weird, autistic, something different.

Ya, I won't bother posting examples, but I can't go half a page into a Trump thread, without someone saying the media/DC/elites/whatever are doing X, Y, or Z because they want to get Trump re-elected, or that Trump is a member of the elites and they chose to get him elected, or whatever.

If you want to be tedious about the word selection and say that's not "love" that's fine but the point still stands.

Was there ever a football team, ever in history, who had a quarterback who was a total asshole and was universally despised, yet his teammates put up with him because he was good at his job?

 

[TheTexan]

Maybe Tex is right. Maybe all of us who can see our hands in front of our faces are weird, autistic, something different.

Well pretty much everyone on this board is weird, autistic, or something different.

But for those who doubt the sincerity of the left/media/DC's hatred of Trump.... I would advise those people to take their own level of weirdness into account when making that judgement.

 

[acptulsa]

Well pretty much everyone on this board is weird, autistic, or something different.

But for those who doubt the sincerity of the left/media/DC's hatred of Trump.... I would advise those people to take their own level of weirdness into account when making that judgement.

Who cares what those tools hate? They don't tell Bill Gates what to do, he issues orders to them. Including, particularly, who to fire.

Linebackers hit running backs like they want them to stop, too. If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten the job.

The useful idiots are sincere! So? Got a point you want to make?

 

[ClaytonB]

You're half right. We get to agree to disagree.

Their arrogance and godlessness may make them foolish. But that doesn't mean they can't plan and execute a strategy.

To clarify, I don't say that they're stupid because I underestimate their ambition. And I know they can execute a plan, etc. But the counterpoint:

 

[acptulsa]

To clarify, I don't say that they're stupid because I underestimate their ambition. And I know they can execute a plan, etc. But the counterpoint:

Agreed. But I still don't intend to underestimate how dangerous they are, how involved their strategies are, or how ruthlessly the keep their henchmen in line.

I don't see stupidity at the top of that structure. Arrogance. They don't believe in God, and are convinced they're right. They're so psychotic they think they can beat God. Whatever. It doesn't lead me to believe that they can't hire a bunch of talking heads who hate one of their own specifically because that's how the plan works.

 

[TheTexan]

Was there ever a football team, ever in history, who had a quarterback who was a total asshole and was universally despised, yet his teammates put up with him because he was good at his job?

See, you don't understand the level of hatred. To them, he's not just an asshole. He is literally Hitler.

Plenty of coaches/players have been fired for less recently... even if they were good at their job.

 

[TheTexan]

Who cares what those tools hate? They don't tell Bill Gates what to do, he issues orders to them. Including, particularly, who to fire.

Linebackers hit running backs like they want them to stop, too. If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten the job.

The useful idiots are sincere! So? Got a point you want to make?

I would make a point but I'm unable to get your point. Do you have a point you want to make?

 

[ClaytonB]

Who cares what those tools hate? They don't tell Bill Gates what to do, he issues orders to them. Including, particularly, who to fire.

Linebackers hit running backs like they want them to stop, too. If they didn't, they wouldn't have gotten the job.

The useful idiots are sincere! So? Got a point you want to make?

You vastly overestimate the competence and significance of household names. Bill Gates is more like the Monopoly Man (a widely-recognized brand image) than some actual "mover-and-shaker", which is how he perceives himself and wants everybody else to perceive him. You put too much stock in appearances and take too little account of the unseen depths below. The Abyss is what moves this evil world. The puppets moving across the screen are just the final stage of perception, where the Abyss becomes materially visible. And the idea that "Everything Is a Rich Man's Trick" -- the title of the YT propaganda video that is continually pumped by the Algorithm -- is just a black-pill. No, the Abyss does not control all the puppets. That's where this crosses over to being a New Testament issue. God has his people, too. Who they are is anybody's guess but "unlikeliest" is the watchword......

 

[acptulsa]

Jesus.

Well, I guess it's to you guys' credit that you just can't wrap your mind around these demons. But it illustrates why we can't throw off this yoke.

Having faith in God does not require a refusal to believe in evil, nor a conviction that because the evil are wrong they must be stupid. And the deep partisan affection of the play-by-play announcer of the home team's radio network doesn't mean the coach couldn't possibly have the other coach over for a drink after the game.

No eyes to see with...

