Egg a day tied to lower risk of heart disease
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lilymc
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You're limiting this to the health aspect of it only. You said that there are "healthy meats" that don't come from factory farms, and I made the point that even the so-called "humane" free-range animals still end up with their throats slit, chopped into pieces. There's nothing humane about violently taking the life of an innocent being who wants to live. So it is a false comparison to compare sentient animals who screamed for their life, to a tomato or carrot.
Listen to yourself. You ignore God's original design as stated in Genesis 1. You ignore God's ultimate will, the restoration of the peace that existed in the beginning, as stated in Isaiah and other prophetic verses. You ignore all the commands to be merciful, gentle, loving, kind and selfless…… and what do you focus on? Some questionable verses that were written about the Israelites at that time, thousands of years ago, verses that are not even applicable today, as we don't sacrifice animals to atone for sin, Jesus is the sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
So you bring up those animal sacrifices as a way to somehow justify eating meat today? Why do you ignore all of these verses:
“For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6
“For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices” Jeremiah 7:22
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire– but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.” Psalm 40:6
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.
Isaiah 1: 11–17
“You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings” Psalm 51:16
"with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.” Hebrews 10:6
“For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices” Jeremiah 7:22
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire– but my ears you have opened — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.” Psalm 40:6
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.
Isaiah 1: 11–17
“You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings” Psalm 51:16
"with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.” Hebrews 10:6
I could go on, but for now I'll leave it at that, and share a link to an article that is a must read.
I think most Christians have the wrong idea about animal sacrifices. Many people seem to think God has no problem with the shedding of innocent blood, and sees nothing wrong with us putting our tastebuds above mercy. I beg to differ. That does not go long with a God of love, mercy, selflessness.
Please take the time to read this article about animal sacrifices. Please read the whole thing: MERCY AND ANIMAL SACRIFICE
I have read and studied the Bible. I even went to a Bible school, through the missions organization I was with. And I continue to learn, I will never stop learning.
I think it is very sad that you justify your fleshly desire for animal corpses by looking at Old Testament verses that were for the Israelites that lived more than 2000 years ago… And even those verses are debatable, as the Bible itself states that the lying scribes changed God's law, in order to do what they wanted to do.
There is historical evidence that the brother of Jesus, as well as several of the disciples were vegetarian. There is good reason to believe that the New Testament contains some interpolations, because there was a big division between two groups, in early Christianity, vegetarians and meat eaters. Since the meat eaters “won,” it wouldn't surprise me at all if certain truths were omitted or downplayed, and other things inserted. You appear to have zero interest or curiosity about that, no desire to dig deeper… That shows me that your mind is closed, that you're putting your stomach above all else – even the search for actual truth… Because truth is not always what we think it is, sometimes you have to dig deeper.
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Swordsmyth
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Genesis 1:21
“And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
King James Version (KJV)
Genesis 1:25
“And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”
King James Version (KJV)
Genesis 1:31
“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
King James Version (KJV)
lilymc
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God did not create predators. In the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, both humans and animals were herbivores. Things like death, violence, animals killing animals and all that didn't happen until after the fall, when everything changed. You may not be a Christian, but just to make this perfectly clear, I'll post the verse:
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1: 29-30
lilymc
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I like how you failed to mention that in the beginning, both humans and animals were herbivores. Danke specifically asked why God created predators, the correct answer was God did not create predators. That came after the fall, as a result of everything changing in the world. There is also a belief that the fallen angels, as mentioned in Genesis 6, intermingled not only with humans but with the animals, and produced certain types of animals that did not exist in the very beginning. Whether that is true or not, one thing is for sure… Genesis 1:30 clearly states that even the animals were herbivores in the beginning.
In the end, it will go back to that:
The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11: 6–9
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11: 6–9
Swordsmyth
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GOD knew what he prepared them to eat after the fall, cats can't even get nutrition out of plants in the present state of the world, when GOD changes things back the lion shall lie down with the lamb, until then the lion will eat the lamb and that is how GOD created the lion to be in this fallen world.
lilymc
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It almost sounds like you're saying God is OK with this fallen world. I disagree. Yes, we live in a fallen world, but as Christians, we are supposed to want and aim for God's perfect will, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus taught us to pray for that.
