Does America need a standing army?

Should the US government have a standing army?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 35.2%
  • No

    Votes: 116 64.8%

  • Total voters
    179
Actually, the Air Force is the Army. We were called the "Army Air Corps". We branched out from the U.S. Army in 1947. So for the purposes of the Constitution, the Air Force is still the "Army". In my opinion, we should still be under the Department of the Army just like the Marine Corps is under the Department of the Navy... but oh well.

Your history is certainly correct but do you agree with me that if we were to go back to a constitutionally sized army it would make sense to lump the air force in with the navy allowing it to constitutionally be maintained at the size necessary to defend our airspace from sudden attack even in times of peace?
 
We need a standing army. And airforce. While I certainly understand the dangers of a standing army, we live in a world where another country could launch and attack in a matter of hours.

Slutter McGee

It's not the other countries we're worried about.

And what kind of attack launched in a matter of hours do you have in mind?

That's just it. The proponents of a standing army in this thread will never outline an actual threat because they know anything they could come up with wouldn't stand up to real analysis.

But for the fun of it, let's do an analysis anyway. The U.S. currently has the best equipped and most battle hardened military in the world (although not the largest as someone else pointed out). Currently the only types of attacks we can launch in a "matter of hours" are 1) missile bombardment 2) air bombardment 3) sea based bombardment (missile, air or gun) or 4) special forces insertion. That's it. Any type of sustained land or ground offensive requires weeks if not months to put together. And guess what? A large standing army is not the right tool to protect against any of those threats. Missile bombardment? You just need enough men to man and support the anti missile batteries. Everybody else is superfluous. Air bombardment? You need air superiority and/or good SAMs and possibly stealth defeating radar (since other countries have stealth fighters now). Sea based bombardment? That's what your navy is for. And mainly you need subs and antisub systems. Surface ships are sitting ducks to today's antiship missiles. Special forces? Stopping attacks from insertions of special forces is a job of good counter intelligence. Having 1.5 million troops on the ground wouldn't stop 100 Spentnaz from running around blowing up soft targets, unless the 1.5 million ground troops were used to institute a total police state. And then it still wouldn't stop everything.

And what countries do the standing army advocates see trying to invade us? China? They don't need to invade us if destroying us was their aim. They could just stop buying our debt. But they won't because they need us to buy their junk. The only thing that could start a war with China is if we attacked Iran or if we tried to keep China from taking Taiwan. Russia? Don't make me laugh! They've had their Afghanistan and they've seen Red Dawn. Iran? All Iran wants is to be left alone. Their previous president Mohammed Khatami said as much in a back channel communication to Bush. He offered to give in to all U.S. demands if we just promised not to attack Iran. He was rebuffed. So they put in "crazy man" Amadenijad since it was clear we wouldn't listen to reason. Really no country has the means to sustain an invasion against the U.S. and few have the desire.
 
Your history is certainly correct but do you agree with me that if we were to go back to a constitutionally sized army it would make sense to lump the air force in with the navy allowing it to constitutionally be maintained at the size necessary to defend our airspace from sudden attack even in times of peace?

That is my wish. Along with a Militia modeled Civil Air Patrol.
 
It all depends on what you consider a standing army. I think that we should have a few thousand troops ready to go just in case. But not ANYTHING near the size of what we have now. If we are attacked, they could help train volunteers, and hold off the enemy long enough for the rest of the country to organize.
 
I have all your answers. ;)

Like I say, let’s “stand” the 1.5 million troops all around our borders; one troop every 70 yards. We could call it 24/7 360-degree guard duty.

hah. you know, it's funny. when i first brought up actual real world numbers, i started to do the math for 'hands across america' too, but decided not to post it because it would make the post too long. but i'm glad you did.

i'm in absolute awe that there are people who actually fear a full land invasion of the United States.
 
I am for a sitting army.... the hurry up and wait kind. The deer hunters alone in many states are the second largest army in the world.

Rev9
 
Against my better judgment, I'll dive in here. The OP would be very comfortable with A. T. Mahan's The Influence of Sea Power Upon History (The case for why the US needs a strong Navy and not much of an Army).

Opinion is yes there needs to be a regular Army (with a different focus), an Army Reserve, and disbanding the National Guard in favor of the Militia.

Reason behind my opinion is the following:

Regular Army should be a General Staff, Training, and maintaining full strength Brigade, Division, Corps, and Army headquarters (these also serve as the training cadre for the Militia), and a few full strength units based on threat analysis, and the need to give NCOs and officers actual experience in operating units - this experience is needed to maintain a good training program.

