Estonia the most libertarain country

[farrar]

First of all, thanks for the thread. I'm a big fan of Estonia (yes it isn't perfect but I just love these people's spirit, look into their history). I'm also a big fan of Somaliland, I think the developments there deserve 100 PhD theses in Economics.

About Somalia, first, please share your sources so we can also read them and perhaps bookmark them.

More important, I think you missed the mark when it comes to the courts. The courts system was actually the most ingenious, amazingly anarcho-capitalist development.

The courts were set up because there was a need for courts. Because of the tribal nature of Somali society, when a case was brought before a court, the clans of the claimants (both parties) would give a promise to the court to pay its fees and accept its ruling and carry it out no matter what it may be. The courts slowly starting building its own militia to enforce its rulings.

Note (importantly) that: courts competed in what's closest to a free market. No court had a monopoly over a certain area or town. Similarly, the court's militia wasn't the only one around. This meant that it was in the best interest of each court to be fair, unbiased, and non-violent.

The trouble started with foreign intervention. I don't know if you met any Somali people, but they are extremely dynamic, and an ascendant Somalia would be a threat to many of its neighbors. Besides they sit right there at the entrance of the Red Sea, an area both Israel and the US are interested in for security and economic reasons.

So when the courts (UIC) came close to the capital, which was still under the (internationally recognized) government's control, the "officials" asked for African and US troops to prop them up, by using that boogie-man, Al-Qaeda. It's no surprise that Al-Qaeda only had a major faction within Somalia AFTER this intervention.

Somaliland is the northern part of Somalia and has been safe and peaceful, as virtually all the fighting is taking place in the south.

Thanks for the reply. I should have written down my sources and cited them, but didn't think I was going to return here with a post. If I refind them I'll post them up. The only one I remeber is from wikipedia:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia[/URL]

(Wikipedia makes 4 mistakes per article on average.
Britanica makes 3 mistakes per article on average.
[url]http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html[/URL]
citing wiki reminded me of this study, thought I'd post a link)

I'll find my other sources but I did remember wiki having summarized things very well compared to the others, so if it is off, then all my sources are probably drawing from the same fallacy. Though despite a descrepancy with the court system, I don't think there was really any inconsistancy between what you said or I said besides me having overly generalised it, while what you said had more detail, which I will thank you for because it has given me more questions to look into.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Thanks for the reply. I should have written down my sources and cited them, but didn't think I was going to return here with a post. If I refind them I'll post them up. The only one I remeber is from wikipedia:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia[/URL]

(Wikipedia makes 4 mistakes per article on average.
Britanica makes 3 mistakes per article on average.
[url]http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html[/URL]
citing wiki reminded me of this study, thought I'd post a link)

I'll find my other sources but I did remember wiki having summarized things very well compared to the others, so if it is off, then all my sources are probably drawing from the same fallacy. Though despite a descrepancy with the court system, I don't think there was really any inconsistancy between what you said or I said besides me having overly generalised it, while what you said had more detail, which I will thank you for because it has given me more questions to look into.

You should read Peter Leesons work.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

 

[farrar]

You should read Peter Leesons work.

[url]http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf[/URL]

Thank you very much, I was thinking about going to my library later today too, so I will probably go ahead and put this one under my belt too.

 

[ibaghdadi]

I'll find my other sources but I did remember wiki having summarized things very well compared to the others, so if it is off, then all my sources are probably drawing from the same fallacy. Though despite a descrepancy with the court system, I don't think there was really any inconsistancy between what you said or I said besides me having overly generalised it, while what you said had more detail, which I will thank you for because it has given me more questions to look into.

You should also look into the writings of Michael van Notten, a libertarian who looked deeply into the Somali phenomenon.

It would also be useful to check the Wikipedia article for Kritarchy (Van Notten says Somaliland isn't a Democracy but a Kritarchy, rule by judges).

And once you're done, publish it! Or at least clue us in on your findings, I would love to work on a project like this.

 

[JackieDan]

Estonia is not a Libertarian country, it is most likely socialistic as any European nation.

Let me tell you why..

Estonia receives billion's of Aid from the European Union. It has low-tax policy in order to speed up to challenge countries within the Union. It has led to a massive credit exposure, for that reason their GDP grew an average of 6-7 % annually. However, when the financial crisis began, many investors have drag out from the phone economy. Yet now it is experiencing a huge restructuring with negative growth, budget deficits and banks failing.

Conclusion? The reason they had low taxes, low regulations was due to speed up the economy to fit into European standard, which was mostly driven by credit-not savings-that politicians within Euro member states pushed this scenario forward.

 

[Brian Defferding]

Just wanted to say this thread shed some light on what's going on in Somalia.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

You should read Peter Leesons work.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

This is new to me, also. Thanks. Edit: the author makes the mistake of conflating the State with the government, but it still has intellectual value, and could be expanded upon in the future.

 

[cindy25]

I don't think so; they are the only 1 of the Baltic states to retain conscription, with 94% supporting it.

http://balticreports.com/?p=21416

 

[mtj458]

From what I understand, Estonia has one of the closest things to a major classical liberal political party of any developed country right now.

I took a trip earlier this summer where I visited Norway, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland in that order. Latvia and Estonia are pretty far off from being as wealthy as the other 3, but you can tell a pretty big difference from Latvia and Estonia. I took a bus from Riga to Tallinn and once you cross the border, you'll notice that the countryside of Estonia is filled with much more activity than Latvia. They were both controlled by the Soviet Union until fairly recently but Estonia has had the freer economy and the effect of it is obvious if you travel between the two countries. Estonia might not be a perfect libertarian paradise, but if you look at the progress between them and the other previously socialist controlled countries, you'll notice a huge difference in the progress that they are making.

