Dems filibustering Texas abortion bill (live stream)

[Carlybee]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

 

[James Madison]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

But it does. It's not really up for debate. I mean, you might as well be arguing with people who believe the earth is flat.

 

[Carlybee]

But it does. It's not really up for debate. I mean, you might as well be arguing with people who believe the earth is flat.

You can't FORCE people to believe something they don't believe, so yes it is up for debate. And not everyone in this country is a Christian either or believes in the existence of God or that the bible is real. Ignoring the fact just makes you look insular. You cannot force people to believe something just because you do. It's that type of thinking that won the election for Obama. Because those people who you think shouldn't have a voice, showed up.

 

[James Madison]

You can't FORCE people to believe something they don't believe, so yes it is up for debate. And not everyone in this country is a Christian either or believes in the existence of God or that the bible is real. Ignoring the fact just makes you look insular. You cannot force people to believe something just because you do. It's that type of thinking that won the election for Obama. Because those people who you think shouldn't have a voice, showed up.

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

 

[Carlybee]

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature. This is not a winnable battle. You can legislate abortion all day long and it's not going to make anyone stop having an abortion. They will just go elsewhere or a string of back alley butchers will pop up...which is exactly what happened the last time abortion was illegal in Texas. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong it's what happens.

 

[James Madison]

Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature.

If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?

 

[Carlybee]

If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?

That's a forgone conclusion but I personally prefer to choose my battles and this isn't one of them for me. The shredding of our Bill of Rights is more important to me at the moment because once those are gone we will be unable to speak out about any issue that is important to us. I stand by the Libertarian platform with regard to abortion even though I would prefer no one ever have an abortion. I don't believe it is or will ever be a winnable fight. I believe education and peer pressure are the only things that will stop it...not legislation. People tend to get pissed when you tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. And unless you are willing to pay for them to raise a child or find someone to adopt it, they will always take the easy way out. But you can keep spinning your wheels and keep giving the libs a reason to show up and vote.

People also do see it as a religious issue because the churches push pro life legislation. Many of the same churches that believe that Islam should be destroyed by any means necessary so people see it as hypocrisy to say one values life yet has no problem with taking life. (not saying all churches are like this but many see them that way.) Those same churches enjoy tax free status and by law are not supposed to have any influence on elections...that's not the way people see it. If you want to bring people into the fold these are things that have to be considered. If the Republicans as a party don't figure out a way to bring people in, they are doomed because they are already splintered between the neocons, the Tea Partiers, and the pro liberty faction. One thing the Dems do well is come together even if they have disagreements on platform. They are like a bunch of rabid dogs and these types of issues are like a juicy bone to them.

 

[JCDenton0451]

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.

Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something?

 

[JCDenton0451]

http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscience/item/the_curious_consensus_of_jews_on_abortion

First, let’s look at the PRRI data. Essentially regardless of denominational affiliation or demographics, American Jews think abortion should be legal in all (49%) or almost all (44%) cases. That is, fully 93% of all American Jews support legalized abortion in some fashion. Even political leanings, while influential, are not determinative. Among Jewish Democrats support is 95%, but 77% of Jewish Republicans also favor legalized abortion in all or most cases, far exceeding the rate of other groups studied.


The comparable numbers for other faith groups is quite different not only in their overall support or opposition to legalized abortion, but in the internal differences within each group. Jews are the only group surveyed in which a plurality support abortion in all cases. While about half of all Jews support abortion in all cases, in no other faith group does such support exceed 25% of the population. Moreover, in comparison to the 93% total of Jews who support legalized abortion in all or most cases, the only other group surveyed that showed clear majority support for legalized abortion was white mainline Protestants (59%). The comparable numbers for black Protestants and Catholics are 50% and 48%. Just one-third of white evangelicals support abortion in all or most situations.

Do you think that Jews support abortion because they're ignorant or what? lol

 

[James Madison]

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.

This is quite possibly one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on RPFs and underlines the dangers that go with collectivist worldviews. So, congrats for that.