The Militia is intended to be the primary building blocks for the National Army, should one be needed. One of the big problems in a militia structure is the quality of the unit, which determines the training time required to make the unit combat effective. You can draw experienced officers and NCOs into the militia units from former active duty people, you increase the ability of the militia unit, and shorten the training time required on call up. You can relatively quickly build support units if the equipment is on hand. Driving a military truck is not much different than any other truck, medical skills readily transfer to a military application, and the same for engineering and other support tasks. The combat arms skills are critical to military success, and this requires study and training is those operations, and some experience in order for leaders to make sound decisions. Computer simulations are not the same as actually doing it with a unit. Computers are bad at replicating the "friction" of war.

The other factor is the expense of equipping a soldier - in inflation constant 2010 dollars, is cost about $1500 to equip a WWII infantryman. Today's cost is about $15,000 because we want to put night vision, body armor, and communications in the hands of every infantryman in order to maintain absolute superiority over any possible opponent, which saves as many lives of our fellow citizens as possible (competent commanders being the other great life saver). I can train an infantryman in 30 days, but I can't train platoon leaders, company commanders, and battalion commanders that are really good, without a year for a platoon leader, a couple of years for a company commander, and a good four years minimum for a battalion commander. Bad company and battalion commanders caused a good bit of our loss in WWII.
 
Your history is certainly correct but do you agree with me that if we were to go back to a constitutionally sized army it would make sense to lump the air force in with the navy allowing it to constitutionally be maintained at the size necessary to defend our airspace from sudden attack even in times of peace?

Good point... yeah, it does make since.
 
Good point... yeah, it does make since.
You could make the point that in a purely defensive scenario, you need an Air Force, and not a Navy. The main function of the Navy is guarding the "sea lanes" to where the war is.
 
You could make the point that in a purely defensive scenario, you need an Air Force, and not a Navy. The main function of the Navy is guarding the "sea lanes" to where the war is.

Hmm... interesting. What about merging the Navy with the Coast Guard in order to protect the coast lines?
 
Hmm... interesting. What about merging the Navy with the Coast Guard in order to protect the coast lines?

Brown water is the role of a Coast Guard (part of the Navy Department in wartime), while the Navy is "blue water" to defeat other navies, and power projection. If you get out of the power projection business, you don't need aircraft carriers and much of the surface fleet - the role becomes protect US shipping, which is mostly reflagged anyway.

Aircraft w/ missiles and bombs do a better job of sinking ships than other ships do.
 
to continually misrepresent the opinions of others as often as you do is both disrespectful and intellectually dishonest.

And I'm still waiting for an answer of any sort to my posts -- ?

I put you on my ignore list, and I am not going to answer your posts from now on. I've kept this focused on the issues all along. I've never personally attacked anyone on these forums. You feel the need to make this personal, and I feel the need to ignore you.
 
@jmdrake-I support following the Swiss model as far as non intervention overseas. I think they've shown that by staying out of the world's affairs, they've created less enemies and haven't been attacked the way that we have. But I think there's just one particular area where we disagree. I do not want the United States to become just another average country like Switzerland. I believe in American exceptionalism. I believe that the United States is the greatest country on earth, and I believe that we should remain superior to all other countries both in terms of our military and in terms of our economy. I don't agree with the neo-cons that we should actually "spread our goodness around the world." I think that intervention overseas is counter productive and makes us less safe here at home. But there's no way in the world I'm going to support a policy that would turn the United States into just another average country.
 
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@jmdrake-I support following the Swiss model as far as non intervention overseas. I think they've shown that by staying out of the world's affairs, they've created less enemies and haven't been attacked the way that we have. But I think there's just one particular area where we disagree. I do not want the United States to become just another average country like Sweden. I believe in American exceptionalism. I believe that the United States is the greatest country on earth, and I believe that we should remain superior to all other countries both in terms of our military and in terms of our economy. I don't agree with the neo-cons that we should actually "spread our goodness around the world. I think that intervention overseas is counter productive and makes us less safe here at home. But there's no way in the world I'm going to support a policy that would turn the United States into just another average country.

Switzerland isn't Sweden.

There isn't nothing inherently great about America. Our actions determine our standing. By this proper standard, we have been abysmal.

Our country was great before we were imperialistic.

Our country will be great again if we scale down the military once more.
 
I support cutting spending across the board, including the Pentagon's budget. But I just support cutting the one third of the Pentagon's budget that it spends on foreign intervention. You don't see very many conservative Republicans like myself who advocate bringing all of our troops home from around the world.