 

[Sonny Tufts]

Nope, that dude was eventually charged with 18 USC 793, but the raid on his home was for 18 USC 641 (theft) and 18 USC 1924 (unauthorized removal)

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/do...ent-contractor-harold-thomas-martin-iii/2174/

You asked, "When has anyone's home been raided, over having classified documents". The guy did, in fact, have classified documents, so it's immaterial what he was eventually charged with.

 

[TheTexan]

You asked, "When has anyone's home been raided, over having classified documents". The guy did, in fact, have classified documents, so it's immaterial what he was eventually charged with.

You missed the point then. The reason why I asked that question, as I did, is because it seems like an extreme measure to raid someone's home over a relatively minor offense such as 18 USC 793.

The example you provided has done nothing to dissuade me of that notion, as the warrant to raid Harold Martin's home was over more severe offenses. It is indeed "immaterial", to me, what he was eventually charged with.

 

[ClaytonB]

Jesus.

Well, I guess it's to you guys' credit that you just can't wrap your mind around these demons. But it illustrates why we can't throw off this yoke.

We are all blind men groping the elephant. I can at least grant that you may be groping some other part of the elephant I don't know about. Try to grant the same consideration to me, and I think it will make my posts much more readable for you.

Having faith in God does not require a refusal to believe in evil, nor a conviction that because the evil are wrong they must be stupid.

I'm not making any inferences. I'm informing you: they are more stupid than you dare to imagine. Note the "than you dare to imagine". That's not hyperbole. And it's not guesswork or inference, either.

No eyes to see with...

Your eyes are obsessed with Trump-the-person, and that's how you're being hoodwinked, all while telling yourself that you're peering through to the "real reality". Your finishing move is "Trump is working for the same guys that Biden/etc are working for"... dude, I was already there six years ago. Way ahead of you. But as new information has emerged, I have reevaluated my old assumptions.

Yes, the wicked have a conspiracy. So what? God's conspiracy is even bigger. And guess who loses in the end -- THEY DO. Whether God chooses to work through Trump or not is up to God, and our perceptions of that are, ultimately, just perceptions. The bigger lesson is that Klaussie's bug-eating Antichrist World Order conspiracy is just fuel for the flames, one way or another...

Has not the Lord Almighty determined
That the people’s labor is only fuel for the fire,
That the nations exhaust themselves for nothing?
(Hab. 2:13)

Therefore once more I will astound these people
With wonder upon wonder;
The wisdom of the wise will perish,
The intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”
Woe to those who go to great depths
To hide their plans from the Lord,
Who do their work in darkness and think,
“Who sees us? Who will know?”
You turn things upside down,
As if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
“You did not make me”?
Can the pot say to the potter,
“You know nothing”?
(Isaiah 29:14-16)

 

[ClaytonB]

You missed the point then. The reason why I asked that question, as I did, is because it seems like an extreme measure to raid someone's home over a relatively minor offense such as 18 USC 793.

The example you provided has done nothing to dissuade me of that notion, as the warrant to raid Harold Martin's home was over more severe offenses. It is indeed "immaterial", to me, what he was eventually charged with.

In general, mishandling of TS material is a very serious offense and can result in severe punishment. Bradley Manning is a good example of that and, if they ever get their hands on him, Edward Snowden would be also.

The problem with the entire public narrative surrounding the Mar-a-Lago raid is that POTUS (including ex-POTUS) is in an entirely separate legal category from all other Federal officials or agents because POTUS is the personification of Executive secrecy. The nuclear codes are only ever held and controlled by one man, that's the whole reason that the football exists. There are procedures and criteria for the use of nuclear weapons but, in the case of a real nuclear emergency, there is exactly and only one decision-maker in respect to nuclear launch: POTUS. That captures the essence of what "executive" really means. It's that way because, in the most extreme emergency, "collaborative consensus" is a recipe for annihilation. In the same way, POTUS has sole, unitary discretion to declassify any document in the executive branch. Whether he exercises that authority without legal consultation, is a separate matter, but he has it. In this respect, POTUS is completely unlike any other Federal official and it's patently absurd to examine the President's handling of classified materials through the legal lens that you would apply to, say, an FBI agent or Pentagon staff. If POTUS wanted to, he could scatter the classified Roswell files from the Presidential limo like parade-candy. If Biden did it, they'd all laugh, but if Trump had done it, they would have tried to initiate 25th-amendment protocol. Either way, it would not be an 18 USC question.

