EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[Anti Federalist]

All because I think weight is a weighty subject. Funny what gets you cancelled in this modern culture.

LOL, I see what you did there.

Look, people want to spend their own money on EVs, fine, be my guest.

This mandated push to electrify, based on Marxist climate hysteria, is another thing altogether.

I live in the sticks, in the hills, in a cold climate, at the tail end of a single wire, split phase grid connection.

Electrification of my home and transportation is out of the question.

I heat my home with wood, which they are looking to ban.

I cook with bottled propane gas, which they are looking to ban.

I drive large trucks that have the needed ground clearance and 4wd to get around in the snow, which they are looking to ban.

A $100,000 EV F150 and three phase grid service to recharge it, is just not an option.

Leave me alone and I'll leave the EV people alone.

 

[GomerPile]

Let's take this one point:

The energy content of one gallon of gasoline is 34kwh. I don't care where it comes from wave a wand and it just appears. Is that a true statement?

If it is, how many miles will your ICE car travel using that gallon of gas?

If you dumped that gas into a magic generator that is 100% efficient how far would your EV travel?

Part 1 - you are comparing gasoline to STORED energy. If you compare gasoline to the fuel to generate that energy, you would see that your efficiency numbers evaporate. Even most of the religious believers now accept that. In the "real world", it takes more energy to move heavier things. Put 3 300lb linebackers in your Chevette and you'll notice it'll take more energy to move your car. Weight matters! (not to mention the road wear and tear, safety, and insurance implications that are being paid for by others)

 

[CaptUSA]

Let's take this one point:

The energy content of one gallon of gasoline is 34kwh. I don't care where it comes from wave a wand and it just appears. Is that a true statement?

If it is, how many miles will your ICE car travel using that gallon of gas?

If you dumped that gas into a magic generator that is 100% efficient how far would your EV travel?

Great - since you're too lazy to go back in this thread and want to keep playing your ignorance game, let's go.

NO generator is 100% efficient. BUT... if you put that gas into a generator, then used the generator to charge up your EV battery, then used the battery to move your heavier vehicle, it would be WAY less efficient than if you just used the gallon of gas in your internal combustion engine to move the lighter vehicle. In the latter case, more energy gets transferred to motion than in the former case. How is this even debatable???

Can you see your mistake, yet???

 

[GomerPile]

You didn't answer the questions....no shit generators are not 100% efficient....thats why I call it a "Magic generator"

what is the answer?

Great - since you're too lazy to go back in this thread and want to keep playing your ignorance game, let's go.

NO generator is 100% efficient. BUT... if you put that gas into a generator, then used the generator to charge up your EV battery, then used the battery to move your heavier vehicle, it would be WAY less efficient than if you just used the gallon of gas in your internal combustion engine to move the lighter vehicle. In the latter case, more energy gets transferred to motion than in the former case. How is this even debatable???

Can you see your mistake, yet???

 

[CaptUSA]

You didn't answer the questions....no shit generators are not 100% efficient....thats why I call it a "Magic generator"

what is the answer?

Different ICE vehicles will have different efficiencies. So you'll get differing mileages.

But it would still take a magic generator to make an EV more efficient. (although, as stated earlier in this thread, with regenerative braking, you can get closer)

 

[GomerPile]

Lets estimate then:

Toyta Camary = 32MPG (Weight =3400 pounds)

Tesla Model 3 = 4 miles per kwh (Weight = 4000 pounds)

Camary will travel 23 miles.
Tesla will travel 122 miles (factoring in some losses)

The Tesla travels more distance even though it weighs 600 pounds more....why? Both were supplied with 34 kwh of energy.

Different ICE vehicles will have different efficiencies. So you'll get differing mileages.

But it would still take a magic generator to make an EV more efficient. (although, as stated earlier in this thread, with regenerative braking, you can get closer)

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

Different ICE vehicles will have different efficiencies. So you'll get differing mileages.

