Divisive libertarian issue; where do you sit?

[newbitech]

In a world where people are generally taught to think critically, be honest with themselves, and to accept responsibility for their actions this might work. But...

Well, then either let them kill themselves off or let them breed themselves out of control and consume all the resources at an unsustainable level where they die off from disease and famine.

Either the way the outcome in my world is the same. buckle down for survival of the fittest, which means I am gonna be eating on the run and probably won't be able to tend my crops.

 

[bolil]

I wish people would be more responsible when getting freaky which would do much to settle this chaff issue. Reversible vasectomies would be ideal for the abundantly cautious as it seems like birth control pills and hormonal interference is really a Pandora's box for the lady, and mechanical methods can fail.

 

[bolil]

Yeah but you know that in order for every breakfast restaurant in America to serve breakfast all damn day, there's no way that even a significant portion of these animals live a good animal life nor are they put down humanely. You can lie to yourself and say they do just so your bacon continues to taste good, but that wouldn't be any better than voting for the lesser of two evils for how much of a difference it makes.

There is no way you can know that. You might think that, people once thought horses and carriages were as convenient as transportation was going to get, and then just for the rich. Now? Widespread ownership (Or rental considering insurance and registration fees) of automobiles is a fact, where not so long ago it seemed an impossible fancy.

Furthermore, there are farms that do raise their animals humanely, and kill and butcher them humanely as well. These products are expensive and maybe that is because the FRN is so damn cheap (inflated).

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Yeah but you know that in order for every breakfast restaurant in America to serve breakfast all damn day, there's no way that even a significant portion of these animals live a good animal life nor or they put down humanely. You can lie to yourself and say they do just so your bacon continues to taste good, but that wouldn't be any better than voting for the lesser of two evils for how much of a difference it makes.

I live in sin and I am merely an animal himself. I make no other justifications aside from that I was born unto this. I will eat bacon until my heart clogs. Probably washing it down with a beer. It is the American way, or rather, my way. [which your way is the only truly American way]

You are preaching to the wrong choir.

 

[Nirvikalpa]

At one point or another, I was very staunchly pro-life, even attending the pro-life march in DC on a couple of occasions.

As I began to study conception and embryology, while fascinating and completely amazing, and my true passion in this world, I became aware of the fact there is no "set in stone" solution to the abortion issue. Some will argue life begins at conception - this I do not believe, as conception itself is a process (and does not take a second to occur). But where does it start? When is the soul formed?

I don't have a faintest idea. People, medical doctors even, can throw out numbers - oh, a fetal heartbeat is detected this day, brain waves can be recorded at this day - I want to know the exact millisecond an embryo goes from a bundle of cells to "alive."

I'm a pro-life pro-choicer, and will probably remain that way until I die.

 

[anaconda]

It's a moot issue if we're all in FEMA camps.

 

[anaconda]

I'm a pro-life pro-choicer

This sums it up for me as well.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

One day, I tell you, all the abortion threads will be merged....and the internetz will explode!

 

[UWDude]

This poll would show much different results if this forum was full of pro-choice women.

 

[Sayzak]

It seems to me that most of the Libertarians who frequent these forums are so hung up on the abortion issue that they'd rather vote for just about any conservative rather than vote for a Libertarian who is otherwise perfect. Am I wrong in that assumption? If it came down to a typical liberal, a typical conservative, and gary johnson... would this issue prevent you from voting for Gary Johnson? Honest question.

For the record, I'm pro-choice (for the first half of the pregnancy), and I still eat meat. But when I eat meat I do so with shame. Probably similar to the shame I would feel if someone I knocked up had an abortion.

 

[WarAnonymous]

It seems to me that most of the Libertarians who frequent these forums are so hung up on the abortion issue that they'd rather vote for just about any conservative rather than vote for a Libertarian who is otherwise perfect. Am I wrong in that assumption? If it came down to a typical liberal, a typical conservative, and gary johnson... would this issue prevent you from voting for Gary Johnson? Honest question.

For the record, I'm pro-choice (for the first half of the pregnancy), and I still eat meat. But when I eat meat I do so with shame. Probably similar to the shame I would feel if someone I knocked up had an abortion.

I disagree... Definately not my top issue either way. Not evern a top 10. Abortions and the gay argument are the blinding light of America.

 

[bolil]

For the record, I'm pro-choice (for the first half of the pregnancy), and I still eat meat. But when I eat meat I do so with shame. Probably similar to the shame I would feel if someone I knocked up had an abortion.

I don't always eat meat, but when I do I'm wracked with guilt.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

Pro-choice and pro-life. I don't believe in using force to legislate responsible behavior, even in the event of a potential life being in question, but do believe communities are best served trying to see that most every pregnancy reaches its natural conclusion.

A pregnancy, carried to term, is greatly aided by responsible behavior. Counterproductive behavior can result in a miscarriage. If they can just as well kill the fetus using indirect methods, but with the same overall intent, then the only recourse is to force pregnant women to behave in a manner best for the fetus. This is, as far as I'm concerned, tantamount to enslaving pregnant women, and not permissible behavior. The rights of others should never require even one individual to surrender their self-ownership.

By all means apply all kinds of social pressures/incentives to discourage such behavior, but that is the same means best used to discourage all sorts of stupidity. Abortion should be no different in this regard. It's a disgusting practice best wiped out, but not by legislation and the slippery slope it entails.

 

[Smart3]

On the issue of abortion / choice / life where do you sit?

