The reason human society invented laws (and corresponding moral norms) against homicide is to protect the members of society. Each of us supports the punishment for murder because it is in our best interest to have this kind of action prohibited by the law and social norm. Abortion is different obviously. How are you threatened by other people having abortions?
Among the first-world countries America is the only one that still debates abortion, all because we have such a huge population of religious fanatics.
America is the only country with a liberty movement too...
Your argument is basically, we shouldn't support laws against abortion because the only people who will be killed can't defend themselves.
Why not legalize the murder of the mentally disabled, then? Because that's the logical conclusion to this insane proposition.
Ugh...
Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.
You know what? I really don't care what they think.
Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin.
Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature. This is not a winnable battle. You can legislate abortion all day long and it's not going to make anyone stop having an abortion. They will just go elsewhere or a string of back alley butchers will pop up...which is exactly what happened the last time abortion was illegal in Texas. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong it's what happens.
LIFE begins BEFORE conception, if I recall correctly.
Its over when that life becomes distinct and valuable where the debate comes in. Any standard other than conception is pretty darn arbitrary, IMO.
If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?
The way I read this is...
We are SOL...
Because people are that ignorant.
That's a forgone conclusion but I personally prefer to choose my battles and this isn't one of them for me. The shredding of our Bill of Rights is more important to me at the moment because once those are gone we will be unable to speak out about any issue that is important to us. I stand by the Libertarian platform with regard to abortion even though I would prefer no one ever have an abortion. I don't believe it is or will ever be a winnable fight. I believe education and peer pressure are the only things that will stop it...not legislation. People tend to get pissed when you tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. And unless you are willing to pay for them to raise a child or find someone to adopt it, they will always take the easy way out. But you can keep spinning your wheels and keep giving the libs a reason to show up and vote.
People also do see it as a religious issue because the churches push pro life legislation. Many of the same churches that believe that Islam should be destroyed by any means necessary so people see it as hypocrisy to say one values life yet has no problem with taking life. (not saying all churches are like this but many see them that way.) Those same churches enjoy tax free status and by law are not supposed to have any influence on elections...that's not the way people see it. If you want to bring people into the fold these are things that have to be considered. If the Republicans as a party don't figure out a way to bring people in, they are doomed because they are already splintered between the neocons, the Tea Partiers, and the pro liberty faction. One thing the Dems do well is come together even if they have disagreements on platform. They are like a bunch of rabid dogs and these types of issues are like a juicy bone to them.
You know...
I don't think we should fight this battle at the Federal level. So I don't really disagree with you. In an ideal world I might support some kind of constitutional amendment, but even then, it would matter how it was worded. The thing with any amendment is, if you don't like it, you should be able to leave the Union peacefully, as a state, but that option was destroyed (At least for now) long ago.
The state level is another story. I believe Roe v Wade should be nullified just as much as I believe marijuana laws, gun control laws, or basically anything else from the Feds should be nullified.
Now, I'd vote for a pro-choice person who agreed with my other views pretty easily. The executive arm of the Federal Government can't do a whole lot about this anyway. This battle is really in the hands of the states and the people now.
I'd have a much harder time voting for anyone who supported Roe v Wade since that would mean they don't understand Federalism AND they are pro-choice, which is worse than just being pro-choice.
In other words, 49% of Jews support outright murder and they know it?
Because that's the only way you can possibly support abortion in the third trimester. They know better, IMO...
Of course, too many evangelicals (Rockwell correctly calls them "warvangelicals" support the murder of the already born all the time, So I guess this isn't anything new.