But it would still take a magic generator to make an EV more efficient. (although, as stated earlier in this thread, with regenerative braking, you can get closer)

That's where a hybrid might even be an option for AF. (sorry AF, just teasing a bit) If the battery recharges from braking, you don't waste that energy, and you can use it after the stop to get back up to speed. Also, the battery pack doesn't have to be that big and expensive... I've driven a few of those cars and the extra power from the electrics is nice, and for a short hop to the store you don't always have to start the ICE.

But I ended up not purchasing one, because they are way too expensive new. And second hand, they are usually sold right before they run out of warranty... And if anything related to the electrical system breaks, you it's expensive. My diesel is 16 years old now, has done 161kmi in that time, half of it in the past 2 years. It's very low in maintenance cost and at our current electricity prices cheaper in fuel as well as an electric car would be. I think over the lifespan of an electric car, maintenance might add up, of course, that's because the technology needs further development.

Irregardless if the environmental concerns of ICE engines are correct, disel engines with virtually zero particles/NOx exhaust have been developed. There are many ways in which biodiesel can be made, that make it a closed loop. In that way, I do think there is a very good future for diesel engines. But to AF's concerns, probably more for rural and long range or heavy haul use... Inside a city with good charging infrastructure and short rides EV's make total sense. Less brake dust, less exhaust.

Lastly, I do have to say that over here there are so many charging stations that pretty much everywhere you park you can plug in. That is kind of convenient.

 

[CaptUSA]

Lets estimate then:

Toyta Camary = 32MPG (Weight =3400 pounds)

Tesla Model 3 = 4 miles per kwh (Weight = 4000 pounds)

Camary will travel 23 miles.
Tesla will travel 122 miles (factoring in some losses)

The Tesla travels more distance even though it weighs 600 pounds more....why? Both were supplied with 34 kwh of energy.

Are you really this stupid or are you being a troll???

The battery doesn't "supply" the energy in the Tesla - it only stores it. If you trace it to the source of the fuel, your error will become readily apparent. Unless you get your energy solely from nuclear power, the losses that you're talking about with gas still happen. They just happen before the energy gets to the vehicle. You have generation losses, you have an average of 6% line losses, you have conversion losses putting it into the battery, then you have storage losses (which will be compounded by temperature).

Now, you can get some of the energy back during braking, but not enough to offset those losses. The ICE vehicle will win the energy efficiency battle in most cases. Diesel will be even better. Nuclear powered EV's are tops depending on how the vehicle is driven. Solar PV powered EV's are the absolute worst.

Now, really, unless you're trolling - go back and read the thread to view the data that explains all this.

 

[acptulsa]

The Tesla travels more distance even though it weighs 600 pounds more....why? Both were supplied with 34 kwh of energy.

Because you don't care to talk about how much energy was consumed to trickle 34 kilowatt hours into that battery. You want to talk about generators that run on magic. But as you noted earlier, turbines that run on real fuel are only just clawing their way up to 60% efficiency.

Why do you bring up leprechauns and unicorns and never connect them to a relevant point?

The Tesla doesn't get energy until the chemical reaction (if any) is done and the transmission losses are lost. That's why propagandists prefer to talk to people stupid enough to accept that electricity can simply be gotten from any wire, without regard to what happens at the other end of it. It transfers the chemical reaction out of the car, and propagandists figure that allows them to ignore it altogether.

People who cook numbers in public should really at least get a cookbook.

 

[CaptUSA]

That's where a hybrid might even be an option for AF. (sorry AF, just teasing a bit) If the battery recharges from braking, you don't waste that energy, and you can use it after the stop to get back up to speed. Also, the battery pack doesn't have to be that big and expensive... I've driven a few of those cars and the extra power from the electrics is nice, and for a short hop to the store you don't always have to start the ICE.

Yep, hybrids get you the best (and worst) of both worlds. Let's you get the regenerative braking but avoid carrying around all the extra weight everywhere. For longer trips, you have the gas backup, but now you're also carrying around more weight than a conventional ICE.

