Delaware becomes 1st state to officially outlaw spanking

Hey, as long as the child volunteers, it's all good, right?

Its best to allow our babies to crawl outside of the house and wonder aimlessly at all hours of the day and night. Treat them like one of those Roomba vacuum cleaners. Why even feed or clothe them? They never want me to change their diapers or their clothes. As a "true" libertarian, why bother? Its their life.
 
Do ya'll even have kids?

Two. And they're as different as night and day and constantly changing. What works for one doesn't always work for the other. I'm not a fan of spanking. I see it as a tool in a parent's belt. Like a taser or a handgun, it's best not to use it. But to ban spanking, and give the state more excuses to tase children and parents, makes no freaking sense. I thought people were of the consensus that we have too many laws, not that we don't have enough? :confused:
 
Its best to allow our babies to crawl outside of the house and wonder aimlessly at all hours of the day and night. Treat them like one of those Roomba vacuum cleaners. Why even feed or clothe them? They never want me to change their diapers or their clothes. As a "true" libertarian, why bother? Its their life.

I'm starting a new organization, and I think it's long overdue. Self Determination for Toddlers.

Unshackle those kids! Release them from the bonds of slavery!
 
I just don't understand the argument for spanking in the first place. It's not right to hit anyone that isn't in self defense. You don't not to hit kids to raise them. I wasn't hit, spanked, yelled at, etc... as a child. My grandparents just explained things to me, and talked to me.

Just because "you are a parent" doesn't justify it and if it was done you as a kid it isn't justified for you to do it to others as well. It would be like someone being sexually assaulted as a child and then using the justification that "it was done to them" as a reason to do it to others.
 
I just don't understand the argument for spanking in the first place. It's not right to hit anyone that isn't in self defense. You don't not to hit kids to raise them. I wasn't hit, spanked, yelled at, etc... as a child. My grandparents just explained things to me, and talked to me.

Just because "you are a parent" doesn't justify it and if it was done you as a kid it isn't justified for you to do it to others as well. It would be like someone being sexually assaulted as a child and then using the justification that "it was done to them" as a reason to do it to others.

Again? You can just read the thread? Its been explained... At least 30 times
 
I just don't understand the argument for spanking in the first place. It's not right to hit anyone that isn't in self defense. You don't not to hit kids to raise them. I wasn't hit, spanked, yelled at, etc... as a child. My grandparents just explained things to me, and talked to me.

Just because "you are a parent" doesn't justify it and if it was done you as a kid it isn't justified for you to do it to others as well. It would be like someone being sexually assaulted as a child and then using the justification that "it was done to them" as a reason to do it to others.

How many babies and kids have you been around? Some have an innate and uncontrollable instinct to go and do whatever they want despite explanations or stern warnings. These unstationary beings are in grave danger whenever they are outside or in public. Have you seen a cc videos of children randomly darting in traffic and getting run over by cars? A little slap on the butt might teach them how it would feel to get hit by a car or burned by a boiling liquid on the stove.
 
I just don't understand the argument for spanking in the first place. It's not right to hit anyone that isn't in self defense. You don't not to hit kids to raise them. I wasn't hit, spanked, yelled at, etc... as a child. My grandparents just explained things to me, and talked to me.

Just because "you are a parent" doesn't justify it and if it was done you as a kid it isn't justified for you to do it to others as well. It would be like someone being sexually assaulted receiving a scowl and a stern talking-to as a child and then using the justification that "it was done to them" as a reason to do it to others.

Your analogy was a little over the top. I fixed it for you.
 
Trying to Legislate Morality does nothing except invite the Authoritarian Government into our homes, and outlawing spanking is an effort to legislate morality. Actually, its more than that. It is to legislate a False Sense of Morality for people to hide behind as an excuse for their actions, and falsely validates the existence of the authority. These same people also hide their own immorality from themselves by having someone else do "their dirty work" in the collection of taxes, the imprisonment of parents, the splitting up of other peoples families, or the execution of any of the sentences to be carried out against those that they expressly believe are unjust in their actions.
There's already loads of legislation of morality. Why should stealing be illegal, for example. That rests on the assumption that property ownership is moral and violating ownership is immoral. Otherwise, the laws would be redundant.
 
But, but when I have a child it will be the most perfect little bundle of joy that will be just like me so I'll never need to spank my child...

You people are old don't you remember what it was like to be a child?....Always oppressed and taken advantage of..

I'll never treat my child like that, in fact I'm going to be the best parent ever, no spankings just love-n-logic heck it would have worked on me if only......

Oh but wait I can vote now.........Hey new legislation.....It's for the kids...