It is my view that, for the same reason that POTUS and family have lifetime USSS protection, ex-POTUS handling of TS information can't be treated through the 18-USC lens. Yes, ex-POTUS isn't POTUS, but he could declassify anything he wants and leave office with it that way (100% legal, by force) so it makes no sense to say, "Sorry sir, you can't retain that information after you leave office." What are you going to do, neuralyze all ex-POTUS's with a MIB neuralyzer? As if POTUS walks out the door and just magically forgets the classified info he had access to (which is 100% of all classified info in the executive.) If they file charges (and it seems they're locked into it now), it's not a case that can even be heard by any lower court, it has to go straight to SCOTUS because it's really a separation-of-powers case. Yes, DoJ can charge ex-POTUS but it's kind of like standing on your father's lap to slap him in the face -- the very same people who are charging him are his inferiors (the honor of rank persists even after service), and the information he's now supposedly mishandling he had unilateral power to declassify at any time as POTUS. So it's just nonsense. If it wasn't properly secured on the premises, that's the Federal government's fault because they were just out to Mar-a-Lago and installed the locks/security where the documents were being secured.

This entire story is transparently a dog-and-pony show, textbook Wag the Dog, and the intentionally lobotomized discussion surrounding it bears all the marks of standard PSYOP. Whether Trump is the one pulling the strings, or somebody else, is anybody's guess. But somebody is pulling strings and the dancing marionettes are dancing around like a bunch of clowns...

 

[TheTexan]

In general, mishandling of TS material is a very serious offense and can result in severe punishment. Bradley Manning is a good example of that and, if they ever get their hands on him, Edward Snowden would be also.

Bradley Manning was charged with a whole bunch of stuff more serious than "mishandling of TS". The 18 USC 793 charges were the least of his worries...

And same would go for Edward Snowden. Snowden would wish to be so lucky to only be charged with 18 USC 793.

You are correct that they take this stuff seriously, but when they do, its when they have stronger charges to play than 18 USC 793.

18 USC 793 by itself is almost impossible to charge and convict someone with, in no small part because it is very difficult to prove intent. I would assume that basically anyone who is convicted under that section would have done so as part of a plea bargain.

And similarly... to get a warrant for 18 USC 793, one would presumably have to show evidence that there is probable cause of not just the possession of classified documents, but the intent to use them maliciously. Extremely hard to prove - and one of the reasons why I would suspect there are not very many raids on people's homes on that specific charge.

The exception would be subsection (d) which says documents must be returned to the government upon request. Presumably that's what they are referring to... but they would still need to prove obstruction (... waiting ...)

 

[fcreature]

Why? What kept him?

I still say the gaping hole in this theory is, there's no possible reason why not one single page came out, not one hint was given that they might come out, except that the person holding all this lovely stuff was, like a blackmailer, still taking bids for his silence.

Were you asleep for 4 years? Do I seriously need to answer this question?

Hoaxes by the day. Investigation after investigation. Special counsels. Activist judges and DAs. Constant process crimes and obstruction of justice charges (and others) looming over his head. Literally tens of thousands of entrenched bureaucrats all with aligned self-preservation interests intent on slow-rolling and throwing wrenches in any way they could. The total and complete weaponization of every agency, system and process against the Orange Man. His own political party working against his interests.

Trump is a lot of things, but I'm sure he did not want to end up dead or in prison.

our beloved high-energy go-getter Alpha

Careful, you are signaling strong levels of TDS here.

I have plenty of complaints when it comes to Trump, but some of you around here are so triggered by the man, you can't even recognize obvious truths right in front of you.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

it seems like an extreme measure to raid someone's home over a relatively minor offense such as 18 USC 793.

If you're referring to the Trump search warrant, 18 USC 793 was only one of the statutes referred to. The other two deal with obstruction of justice and destruction or concealment of public records.

We won't really know how minor a charge against Trump under Section 793 would be until we know exactly what sort of records were recovered from Mar-a-Lago. Suppose they included things like a list of CIA operatives or outlines of strategies in connection with ongoing negotiations with other countries. Those are hardly minor matters.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

If they file charges (and it seems they're locked into it now), it's not a case that can even be heard by any lower court, it has to go straight to SCOTUS because it's really a separation-of-powers case.

The Supreme Court's original jurisdiction is limited to cases affecting "ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party". It wouldn't extend to a criminal case against Trump. The case would start in a lower court and would undoubtedly be appealed to SCOTUS.

Moreover, how does a separation-of-powers issue even arise? Trump was not President when he concealed the material. He had no legal authority to possess it, and he wasn't part of the Executive Branch at the time. He was a private citizen.