Strictly speaking, you should select the best tool for the job.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

Are you really this stupid or are you being a troll???

The battery doesn't "supply" the energy in the Tesla - it only stores it. If you trace it to the source of the fuel, your error will become readily apparent. Unless you get your energy solely from nuclear power, the losses that you're talking about with gas still happen. They just happen before the energy gets to the vehicle. You have generation losses, you have an average of 6% line losses, you have conversion losses putting it into the battery, then you have storage losses (which will be compounded by temperature).

Now, you can get some of the energy back during braking, but not enough to offset those losses. The ICE vehicle will win the energy efficiency battle in most cases. Diesel will be even better. Nuclear powered EV's are tops depending on how the vehicle is driven. Solar PV powered EV's are the absolute worst.

Now, really, unless you're trolling - go back and read the thread to view the data that explains all this.

I get the argument about fuel or energy. However I also understand what Gomer is saying.

There's nothing wrong with the statement that (provided the numbers are good, I did not check);

1L gas - Camry 23mi (on average)

34kWh - Tesla does 122mi (on average)

Let me know if you agree so far.

When you start to say that the electric car is more efficient despite the higher weight, I think it opens it up to more external factors, such as the production, transportation and storage of the energy involved.

 

[GomerPile]

we are not talking about any of the stuff you keep bringing up. Forget about WHERE the energy comes from. We are looking at consumption only.


Toyta Camary = 32MPG (Weight =3400 pounds)

Tesla Model 3 = 4 miles per kwh (Weight = 4000 pounds)

Camary will travel 32 miles. <<<this may have been typoed above sorry
Tesla will travel 122 miles (factoring in some losses)

The Tesla travels more distance even though it weighs 600 pounds more....why? Both were supplied with 34 kwh of energy.


The answer is that the ICE engine does not turn the 34kwh into motion at the same efficiency as an electric motor.

Yes, the EV has some internal conversion losses due to the inverters and other things (its heavy too). That 122 miles assumes a 10% loss.

Only considering energy consumption do you agree that the EV travels ~90 miles further on the same 34 kWh energy input?

Are you really this stupid or are you being a troll???

The battery doesn't "supply" the energy in the Tesla - it only stores it. If you trace it to the source of the fuel, your error will become readily apparent. Unless you get your energy solely from nuclear power, the losses that you're talking about with gas still happen. They just happen before the energy gets to the vehicle. You have generation losses, you have an average of 6% line losses, you have conversion losses putting it into the battery, then you have storage losses (which will be compounded by temperature).

Now, you can get some of the energy back during braking, but not enough to offset those losses. The ICE vehicle will win the energy efficiency battle in most cases. Diesel will be even better. Nuclear powered EV's are tops depending on how the vehicle is driven. Solar PV powered EV's are the absolute worst.

Now, really, unless you're trolling - go back and read the thread to view the data that explains all this.

 

[CaptUSA]

we are not talking about any of the stuff you keep bringing up. Forget about WHERE the energy comes from. We are looking at consumption only.


Toyta Camary = 32MPG (Weight =3400 pounds)

Tesla Model 3 = 4 miles per kwh (Weight = 4000 pounds)

Camary will travel 32 miles. <<<this may have been typoed above sorry
Tesla will travel 122 miles (factoring in some losses)

The Tesla travels more distance even though it weighs 600 pounds more....why? Both were supplied with 34 kwh of energy.


The answer is that the ICE engine does not turn the 34kwh into motion at the same efficiency as an electric motor.

Yes, the EV has some internal conversion losses due to the inverters and other things (its heavy too). That 122 miles assumes a 10% loss.

Only considering energy consumption do you agree that the EV travels ~90 miles further on the same 34 kWh energy input?