I understand that people who are pro-choice may be pro-choice only to a certain point, but if you're pro-choice to any point then you do not align with the gop narrative and that is part of the reason for this poll.

Not in my case. I'm one of the 8 so far to stand up for all of the world's women. Feels good.

I'm strongly pro-life. I find it ironic that so many liberals support groups like the Sierra Club that wants to protect snake eggs but support abortion at the same time.

I don't see the connection.

My position on this is based on how long the fetus has been developing in the womb. If it's just a fertilized egg or an amorphous clump of cells, then aborting it doesn't bother me. But if the fetus has developed to the point where it has a brain and the capacity to feel pain, then I'm very much opposed to aborting it. Once a fetus has a functioning brain, I consider it to be a person who has rights.

Does the right to life of a mostly-developed fetus trump the right of the mother to ownership of her own body? I would say yes, since the mother freely chose to engage in an action that she knew could get her pregnant (this excludes rape, of course). That's not the fault of the person living inside her. Once she has allowed the fetus to become a person, I believe she has an obligation to protect that person, much as parents have an obligation to protect their children after birth.

You've got two very different things there - a functioning brain and the capacity to feel pain.

There is little reason to think a fetus can feel pain in the first or second trimesters. All of the most recent science shows 24-28 weeks is much more likely than the "20 weeks" (or earlier) propagated by extremists.

Also define "functional" ? It takes 21 years for the brain to fully develop in women, and 25 years in men. What exactly is functional?

 

[bolil]

Not in my case. I'm one of the 8 so far to stand up for all of the world's women. Feels good.


I don't see the connection.


You've got two very different things there - a functioning brain and the capacity to feel pain.

There is little reason to think a fetus can feel pain in the first or second trimesters. All of the most recent science shows 24-28 weeks is much more likely than the "20 weeks" (or earlier) propagated by extremists.

Also define "functional" ? It takes 21 years for the brain to fully develop in women, and 25 years in men. What exactly is functional?

People in comas can't communicate whether they can feel pain, neither can a baby. MRI scans can detect activity in a brain. Dr. Moriah Thomason of Wayne State University has performed MRI scans on fetuses 24 months into development. "Researchers obtained functional MRI connectivity diagrams for more than 80 regions in the fetal brain." (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/...-signal?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s). Connectivity is primary function of any brain.

Also, keep in mind that a brain is composed of many regions and the cerebral cortex is the region associated with processing of all kinds of stimulus, and since pain seems to be one your concerned with please note that is included. The Cerebral Cortex begins to develop 8-13 weeks in. It is not a stretch to say that as soon as the Cerebral Cortex begins to develop weeks, the "capacity" to feel pain is there.

Functional: Functions. Does not imply complete, or perfect, function. EG. This knife is sharp, it cuts meat - It is functional. This knife is less sharp, it cuts meat- It is also functional. Now to apply: This brain is developed, it does everything - it is functional. This brain is less developed, it does some things - it is functional. This brain is damaged, it does some things - it is functional.

You still up for giving "non-contributors" a suicide pill? The neural activity of the geriatric is diminished, sometimes to the point of total (a guy like you might say) parasitic dependence. Who decides whether or not to choose for them? Fortunately, and hopefully, they took advantage of their cognizant years and guided someone on what to do for them. Fetuses don't get that chance.


and "only ideas won by walking have any value"

 

[Constitutional Paulicy]

 

[Bman]

I was a lot more pro choice then I became after I saw my daughters first ultra sound years ago. It was at 8 weeks and she was moving and very much human at that point in time. I'm not sure the answer to preventing abortion lies within the use of law but if one is to decide on an abortion they better get their ass to the clinic a.s.a.p because there has to be a cut off point. I'd say no more then about a week past your missed period. That gives the woman time to decide if she wants or if she does not. After that I'm fine if your ass rots in jail.

 

[WarAnonymous]

I was a lot more pro choice then I became after I saw my daughters first ultra sound years ago. It was at 8 weeks and she was moving and very much human at that point in time. I'm not sure the answer to preventing abortion lies within the use of law but if one is to decide on an abortion they better get their ass to the clinic a.s.a.p because there has to be a cut off point. I'd say no more then about a week past your missed period. That gives the woman time to decide if she wants or if she does not. After that I'm fine if your ass rots in jail.

I am not sure why they even go on so long. It just seems like an act of laziness or carelessness. Oh, I was going to go have an abortion today but then I went out with my friends instead. Then eventually they run out of time and have to go do it.

 

[Working Poor]

Roe v Wade did not invent abortion. While I think abortion is not good I still think it is insane for me to think I can control it. I would not doubt at all if a large percentage of the women between the ages of 18-40 who are on anti depressants have abortion related guilt.

All I can do is recommend that if you are against it don't have one and men who care against it don't have sex with a woman who does not share your values.
Heroin is illegal but it does not stop the people who want to use it from doing so and making abortion illegal will not stop a woman who wants one from getting one.

 

[Origanalist]

Here's another challenge I would like you to consider:

Suppose your wife/girl friend tells you that she's pregnant. But just before you can feel that flood of dread, or excitement, or whatever it is you'd feel, some god figure pauses time, descends from heaven and gives you an ultimatum; He tells you that with absolute certainty, your child can suffer one of two fates: Either they are to grow up a slave to some foreign corporation, working various machines to create specific fabrics for 14 hours a day indefinitely, or until they try to make a run for it... or they are terminated in the womb. What would you ultimately choose for your child?

Oh please.....

We are talking about the greatest welfare state in history. If you are talking about seriously poor countries, why don't we let the child decide?