A single fertilzed egg meeting every criteria for a living organism is a fact. If you can't understand that, go back to Biology 100. You can use my old textbooks because your's clearly aren't working.

Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something.

No, because thousands of years ago, science -- let alone biology -- didn't exist. We grew up; we learned new things. Some of the old world carried over into the new. People still say 'to the ends of the Earth'. Doesn't mean they believe the earth is flat.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.

Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something?

Koreans do and so do a lot of other East Asian countries. I don't see why not, except that it is not a norm / customary in the West. Our age is at the time we were born (In the west), but no one (except the most ignorant out there) would deny that the prior time you were in your mother does not count as time, or proclaim that you were dead in the womb then miraculously came alive @ time of birth.

 

[James Madison]

Koreans do and so do a lot of other East Asian countries. I don't see why not, except that it is not a norm / customary in the West. Our age is at the time we were born (In the west), but no one (except the most ignorant out there) would deny that the prior time you were in your mother does not count as time, or proclaim that you were dead in the womb then miraculously came alive @ time of birth.

You've hit on a very interesting point.

Those who support abortion rights yet condemn murder outside the womb have no choice but to invoke the existence of a mysterious life force that flows into you as you are born. That, of course, is complete rubbish. You can rip on Christians for being anti-Science, but most atheists and the left as a whole are just as guilty.

 

[romeno182]

Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

yes when u finish the act there is a 3 person in the room.. pff pathetic

 

[Carlybee]

Bill failed, unable to be signed before midnight. Wonder why the proponents didn't show up?

I hope someone is paying attention because this is what happens when people do show up.

 

[KEEF]

Found one of my posts from 2011 on the subject of when life begins.

I second that. Coming from a biologist perspective when I discuss this with my college students, I always ask them if would the scientific community go nuts about finding life on another planet if the only thing they found was independent DNA?...they absolutely would... So if that is life, why isn't an embryo considered life upon conception since it too has its own unique DNA independent of its parents?

 

[Carlybee]

Texas is not going to turn blue over this. The bill has greater than 60% support according to a poll taken 1 or 2 days ago. This is the Austin communist party mobilizing and that's it.

I guess the 60% were home sleeping.

 

[JCDenton0451]

A single fertilzed egg meeting every criteria for a living organism is a fact.

Yes, but who says that its existence should be protected by the law? Certainly not the US Constitution.

Your abortion restrictions would make life difficult for millions of people for no good reason, other than your personal (Christian) beliefs and convictions.

 

[shane77m]

If we can't kill them babies the world will become overpopulated. It is not like those bastard children will grow up to amount to anything anyways.

I wonder if I PETA would get all bent out of shape if I opened an abortion clinic for animals?
You say your cat got knocked up? Well bring her in. We'll suck the little parasites out. Hell, we will even euthanize them if they survive the process.


I find it ironic how so many people argue that people have a right to medical care to keep people healthy and alive but also argue for the right to kill babies.

 

[KEEF]

If we can't kill them babies the world will become overpopulated. It is not like those bastard children will grow up to amount to anything anyways.

I wonder if I PETA would get all bent out of shape if I opened an abortion clinic for animals?
You say your cat got knocked up? Well bring her in. We'll suck the little parasites out. Hell, we will even euthanize them if they survive the process.


I find it ironic how so many people argue that people have a right to medical care to keep people healthy and alive but also argue for the right to kill babies.

I like it, we can call it Planned Pethood

 

[JCDenton0451]

You've hit on a very interesting point.

Those who support abortion rights yet condemn murder outside the womb have no choice but to invoke the existence of a mysterious life force that flows into you as you are born. That, of course, is complete rubbish. You can rip on Christians for being anti-Science, but most atheists and the left as a whole are just as guilty.

The reason human society invented laws (and corresponding moral norms) against homicide is to protect the members of society. Each of us supports the punishment for murder because it is in our best interest to have this kind of action prohibited by the law and social norm. Abortion is different obviously. How are you threatened by other people having abortions?

Among the first-world countries America is the only one that still debates abortion, all because we have such a huge population of religious fanatics.