Divisive libertarian issue; where do you sit?

[newbitech]

Why are you so loyal to other people? What I am trying to get to the bottom of, is basically this: Why are you as loyal to a pea-sized ball of goop (that would eventually become a human being) as you are a person, but you're not as loyal to an animal that is already completely capable of feeling all the terror and pain from being slaughtered as that baby could ever be? And don't you see a conflict there?

Two different kinds of life.

 

[Sayzak]

Two different kinds of life.

What does that mean?

 

[acptulsa]

And don't you see a conflict there?

Yes, of course there's conflict in the food chain. No, I'm not interested in overthrowing it.

There's a lesson to be learned from American Indians on this. One does not kill except to eat. And one would hope that is completely inapplicable to abortion.

 

[newbitech]

What does that mean?

Well in the one hand, you have the human kind, the other hand you have the non human kind.

 

[fr33]

I chose the "on the fence" choice. Here's why. I am strictly pro-life in my beliefs and moral codes. But I also take into consideration what politics is and how acceptable abortion has become in our "society". So it's not my #1 issue that will make or break my support for a candidate. But I've only voted for 1 pro choice candidate thus far.

 

[Sayzak]

Yes, of course there's conflict in the food chain. No, I'm not interested in overthrowing it.

There's a lesson to be learned from American Indians on this. One does not kill except to eat. And one would hope that is completely inapplicable to abortion.

What if there's no need for a food chain? I'm no vegan, or vegetarian, but I have been humbled and totally schooled by both recently (in the same "holy shit" kind of way that Ron Paul humbled and schooled me 7 years ago).

What if I told you there's no need for meat in our diet, because we can get all the nutrients from other foods already easily accessible and affordable to us? (Killing animals isn't necessary). Would you still be as happy to bite into your strip of bacon, knowing that a pig was brutally murdered (if it happened to you that's what you would call it) in order for that bacon to land on your plate?

I didn't mean to hijack my own thread, I just wanted to challenge people to accept that there IS a grey area in their own morality, and no matter what side of the abortion issue you're on, you're not innocent.

 

[newbitech]

What if there's no need for a food chain? I'm no vegan, or vegetarian, but I have been humbled and totally schooled by both recently (in the same "holy shit" kind of way that Ron Paul humbled and schooled me 7 years ago).

What if I told you there's no need for meat in our diet, because we can get all the nutrients from other foods already easily accessible and affordable to us? (Killing animals isn't necessary). Would you still be as happy to bite into your strip of bacon, knowing that a pig was brutally murdered (if it happened to you that's what you would call it) in order for that bacon to land on your plate?

I didn't mean to hijack my own thread, I just wanted to challenge people to accept that there IS a grey area in their own morality, and no matter what side of the abortion issue you're on, you're not innocent.

Would you be the one to kindly tell the lioness to eat peanut butter and tofu? I am being serious, nature has taught us how to survive. One way to do that is to kill other animals instead of killing our selves.

You are speaking of evolving, and I am there with you. Where I get lost with the whole, life is this or life is that question is, if we are all one with the universe, wouldn't eating a veggie only diet still be like, self-cannibalization? Serious question.

 

[acptulsa]

I've never heard a pig call it that. I've never heard of a pig calling it that. And I don't know, as my friend above mentions, the lioness would call it. But I have no doubt she'd do it to me if she were hungry.

What part of I don't intend to overthrow the food chain did I leave ambiguous and unclear?

 

[Sayzak]

Here's another challenge I would like you to consider:

Suppose your wife/girl friend tells you that she's pregnant. But just before you can feel that flood of dread, or excitement, or whatever it is you'd feel, some god figure pauses time, descends from heaven and gives you an ultimatum; He tells you that with absolute certainty, your child can suffer one of two fates: Either they are to grow up a slave to some foreign corporation, working various machines to create specific fabrics for 14 hours a day indefinitely, or until they try to make a run for it... or they are terminated in the womb. What would you ultimately choose for your child?

