Does the second amendment apply to machine guns, grenades, and other heavy equipment?

We have the right to bear arms. I understand the argument for carrying shotguns and hand guns. I am wondering what the view is towards carrying machine guns or guns that can quickly kill a group of people Rambo style.

Red alert! Red alert! Credibility FAIL!

Do as you will, of course, but I would respectfully recommend you learn more rational, adult, and clued-in modes of expressing such questions. Your words read as if they issued from the cavernous black assholes of Whoopee Goldberg, Piers Morgan, and that imbecile sportscaster.

Do these types of guns still apply under the second amendment?

Yes. Unequivocally.

Is there a line drawn in what the military can use and what civilians can?

No. The more salient question you should have asked was whether there was any real difference between military personnel and civilian. The answer is the same. We have only people and all people hold equal claims to life, thereby imbuing them with equal rights. It therefore follows that neither military nor civilian hold rights the one over the other, though it might be argued that civilians hold ultimate command authority over military.

I am thinking about the thought of a civilian carrying grenades,

Been there. Done that.

I think it will be difficult to argue that a civilian can walk around with a bazooka or a machine gun.

And I think is will be difficult to argue that a civilian cannot walk around with a bazooka or machine gun.

So tell me, whose opinion here is to be taken as representing the universally authoritative truth for all living humanity?
 
Do as you will, of course, but I would respectfully recommend you learn more rational, adult, and clued-in modes of expressing such questions. Your words read as if they issued from the cavernous black assholes of Whoopee Goldberg, Piers Morgan, and that imbecile sportscaster.


This^^^^^^^^ + rep.
 
I think it will be difficult to argue that a civilian can walk around with a bazooka or a machine gun.

It would indeed be difficult, and most likely totally unnecessary. Unless defending ones self from a tyranical government.

An absence of necessity does not debar one from acting. It is not necessary for me to own a Pitts S4 aerobatic aircraft. It is not necessary for me to own a Bugatti Veyron. It is not necessary for me to have a 300' motor yacht. There are many things in life that are not necessary, yet I hear nobody shrieking to have such things taken away from me or to ban my acquiring them.

I see people doing unnecessary things every single day, yet I have never once thought to myself that they should be debarred possession of this or that or the right to take such things into public. Granted, were I to see someone walking down the street with am M60 I would consider it well out of the ordinary. Rather than freak out, however, I would be most likely to strike up a conversation with such a person because you never know when a friendly greeting might lead to some range time. M60 is a sweet gun to shoot. :)
 
An absence of necessity does not debar one from acting. It is not necessary for me to own a Pitts S4 aerobatic aircraft. It is not necessary for me to own a Bugatti Veyron. It is not necessary for me to have a 300' motor yacht. There are many things in life that are not necessary, yet I hear nobody shrieking to have such things taken away from me or to ban my acquiring them.

I see people doing unnecessary things every single day, yet I have never once thought to myself that they should be debarred possession of this or that or the right to take such things into public. Granted, were I to see someone walking down the street with am M60 I would consider it well out of the ordinary. Rather than freak out, however, I would be most likely to strike up a conversation with such a person because you never know when a friendly greeting might lead to some range time. M60 is a sweet gun to shoot. :)

It would probably be a good idea to be on friendly terms. :)

As to your post, I wasn't arguing for restrictions.
 
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You shouldn't own cluster bombs, chemical weapons or land-mines.

Proof by assertion.

FAIL.

Neither should the military.

At least you are consistent, which is good.

You probably shouldn't own hollow points either.

FAIL ibid.

Who says? Upon what do you base this assertion?

The military isn't allowed them.

Irrelevant. Who disallows them? By what authority are they disallowed?

If there was a civil war the use of the above are war crimes. and pretty inhumane.

I see... as if there were humane ways of committing mass, mechanized murder. I suggest you may need to rethink this position because it makes no rational sense.

Don't know why you would want to own a nuke. They have serious upkeep and give off hard radiation.