"This, then, is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’"
Matthew 6: 9-13
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’"
Matthew 6: 9-13
I believe that as we are getting closer to the last days, God has been calling many of his people to a kinder, gentler plant-based diet, as it was in the very beginning. For me, it was definitely something that I felt called to do… And I've heard the same thing from other Christian vegans. I personally believe that an awakening is happening, worldwide. It is growing in a phenomenal way, and I believe without a doubt that it is the future. I believe that because it is prophesied, and because I can see it happening with my own eyes.
Swordsmyth
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GOD knew the fall would come and he designed his creatures to deal with it, when his kingdom comes we won't need meat for food or it will be created without killing animals like the fish Christ fed the multitudes.
William Tell
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I'm not ignoring God's commands to be merciful. I just don't think that means being vegan. You kill cockroaches and flies and I doubt you would mind killing mice but freak out if someone kills anything cute. God forbade murder, he never forbade killing animals.
I tried focusing on the verses that specifically said what Jesus ate. As best I can understand your logic you think those were either forgeries or Jesus is not compassionate and ate a demonic inspired diet. Maybe there's a third option I can't see.
He ate flesh after he rose from the dead. It's right there in your bible.
Those are all good verses, and they have nothing to do with a vegan diet. They have to do with following God and his law with all your heart rather than focusing on ceremonies and buying your way into heaven.
So basically the Old Testament law was a mind game, and when God said you must sacrifice an animal he actually wanted them to disobey him? Wow. The author also fails to point how Jesus commanded his disciples to go prepare the Passover..
I think it's very sad that you make it sound like eating a traditional diet is on the same level as sleeping around. God gave us the 'fleshly' desire to want a nutritious meal. I feel no guilt or shame over what I eat, and at least I don't believe I'm holier than you are based on my diet. That's great that you studied the Bible, but if you think the verses on a little thing like meat might be a demonic load of crap then what's the point? What parts can we trust? That's my whole problem with your approach to it. If meat eating is enshrined in the Bible as part of an evil conspiracy than who's to say John 3:16 is the word of God either? Or for that matter what about the one verse in Genesis you cling to? That could easily be a forgery if you accept the premise that the Bible has been altered
I'll take your historical evidence of Jesus' brother, and raise you a verse that clearly says Jesus ate fish.
No. I believe the truth is in God's word, the Holy Bible. I am not interested in doctrines that require me throwing out huge chunks of the Bible in order for me to accept them. If you want to know what God thinks of animals and diet just read the Bible. It's all in there, you will find that veganism is totally fine for you if that's what you want.
You won't find where it is permitted for you to forbid others from eating meat, because there's a verse that specifically warns that is wrong.
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lilymc
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So the only beings that matter are human beings? Mercy should not apply to animals, only humans? Do you have a dog or cat? Would you abuse your dog, treat him like garbage or as a mere commodity, inflicting pain and torture upon him? Why not, if mercy only applies to human beings? Do you realize that pigs are just as smart or smarter than dogs? Please explain the logic behind loving and cherishing dogs, while terrorizing / torturing pigs. Why, because one tastes better than the other?
You're entitled to your opinion, but the Bible clearly states that God's mercy extends to ALL his creation. (Psalm 145:9) If God has mercy and love toward all his creation, why should we not?
As for your comment about insects or mice, first of all, don't assume that I have the same views as all vegans. As a Christian, my views differ in a few areas from secular vegans. I have never claimed that humans and animals are on the same level, and I have never claimed that all animals are on the same level. Clearly, there are different levels of sentience, so you can't exactly compare an intelligent animal like a pig, to a fly or cockroach. Secondly, I never claimed that it is always wrong to kill an animal. If an animal could hurt someone or cause someone to be sick and that animal is invading one's house, that is an entirely different situation than callously killing an innocent, sentient, intelligent animal, for no reason other than to satisfy your tastebuds.