 

[libertybrewcity]

I am sure Estonia has "freer" markets than most, but they consistently rank VERY low on the World Happiness Index. Take it for what you want..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings

 

[cindy25]

From what I understand, Estonia has one of the closest things to a major classical liberal political party of any developed country right now.

I took a trip earlier this summer where I visited Norway, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland in that order. Latvia and Estonia are pretty far off from being as wealthy as the other 3, but you can tell a pretty big difference from Latvia and Estonia. I took a bus from Riga to Tallinn and once you cross the border, you'll notice that the countryside of Estonia is filled with much more activity than Latvia. They were both controlled by the Soviet Union until fairly recently but Estonia has had the freer economy and the effect of it is obvious if you travel between the two countries. Estonia might not be a perfect libertarian paradise, but if you look at the progress between them and the other previously socialist controlled countries, you'll notice a huge difference in the progress that they are making.

but Latvia, Lithuania and Poland were able to abolish conscription.

Estonia seems to have a Finnish type attitude regarding conscription. Singapore also has a free economy but that is not enough.

 

[james1906]

I am sure Estonia has "freer" markets than most, but they consistently rank VERY low on the World Happiness Index. Take it for what you want..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings

Weird. Lots of communist nations, as well as murder happy Jamaica and Colombia, at the top.

 

[Gaius1981]

The Prime Minister of Estonia is working on cutting the flat tax rate even lower, and wants to replace the conscription army with a volunteer army (according to Wikipedia). Incidentally, his party website certainly has a very libertarian look to it.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

I'd move there if it wasn't surrounded by all that other crap.

You would find that difficult:

http://www.iom.int/jahia/Jahia/estonia

The language also sounds like a bitch to learn.

-t

 

[LibertarianfromGermany]

The Prime Minister of Estonia is working on cutting the flat tax rate even lower, and wants to replace the conscription army with a volunteer army (according to Wikipedia). Incidentally, his party website certainly has a very libertarian look to it.

Indeed, seems like their leading political party is very libertarian (they even call themselves classical liberals and seem to have great respect for Hayek). Here's their issues page in English, sounds very awesome: http://www.reform.ee/en/About-us/Ideology/Ideology

Sadly for them it seems like they're about to join the European Union early next year. On the bright side though, that would mean that I could easily immigrate there in case things get problematic around here.

 

[djdellisanti4]

I kind of like that they call themselves liberals. I wish we could do that in America. The word conservative always has such a negative connotation to me.

 

[farrar]

I am sure Estonia has "freer" markets than most, but they consistently rank VERY low on the World Happiness Index. Take it for what you want..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings

The HPI is based on general utilitarian principles — that most people want to live long and fulfilling lives, and the country which is doing the best is the one that allows its citizens to do so, whilst avoiding infringing on the opportunity of future people and people in other countries to do the same. In effect it operationalises the IUCN's (World Conservation Union) call for a metric capable of measuring 'the production of human well-being (not necessarily material goods) per unit of extraction of or imposition upon nature'.[3] Human well-being is operationalised as Happy Life Years.[4] Extraction of or imposition upon nature is proxied for using the ecological footprint per capita, which attempts to estimate the amount of natural resources required to sustain a given country's lifestyle. A country with a large per capita ecological footprint uses more than its fair share of resources, both by drawing resources from other countries, and also by causing permanent damage to the planet which will impact future generations.[5]
As such, the HPI is not a measure of which are the happiest countries in the world. Countries with relatively high levels of life satisfaction, as measured in surveys, are found from the very top (Colombia in 6th place) to the very bottom (the USA in 114th place) of the rank order. The HPI is best conceived as a measure of the environmental efficiency of supporting well-being in a given country. Such efficiency could emerge in a country with a medium environmental impact (e.g. Costa Rica) and very high well-being, but it could also emerge in a country with only mediocre well-being, but very low environmental impact (e.g. Vietnam).

It is not a measure of happiness but of environmental impact and well being. It also measures what conditions are being left for future generations. The US for instance, is very low as well because we consume such vast amounts of resources around the world having a negative impact on the global environment and our posterity, but we are not last because we have good life expectancy.

Its misleading to call it the World happiness index because it is the Happy Planet index. One implies the peoples happiness, and the reality implies what makes the planet more happy, if it were a person, index.

 

[james1906]

Sadly for them it seems like they're about to join the European Union early next year. On the bright side though, that would mean that I could easily immigrate there in case things get problematic around here.

They're already in the EU and in the Schengen Area. They're joining the euro next year.

 

[libertybrewcity]

It is not a measure of happiness but of environmental impact and well being. It also measures what conditions are being left for future generations. The US for instance, is very low as well because we consume such vast amounts of resources around the world having a negative impact on the global environment and our posterity, but we are not last because we have good life expectancy.

Its misleading to call it the World happiness index because it is the Happy Planet index. One implies the peoples happiness, and the reality implies what makes the planet more happy, if it were a person, index.

Yea, you're sort of right. I would say that well-being plays into happiness, but that is debatable.

 

[LibertarianfromGermany]

They're already in the EU and in the Schengen Area. They're joining the euro next year.

Oh yes, you're right, mixed up two things there.