They most certainly do not. Hard gamma emitters are VERY undesirable for nuclear weapons for any of several reasons. For one, a strong gamma scatter is like a beacon to the universe saying, "here I am!" Readily detected and triangulated. Hard gamma emitters wreak utter havoc with electronics within the bomb and effectively destroy the lensing charges. The implosion wave must be extremely symmetrical. The smallest variations will prevent implosion of the peanut and the device will fail to light. One of the "bad" aspects of nuclear weapons is that they are extremely difficult to detect precisely because of the long half-life of the materials used in them. The reason Pu239 and similar materials are dangerous is NOT the radiation, but the chemical toxicity of the metals themselves. I can walk around with a handful of uranium and suffer no ill effects from radiation. A few atoms of Pu in my lungs, however, places me at increased cancer risk because of the heavy metal toxicity. Radiation has nothing to do with health concerns there. There is, in fact, a phenomenon called "hormesis" wherein exposure to increased dosages of radiation actually enhance health. T

People are running shit-scared and sheet-white at the thought of exposure to radiation. Newsflash: we are awash in it and have been since the dawn of time. It is everywhere. You have eaten uranium and other radio-emitters. You do so every single day in all the foods you consume and they are NOT fallout artifacts.... well, some of them may be, but that is nothing compared with the amounts that occur naturally.

The last few are going to be much more handy in a war on the government than an AR-15.

Based on what?

If anything one of the most important 2nd Amendment over-reaches is the DMCA. The ability to hack police and other government communication network to seek information, to confuse and to ambush, would be one of the most important tools in a modern revolutionary war.

A modern revolutionary war would be one on infrastructure. Most military units in the US can't scratch their arse right now without a 1000 gallons of fuel and a satellite uplink.

Agreed. That which makes our armed forces so formidable also constitutes its greatest weakness. While I respect the abilities of these soldiers, most are WAY too dependent upon high tech this and that. How many soldiers know how to navigate using dead-reckoning? I doubt the numbers top more than 1%. GPS is everywhere so why bother with all that old-fashioned stuff? Indeed.
 
...I'm talking about cannon, and other heavy weapons. You have to admit, there were armories back then since as you said, the British tried to seize them. It would seem by the time the British were able to do so, those weapons would have already been distributed amongst the militia.

Keeping all of the heavy weapons in one central location would be silly anyway. There would have to be many armories. Some would probably be in the possession of militia members at various locations unknown to the enemy.

Bad gamble to make, IMO. ALWAYS assume your enemy is twelve steps ahead of you, smarter than you, more determined than you, better trained, more resourceful, and so on. It is precisely the crew-serviced weapons I would be looking to see distributed as widely and kept as latent as possible.
 
Is if difficult to argue that anybody at all, including the military, should ever have those weapons? Because if it's ever right for anyone, then you can't say it's wrong for someone just because they're a civilian.

Precisely.

Military = civilian = military = civilian = military = civilian...

"Military", "civilian", and all other such terms denote NO fundamental difference. The underlying, non-abstract element in all cases is a lump of flesh and bone. There is no functional difference between any two arbitrarily chosen individuals. The labels one affixes upon a given individual changes NOTHING about their fundamental makeup. The only qualified changes that result are those within people's skulls.

If I cannot possess field artillery or nukes in principle, then neither can the military because in the relevant aspects there is no fundamental difference between one and the other. All differences are conceptual in nature.
 
Who says? Upon what do you base this assertion?

These restrictions are merely Geneva conventions. The same that stop you shooting up hospitals and ambulances. Along with prisoner of war protections.

Keeping some sort of rules of war tries to stop it becoming completely out of control. If you think limitations on what counts as just war are superfluous then you are working from a really worrisome baseline.

Even in World War 2 both sides held off on deploying chemical weapons despite both possessing them.

Your position ends up very quickly endorsing rape as a useful mechanism of war.

If the militaries of the world have agreed that certain weapons should be used even in the case of total war, and that their use should be punishable by death, then what possible use could you have for them? These weapons are so disagreeable to humanity that military forces do not use them.