 

[Matthew5]

No grey areas here. Animal life (or plant, or microns...) is not equal to humans. Humans are the sole possessors of body, mind, spirit, and soul.

Obviously that's supported theologically, but I also believe you'll find that concept in the secular world as well.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Why are you so loyal to other people? What I am trying to get to the bottom of, is basically this: Why are you as loyal to a pea-sized ball of goop (that would eventually become a human being) as you are a person, but you're not as loyal to an animal that is already completely capable of feeling all the terror and pain from being slaughtered as that baby could ever be? And don't you see a conflict there?

The difference is, and I'm only speaking for myself, is that I know the general conditions of meat afforded to me. [Or rather sold to me] I am not going to say that it isn't sickening how some of the animals [or even most of the animals] are treated.

I'd prefer for my meat to be humanely treated, raised happily, and put down in the least amount of pain they'd see. (righteously killed) The problem is I cannot afford it. [and a lot of Americans can't afford it] I have seen the worst of the worst. (I felt obligated, seeing that the animal has sacrificed) Truly horrific shit that factory farms do.

Us mistreating animals, or eating animals, is a strawman.

I am against abortion. (birth control and Plan B don't fall into my definition of murder)

 

[WarAnonymous]

People in the liberty movement tend to say "In freedom a women has a right to choose what she does to her body." This argument is correct but not in the way it is presented. With freedom, comes responsibility. If you are to engage in sexual activities, you need to be willing to take responsibilties for your actions. So yes, the women has a right to engage in sexual activities (to her body). Here's the problem though... It is time to start teaching responsibilities to young men as well. We need to teach that men need to take responsibility for their actions as well. To many pro-life people sit around and blame the women, call them dirty names, and the guy justs gets off totally free because he is not the one with the baby. Abortions that don't pertain to rape, or the mothers life, should not be looked upon as freedom. That is not responsible. The typical left argument is wouldn't you rather have the baby aborted than born into a home with no responsibility or a drug family? But why should one person get to make the choice of if another person has a right to life?

I totally believe that if you make the decisions, you need to be responsible for them.

So shouldn't we make this argument also?:
Shouldn't a heroine junkie be able to get government funding so they don't die from not having heroine? We like to argue for decriminalizing drugs, so why not also advocate heroine addicts not take responsibility for their actions? Help them continue making their bad decisions. At what point do you say abortion is enough (if you are pro-choice)? Is it ok to use it as a form of birth control? I mean if you say it's ok once, is it ok 3 or 4 times?

You can say these are unrelated... but they are related. It's the concept of helping one out of their bad decisions.

 

[Sayzak]

Would you be the one to kindly tell the lioness to eat peanut butter and tofu? I am being serious, nature has taught us how to survive. One way to do that is to kill other animals instead of killing our selves.

You are speaking of evolving, and I am there with you. Where I get lost with the whole, life is this or life is that question is, if we are all one with the universe, wouldn't eating a veggie only diet still be like, self-cannibalization? Serious question.

Animals also eat their young sometimes. Or abandon them when they don't have the resources. Etc. In that sense, leaving a new born baby in a dumpster is more natural than either raising them on welfare or terminating them in the womb.

I don't intend on modeling my life on animal behavior -- though I am comfortable with the fact that we are all animals. I only intend on being more honest about that which separates us from other animals; our imagination, or cognition. Why are we on a soap box regarding abortion, when we're so stubborn when it comes to exploiting and murdering animals? We bear the burden of responsibility that no other animals on this planet do. We know when we're doing something questionable (or at least we have the capacity to know). Why do we pick some, but not the other? Why are vegans pro-choice, while meat-eaters are pro-life? Isn't that just as hypocritical as a pro-life, pro-war watcher of fox news?

 

[Sayzak]

The difference is, and I'm only speaking for myself, is that I know the general conditions of meat afforded to me. [Or rather sold to me] I am not going to say that it isn't sickening how some of the animals [or even most of the animals] are treated.