But it is a great idea and you should use your influence in your circles to convince folks to bring em home. Rebuild the bases here giving local jobs to carpenters, plumbers, electricians, the pizza place (big one there!) as they refurbish and add to facilities or bring sleeping or abandoned bases back up to utility status. Then you save money on foreign ventures of wasteful stupidity (maybe don't use that phrase amongst other traditional conservatives:)) and pump up the local economy. Get the guys out doing fancy drill and expand band programs..may be a good thing for those with certain injuries or mental/spiritual issues from war with some musical talent to begin with. Do local parades. My father was drill sarge for The Black Watch and I went to many parades, with fancy drill shows, horses, bagpipers and brass bands... Lots of fun for kids..no war or battle focus..just people and families proud of the soldiers (this was Canada in the 60's) Let it shift its focus to a Military-Industrial Gifting Complex and keep doing the research but repurpose it for the general publics benefit. All the repatriated soldiers at each base will be using the local gas stations, BARS!!, restaurants, car dealers, household and hard goods stores, which backends the money out to suppliers and manufacturers. So I am kinda serious in that I want to see a "sitting army"...one that hurries up waiting" and projects a citizen soldier face to and interaction with the public. They might want to change their boot camp degradation induction tactics. I talk to many vets disgusted at this. There are better ways to win over a new recruit without training them to be an unthinking psychopath.

Best Regards
Rev9
 
Against my better judgment, I'll dive in here. The OP would be very comfortable with A. T. Mahan's The Influence of Sea Power Upon History (The case for why the US needs a strong Navy and not much of an Army).

Opinion is yes there needs to be a regular Army (with a different focus), an Army Reserve, and disbanding the National Guard in favor of the Militia.

Reason behind my opinion is the following:

Regular Army should be a General Staff, Training, and maintaining full strength Brigade, Division, Corps, and Army headquarters (these also serve as the training cadre for the Militia), and a few full strength units based on threat analysis, and the need to give NCOs and officers actual experience in operating units - this experience is needed to maintain a good training program.

The Militia is intended to be the primary building blocks for the National Army, should one be needed. One of the big problems in a militia structure is the quality of the unit, which determines the training time required to make the unit combat effective. You can draw experienced officers and NCOs into the militia units from former active duty people, you increase the ability of the militia unit, and shorten the training time required on call up. You can relatively quickly build support units if the equipment is on hand. Driving a military truck is not much different than any other truck, medical skills readily transfer to a military application, and the same for engineering and other support tasks. The combat arms skills are critical to military success, and this requires study and training is those operations, and some experience in order for leaders to make sound decisions. Computer simulations are not the same as actually doing it with a unit. Computers are bad at replicating the "friction" of war.

The other factor is the expense of equipping a soldier - in inflation constant 2010 dollars, is cost about $1500 to equip a WWII infantryman. Today's cost is about $15,000 because we want to put night vision, body armor, and communications in the hands of every infantryman in order to maintain absolute superiority over any possible opponent, which saves as many lives of our fellow citizens as possible (competent commanders being the other great life saver). I can train an infantryman in 30 days, but I can't train platoon leaders, company commanders, and battalion commanders that are really good, without a year for a platoon leader, a couple of years for a company commander, and a good four years minimum for a battalion commander. Bad company and battalion commanders caused a good bit of our loss in WWII.
Spoken by someone that knows of what he is talking about. The people that think that a million guns in a million men's hands is a million man army and obviously have not ever been in modern warfare. A well trained army of 100,000 would take them out in a matter of days. Ask the million man Iraqi army dug in in Kuwait what happened to them when a well trained army of 1/5 the size devastated them in days
 
Absolutely Yes!

Our history has proven that militias are not sufficiently effective when the nation is in real danger. National Defense is also the single most important responsibility of government as defined in the Constitution. The so called "national guard' is unconstitutional and should be abolished or made legal by Constitutional amendment. A solid corp of skilled war professionals is essential to our national defense with the ability to react quickly and train other citizens in time of a real emergency.

Bring our troops home... reduce their size... and train like hell in case they are actually needed. Put them on the Canadian border and keep the likes of Anne Murray, Keanu Reeves, Howie Mandel, Seth Rogen and especially Celine Dion north of the border where they belong. And, if we have enough left, put some on the Mexican border as well.

I honestly believe that the notion or eliminating our need for a standing army, able to react quickly and professionally trained in war is naive. It is an unrealistically Utopian view of the world not based in reality. The founders were rightly concerned about a standing army... but the Navy was set as a permanent fixture. A standing army is absolutely necessary... but they do not need to be in bases on Asia, and Europe, and South America... or anywhere else in the world.

Bring them home... train them well... and kick the crap out of anyone who messes with us.
 
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A standing army is absolutely necessary... but they do not need to be in bases on Asia, and Europe, and South America... or anywhere else in the world.

Bring them home... train them well... and kick the crap out of anyone who messes with us.

Yes, absolutely. +Rep.
 
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