There is only one verse that seems to say that Jesus ate meat (Fish.) Let’s take a look at it.
Interestingly, many of the modern Bible versions changed that verse and omitted part of it. Since the King James version is more accurate than many of the modern versions, let's look at that:
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? [remember that meat in those days simply meant food]
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:41-43
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:41-43
Assuming this verse is not a forgery, verse 43 says he ate "it" but it doesn't say he ate both, so there are a few possibilities here. He could have eaten the honeycomb and not the fish. That is what many vegetarians believe, and interestingly that could be a fulfillment of the prophecy, in Isaiah 7:15.
He could have eaten both, but the verse does not actually say that.
Other people believe this verse was an interpolation, and there are a number of reasons for that, but again, I'm not going to get into all this in detail right now.
Since Jesus clearly had a heart for God's original design, and in many cases set the religious Jews of that time straight in regard to God's original design/intent, I personally do not believe that he ate meat, but I'm not going to try to convince you of that right here and now. When I have done more study on all of this, I am planning to prepare a video or blog post on this topic, there are certain books I want to read on this, from people who have done extensive research on this topic.
I never said that those verses have to do with a vegan diet. I shared those because you seem to be hinging your entire meat eating position on animal sacrifices (and the verse about Jesus eating fish) which is absurd, since the sacrifice verses were for a specific group of people during a specific time, and even for them (assuming those verses are legit) the purpose of the sacrifices was not about meat eating. So to use those verses as a justification for meat eating is ironic in light of what you just said… Because just as God did not like people using animal sacrifices in an empty way, without a contrite and repentant heart… I think it's safe to say that God does not like people using references to animal sacrifices as a way to justify satisfying our tastebuds, while simultaneously ignoring His original design/intent, His ultimate will, and all the verses about mercy.
No, but we know that God sometimes tests us to reveal what is in our hearts. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, did God actually want Isaac to die? This topic is much bigger and deeper than you seem to think it is. One thing is for sure, Jesus clearly stated that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.… something you continually ignore. We have the ability to plead for mercy for those who are under us and in our charge. Just as Jesus did on the cross (“Father forgive them") and Moses did for the Israelites after the golden calf worship. Obviously the Israelites didn't do that, and I wonder why? Gee, could it be that they simply wanted to feast on the dead animals, and couldn't care less about being repentant or anything else?
I still have a ton of studying to do on this topic, as I keep telling you, whole books have been written about this, so I have not concluded anything just yet, I am just bringing up the different views.
Regarding the passover, no mention was made of the disciples killing or eating a lamb. Jesus was the lamb. Only bread and wine were mentioned at the meal, which is how the Nazarene sect in Jesus' time celebrated passover.
I didn't say that it was on the same level as sleeping around, once again you're putting words in my mouth. I think that most people who eat meat are completely oblivious to what they're actually doing… They don't realize what the animals went through, how they scream for the life, how they are treated like garbage. Most people love animals, so when they find out what is really going on, they are horrified. My point was that God tolerates certain things in this fallen world that were never part of his original design. That is undeniable.
As for the theory that certain passages in the Bible were inserted, I have not yet concluded that, as I keep saying, I am still studying and looking into all of this.
I went over this one already.
No, I don't think you do. You handpick the verses you want to focus on, while ignoring many, many others. You don't look at the big picture, all of your focus and attention is on this particular time, the fallen world. But I don't want to continue to tell you stuff like that, because that is not my intention here. One day the world will go back to the peace, nonviolence and non-meat eating that existed in the garden – in God's original design. Since you will be vegetarian (if not vegan) one day… I hope that you will not continue to close yourself off to this. More and more Christians are going vegan every day… And it will continue that way, as it is the future.
Swordsmyth
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Lily you are the one who handpicks verses and ignores others, I already quoted these earlier in the thread:
Luke 22
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
The passover's central dish was a lamb, note that killing it is specifically mentioned and Christ says he will eat a passover fullfillment IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. (presumably in heaven he will create the meat out of thin air as he did the fish when feeding the multitudes but he didn't do that here)
John 21
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
Here we have Christ helping the Apostles to kill fish and then cooking some and feeding them to the Apostles.