You can own nukes, I don't have a problem with that. The are simply exceptionally expensive to maintain and would be difficult to deploy in a revolutionary war without ludicrous collateral damage.

On that topic I highly recommend the book Snowcrash by Neal Stephenson. It explores a highly anarchistic society. One of the characters keeps a nuclear warhead in his motorcycle sidecar. It is linked to a deadman switch that detects if he has been killed. Basically M.A.D. for an individual.

Any-ways, in the event of having to fight your government do you really feel the need to use weapons that are banned because they have a strong tendency to kill innocent non-combatants, even years after you have successfully overthrown the government? Where does this urge come from?
 
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"Military", "civilian", and all other such terms denote NO fundamental difference.

In premise I agree with this statement, in reality military personnel, especially those in command positions, are by and large order followers.

Leading of course to the question of whos orders?

Politicians.....

This in and of itself is the basis of a logical argument for citizens to be better armed that the military..
 
These restrictions are merely Geneva conventions. The same that stop you shooting up hospitals and ambulances. Along with prisoner of war protections.

I figured you would cite Geneva Convention. GC is BULLSHIT. Why? Because it is the lamest attempt to paint a mask of civility upon the face of the most viciously barbaric beast in the world: war. What those in power were really trying to do was hedge their bets in every way. The third and fourth conventions were adopted in the wake of the the two great mechanized wars and I suspect the elite shit their pants, especially in the wake of WWI because nobody knew what to expect. Had the wars become "too horrific" there may have resulted push-back by the mundanes. In those days there was still enough sense of moral rectitude in people where I an certain that those in power felt it prudent to at least assume the appearance of "caring" for combatants, which of course was the furthest thing from the truth.

The third and fourth GCs are pure window dressing and IMO should be disregarded formally as well as otherwise. Why? Because if we are going to engage in this insanity, I fully support that it be as witheringly brutal and horrifying as possible. I fully encourage the bombing of cities en masse and the endless slaughter of every innocent. Why? Because when war shows it it true face people will lose their appetites for it. Let is be gory and brutal and ugly that people are set to shrieking in fathomless anguish. Let them see what war REALLY means, and afford them not the sanitized version with it pretensions of base civility because all that succeeds in doing is to render it tolerable - the one thing it should NEVER be.

Give people bellies full of real horror and let us see how long they tolerate their illustrious leaders' prosecution of such mindless butchery.

Keeping some sort of rules of war tries to stop it becoming completely out of control.

Completely out of control is EXACTLY what the world needs so people get a fucking clue about what it is they are really tolerating and in many cases begging for.

If you think limitations on what counts as just war are superfluous then you are working from a really worrisome baseline.

Worry all you like. So long as war remains tolerable through nominal sanitizing it will remain tolerated. FAIL. Why do you think Americans have put up with this shit for 11 years? We've MURDERED how many hundreds of thousands of people? Why have bee put up with it? Because it's like a video game and the coverage is tightly controlled and the average American moron thinks it is all OK because we're killing sand-******s. You and others really do need to stop the world and silence the noise in your heads and take a look at what it is we are REALLY doing, sans all labels. A dead or maimed child is a dead or maimed child regardless where they live or how they look. We have been sold a bill of goods as rotten as the days are long at the poles.

Even in World War 2 both sides held off on deploying chemical weapons despite both possessing them.

And had they used them, perhaps the horror of the common man would have prompted him to stand up and say "no more" rather than just going back to their stupid lives, content to believe the lies and bullshit about how just it all was. Jesus... I can barely believe how it is that people cannot see the ways in which they have been played like cheap fiddles.

Your position ends up very quickly endorsing rape as a useful mechanism of war.