I'd prefer for my meat to be humanely treated, raised happily, and put down in the least amount of pain they'd see. (righteously killed) The problem is I cannot afford it. [and a lot of Americans can't afford it] I have seen the worst of the worst. (I felt obligated, seeing that the animal has sacrificed) Truly horrific shit that factory farms do.

Us mistreating animals, or eating animals, is a strawman.

I am against abortion. (birth control and Plan B don't fall into my definition of murder)

A diet without killing animals is attainable and affordable. Ask a vegan. Or, you know, Ron Paul is crazy, he isn't electable, he's a loony fringe racist, etc. See what I'm getting at?

 

[acptulsa]

Shouldn't a heroine junkie be able to get government funding so they don't die from not having heroine?

I'm not much for government programs. But it seems to me comic books would do the trick, and they're cheap enough...

 

[newbitech]

Animals also eat their young sometimes. Or abandon them when they don't have the resources. Etc. In that sense, leaving a new born baby in a dumpster is more natural than either raising them on welfare or terminating them in the womb.

I don't intend on modeling my life on animal behavior -- though I am comfortable with the fact that we are all animals. I only intend on being more honest about that which separates us from other animals; our imagination, or cognition. Why are we on a soap box regarding abortion, when we're so stubborn when it comes to exploiting and murdering animals? We bear the burden of responsibility that no other animals on this planet do. We know when we're doing something questionable (or at least we have the capacity to know). Why do we pick some, but not the other? Why are vegans pro-choice, while meat-eaters are pro-life? Isn't that just as hypocritical as a pro-life, pro-war watcher of fox news?

Not sure what soapbox you are talking about, but I think as humans, we leave these types of deeply personal decisions up to the people they are closest to. Actually, i think all personal decisions are deeply personal and should be left to the individuals.

I don't appreciate the fanaticism from one side or the other. I would support a movement that took that decision out of the "public" hand. Whether or not that person is acting immoral I believe is a question only they can answer in their own heart with their own counsel. Persuasion or coercion from the outside can only serve to distort that persons heart and counsel.

 

[Sayzak]

Not sure what soapbox you are talking about, but I think as humans, we leave these types of deeply personal decisions up to the people they are closest to. Actually, i think all personal decisions are deeply personal and should be left to the individuals.

I don't appreciate the fanaticism from one side or the other. I would support a movement that took that decision out of the "public" hand. Whether or not that person is acting immoral I believe is a question only they can answer in their own heart with their own counsel. Persuasion or coercion from the outside can only serve to distort that persons heart and counsel.

In a world where people are generally taught to think critically, be honest with themselves, and to accept responsibility for their actions this might work. But...

 

[bolil]

A diet without killing animals is attainable and affordable. Ask a vegan. Or, you know, Ron Paul is crazy, he isn't electable, he's a loony fringe racist, etc. See what I'm getting at?

Yes, but meat tastes good. Meat harvested from an Animal that lived a good animal life and was put down humanely tastes better. I see what your getting at.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

A diet without killing animals is attainable and affordable. Ask a vegan. Or, you know, Ron Paul is crazy, he isn't electable, he's a loony fringe racist, etc. See what I'm getting at?

Yes, yes I do. The thing is, I've seen the castrated pigs, the debeaked chickens, I know. I love bacon. I fry chicken or fish every Fryday. One of the best things about living on this planet is good food.

I'd protect a baby against any 'misguided' child or woman, [though in my area, it's children getting abortions] from harming what I see as truly innocent.

Someone trying to drown dog puppies would get a 'lesson' as well. And trust and believe, I've lived around some ignorant motherfuckers.

 

[Sayzak]

Yes, but meat tastes good. Meat harvested from an Animal that lived a good animal life and was put down humanely tastes better.

Yeah but you know that in order for every breakfast restaurant in America to serve breakfast all damn day, there's no way that even a significant portion of these animals live a good animal life nor are they put down humanely. You can lie to yourself and say they do just so your bacon continues to taste good, but that wouldn't be any better than voting for the lesser of two evils for how much of a difference it makes.