Acts 11
4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
Here we have Peter being commanded to slay and eat animals in a vision from heaven, if it wasn't proper to do so GOD would have made his point a different way.
lilymc
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[MENTION=65299]Swordsmyth[/MENTION] you have a habit of ignoring pretty much everything I post, and then expecting me to address the things you bring up. That's not how I debate, you have to address my points if you want me to address yours.
Also, you seem to be unaware that there were many vegetarian believers at that time, and that there was a big division in early Christianity, between the vegetarians and the meat eaters. There are numerous ancient writings that tell a different story, in regard to meat eating in those days. There are ancient writings that state that Jesus condemned the eating of meat and sought to bring an end to animal sacrifices. Roman culture was pro meat-eating, so the Roman translators of the Bible could very well have left out certain things. When you take that into consideration, along with the fact that there is compelling evidence that James and the number of the disciples were vegetarian… one who genuinely cares about truth would want to look into this more. But like many meat eating Christians, you don't seem to have much interest in digging into the complicated history here. People with a heart for truth, compassion and God's original design will take the time to do the research, and trust their God-given intuition, as well as the truth that God does not change. And it is undeniable that God's perfect will and original design is peace, nonviolence, and a plant-based diet.
Also, you seem to be unaware that there were many vegetarian believers at that time, and that there was a big division in early Christianity, between the vegetarians and the meat eaters. There are numerous ancient writings that tell a different story, in regard to meat eating in those days. There are ancient writings that state that Jesus condemned the eating of meat and sought to bring an end to animal sacrifices. Roman culture was pro meat-eating, so the Roman translators of the Bible could very well have left out certain things. When you take that into consideration, along with the fact that there is compelling evidence that James and the number of the disciples were vegetarian… one who genuinely cares about truth would want to look into this more. But like many meat eating Christians, you don't seem to have much interest in digging into the complicated history here. People with a heart for truth, compassion and God's original design will take the time to do the research, and trust their God-given intuition, as well as the truth that God does not change. And it is undeniable that God's perfect will and original design is peace, nonviolence, and a plant-based diet.
Swordsmyth
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I have responded to everything you said in earlier posts but you said to William that only the one verse had Christ eating meat and you ignored the verses I pointed out while accusing William of cherry picking verses.
lilymc
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It doesn't say that Jesus ate the Passover lamb. Jesus WAS the Passover lamb! Even meat eating scholars will tell you that it is debatable, for a number of reasons. I'm not going to do all the research for you, if you genuinely care about truth, do the research yourself.
Swordsmyth
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I disagree but you are still ignoring the other verses.
Lets just look at the most indisputable passage:
John 21
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
Here we have Christ helping the Apostles to kill fish and then cooking some and feeding them to the Apostles.
Ender
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All life is valuable and has intelligence.
And that includes not only animals, but fruits, vegetables, herbs, as well as snakes, lizards, rodents, and insects. Spiders are some of the most intelligent creatures on the planet but most who scream about protecting animals, and hate meat eaters, have no problem killing a spider just because it's there.
And please realize that I am an avid animal lover and believe in taking care of the planet. What is necessary is to be grateful for ALL life that has been sacrificed for one's well being, whether it is a cow or an apple- they are both intelligent and deserve the best of care.
And that includes not only animals, but fruits, vegetables, herbs, as well as snakes, lizards, rodents, and insects. Spiders are some of the most intelligent creatures on the planet but most who scream about protecting animals, and hate meat eaters, have no problem killing a spider just because it's there.
And please realize that I am an avid animal lover and believe in taking care of the planet. What is necessary is to be grateful for ALL life that has been sacrificed for one's well being, whether it is a cow or an apple- they are both intelligent and deserve the best of care.
Ender
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Not particularly true. The body has to have protein and carbs can destroy certain blood types.
People are NOT fat from meats & fats- the irony is that you can not lose weight w/o fat.
Carbs & refined sugar are the biggest contributors to poor health - and most Americans over indulge in these- not meats.
The Keto diet is the healthiest diet around for both the body and the mind.
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