If you're going to war, then war. Don't pussy-foot around. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to endeavor to kill an enemy, then by god go out and fucking kill them and stop screwing around. This was one thing I could respect about the Japanese. At least they made war honest in its face to the world rather than trying to make it look as it were something noble. War should never be pretty. Let it's specter be such that any attempt to embroil the people in it results in the politicians being publicly executed in brutal fashion and broadcast to the four corners. War is MURDER and should be treated as such but so many people are so hopelessly stupid that the only thing that will bring them to sense is for the experience of war to be stripped of everything that such imbeciles think is attractive and virtuous.

Any-ways, in the event of having to fight your government do you really feel the need to use weapons that are banned because they have a strong tendency to kill innocent non-combatants, even years after you have successfully overthrown the government? Where does this urge come from?

Are you mad? I've not stated such a thing. Buy a clue and try some honesty. Fucking hell.

You are gone off the rails here. You made a statement about "hollow points" and that the military cannot have them. I challenged you on it and you have failed to address my challenge. Instead, you went off on tangents. Try focusing.
 
Um, even many opponents of the 2nd Amendment admit that it covers the weapons that existed when it was written (see: Piers Morgan blathering about muskets) - point being that grenades, rockets and bombs of all sorts were common when the 2nd Amendment was written and are definitely covered by it. Hell, there were privately owned warships back then that could flatten entire towns and kill thousands in a short span of time using nasty things such as grapeshot and explosive shells.

I don't agree. Opponents of the second amendment would try to argue that it was intended to only arm the militia.
 
Red alert! Red alert! Credibility FAIL!

Do as you will, of course, but I would respectfully recommend you learn more rational, adult, and clued-in modes of expressing such questions. Your words read as if they issued from the cavernous black assholes of Whoopee Goldberg, Piers Morgan, and that imbecile sportscaster.




Yes. Unequivocally.



No. The more salient question you should have asked was whether there was any real difference between military personnel and civilian. The answer is the same. We have only people and all people hold equal claims to life, thereby imbuing them with equal rights. It therefore follows that neither military nor civilian hold rights the one over the other, though it might be argued that civilians hold ultimate command authority over military.



Been there. Done that.



And I think is will be difficult to argue that a civilian cannot walk around with a bazooka or machine gun.

So tell me, whose opinion here is to be taken as representing the universally authoritative truth for all living humanity?


You call me to be rational and more adult with a comment like that? The credibility fail lies with you. I don't take you seriously at all. How old are you, 12?
 
The funny thing about this is: Who financed the development of machine guns? And for what reason? Who financed the development of nuclear weapons? Reason, please?

So the state(s) should have sole ownership of these weapons when THEY THEMSELVES DEVELOPED with the sole objective of killing as many people, innocent or otherwise, as possible as quickly as possible?

The people, if they were as strong as the state, would destroy nuclear weapons of their own volition/self interest. So I believe.

The Geneva Conventions? What a crock of shit. Its okay to blow someones head off, as long as you don't do it with a .50cal browning.

Want war, then war. Amen to that osan.
 
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You call me to be rational and more adult with a comment like that? The credibility fail lies with you. I don't take you seriously at all. How old are you, 12?

Why are you still here? I don't think that more than maybe one person here agrees with you, and it should be obvious to even the densest person by now you're not going to convince the rest of of us. So why do you persist?
 
Why are you still here? I don't think that more than maybe one person here agrees with you, and it should be obvious to even the densest person by now you're not going to convince the rest of of us. So why do you persist?

Why are you in my thread? It's called having a discussion. You are not a very good libertarian when you want people to leave who have different views. One of the effects of a free society is that not everyone is going to agree.
 
Why are you in my thread? It's called having a discussion. You are not a very good libertarian when you want people to leave who have different views. One of the effects of a free society is that not everyone is going to agree.

You make a good point about having a discussion, and you are correct as you did start this thread. However, your continual insistence that certain weapons are better off left to some controlling authority is not going to go unchallenged nor will you gain anything by posting such idea's here.

The state has proven beyond a doubt they are not anymore trustworthy with such weapons. They will use them when and where they want, with no penalty other than the deaths of the unfortunates in their path.
 
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