Do you understand the difference between a motor and a vehicle???? The whole point of this is to talk about the efficiency from fuel to motion. The VEHICLE. To make your comparison fair, you would have to look at the efficiency of the ICE vehicle excluding the fuel. So then, how much of the energy from the drive train gets put to motion? Because you don't want to look at the energy input from the engine - you only want to look at the energy once it's been delivered. The EV has an external engine, while the ICE vehicle has an internal one.

Ok - you're not this thick. You are purposesly trolling. Or maybe you just want to feel good about yourself for taking other people's money for your toys.

 

[acptulsa]

we are not talking about any of the stuff you keep bringing up. Forget about WHERE the energy comes from. We are looking at consumption only.

Okay. You're comparing how this eats apples to how that eats oranges. And trying to claim the orange consumer is more efficient because the apple consumer leaves a core, but you're not even interested in knowing if someone peels the oranges before the orange consumer gets them. Fact is, he gets juice.

Why are we doing this again? It doesn't mean anything. It's silly.

 

[GomerPile]

The comparison is completely fair. We have 2 cars about the same size, each given the same size pile of energy. HOW MUCH WORK CAN THEY DO using that energy? This is a very simple question that you won't answer.

The EV does 90 miles more work than the ICE car...right? You have to agree with this...its fact and easily proven.

Do you understand the difference between a motor and a vehicle???? The whole point of this is to talk about the efficiency from fuel to motion. The VEHICLE. To make your comparison fair, you would have to look at the efficiency of the ICE vehicle excluding the fuel. So then, how much of the energy from the drive train gets put to motion? Because you don't want to look at the energy input from the engine - you only want to look at the energy once it's been delivered. The EV has an external engine, while the ICE vehicle has an internal one.

Ok - you're not this thick. You are purposesly trolling. Or maybe you just want to feel good about yourself for taking other people's money for your toys.

 

[CaptUSA]

The comparison is completely fair. We have 2 cars about the same size, each given the same size pile of energy. HOW MUCH WORK CAN THEY DO using that energy? This is a very simple question that you won't answer.

The EV does 90 miles more work than the ICE car...right? You have to agree with this...its fact and easily proven.

Troll.

One vehicle does it's own work, while the other vehicle has its work done elsewhere by something else. But I suppose this is the logic of the EV religion - as long as someone else is doing the work for me, I can ignore it and claim how efficient I am.

 

[acptulsa]

The comparison is completely fair. We have 2 cars about the same size, each given the same size pile of energy.

You don't think it matters how much energy was expended in the process of piling energy into this vehicle?

Are you capable of accepting that some people think it does matter?

But I suppose this is the logic of the EV religion - as long as someone else is doing the work for me, I can ignore it and claim how efficient I am.

It's the dogma of more religions than one. I had a certain Marxist trying to get me to get a thing done and get someone else to pay for it on her orders, so she could virtue signal that she did it. He reminds me of her...

 

[GomerPile]

How the pile of energy arrived is a much more complex subject.

If we can't find common ground that EV's are more efficient (and agree about how much more efficient) then there is no reason to talk about how we get the pile of energy.

There are good arguments to be had about energy distribution.

You don't think it matters how much energy was expended in the process of piling energy into this vehicle?

Are you capable of accepting that some people think it does matter?



It's the dogma of more religions than one. I had a certain Marxist trying to get me to get a thing done and get someone else to pay for it on her orders, so she could virtue signal that she did it. He reminds me of her...

 

[CaptUSA]

It's the dogma of more religions than one. I had a certain Marxist trying to get me to get a thing done and get someone else to pay for it on her orders, so she could virtue signal that she did it. He reminds me of her...

I don't think the similarities are coincidental.

 

[GomerPile]

The energy for both vehicles has to come from somewhere...the tooth fairy did not drop off a jerry can of gasoline. We need first to establish the efficiency difference between EV and ICE.

Troll.

One vehicle does it's own work, while the other vehicle has its work done elsewhere by something else. But I suppose this is the logic of the EV religion - as long as someone else is doing the work for me, I can ignore it and claim how efficient I am.