Rainbows-n-lollypops..........Weeeeeeeee
 
I'm starting a new organization, and I think it's long overdue. Self Determination for Toddlers.

Unshackle those kids! Release them from the bonds of slavery!

I wish, if only for a little while, we could all actually live in this goofball fantasy land that some Libertarians/anarchists types talk about. Those toddlers are human beings, you have no right to control them! They have all the rights you do! Let them drive the family car alone on the interstate like they want to. Woo-hoo! :rolleyes:
 
Let me see if I can identify an undiscussed source of conflict in this thread.

People are protective of their families. I tried to show people that I would respect their choices of how they choose to raise their children, even if I did not agree with their methods. When anyone comes in with any form of a threat to my family, I would fight to the DEATH to protect my family from intrusion or invasion. The thing is, there are some who I offer respect to who would also protect their own families against my intrusion, and I would expect them to be just as fierce in that defense. There is nothing Nihilistic or Anarchist about that. If someone were to try to step into my home and enforce their opinions on me about how to raise my child, I will fight with the MAXIMUM LEVEL OF FORCE that I can muster. I will do everything in my power to end your life if you step one foot into my house without my permission. Then we get this percieved solution of persuading the Govt with all its thuggery to step in and tell me what I can and can not do with my family, simply, because it is away that people can hide their immorality from themselves by having someone else do the dirty work. If one of you forced your way into my house, I would shoot, and I would shoot to kill. If the govt forced their way into my house, I will shoot at them just as fucking quickly. And I would probably die, but not without fighting to protect what is nearest and dearest to me.

I have more than one reason for not forcing my way into your house, and it isnt because you may or may not have a gun. My main reason for doing so is to try to set an example that we can coexist, even if we disagree, without Govt intervention, by respecting each others boundaries. There are limits to my rights. I dont have the Right to tell you (not your kids, but you) how to live your life. My rights are Soverign, which means they only govern myself and my castle (shitty little trailer). I dont believe I have the right to force any action out of someone else, even if their actions are considered criminal. I do not have the right to seek out private justice against anyone, even Murderers. That is what the Law is for, and should be the extent of the law. I dont have the right to kill a murderer, because that makes me just as bad as the murderer and takes justice into my own hands.

By trying to validate the reasons for outlawing spanking (whether enforced or not) is to forcibly come into my home and enforce a different set of beliefs, and I WILL match that with as much force as is necessary. Forcing your way into my home, either by Govt, or you kicking in my front door, to me, is about as far from Liberty as we can possibly get. Demanding the Govt tell someone how to raise their kids is the opposite of freedom. The solution to this is not to have more govt, or more excuses for govt to kick in my front door, the solution is to eliminate the need and want of government by not exceeding your Soverign Rights and trying to come into my home. I'll match that with me not exceeding My Soverign Rights by trying to stick my nose in your business.
 
Let me see if I can identify an undiscussed source of conflict in this thread.

People are protective of their families. I tried to show people that I would respect their choices of how they choose to raise their children, even if I did not agree with their methods. When anyone comes in with any form of a threat to my family, I would fight to the DEATH to protect my family from intrusion or invasion. The thing is, there are some who I offer respect to who would also protect their own families against my intrusion, and I would expect them to be just as fierce in that defense. There is nothing Nihilistic or Anarchist about that. If someone were to try to step into my home and enforce their opinions on me about how to raise my child, I will fight with the MAXIMUM LEVEL OF FORCE that I can muster. I will do everything in my power to end your life if you step one foot into my house without my permission. Then we get this percieved solution of persuading the Govt with all its thuggery to step in and tell me what I can and can not do with my family, simply, because it is away that people can hide their immorality from themselves by having someone else do the dirty work. If one of you forced your way into my house, I would shoot, and I would shoot to kill. If the govt forced their way into my house, I will shoot at them just as fucking quickly. And I would probably die, but not without fighting to protect what is nearest and dearest to me.

I have more than one reason for not forcing my way into your house, and it isnt because you may or may not have a gun. My main reason for doing so is to try to set an example that we can coexist, even if we disagree, without Govt intervention, by respecting each others boundaries. There are limits to my rights. I dont have the Right to tell you (not your kids, but you) how to live your life. My rights are Soverign, which means they only govern myself and my castle (shitty little trailer). I dont believe I have the right to force any action out of someone else, even if their actions are considered criminal. I do not have the right to seek out private justice against anyone, even Murderers. That is what the Law is for, and should be the extent of the law. I dont have the right to kill a murderer, because that makes me just as bad as the murderer and takes justice into my own hands.

By trying to validate the reasons for outlawing spanking (whether enforced or not) is to forcibly come into my home and enforce a different set of beliefs, and I WILL match that with as much force as is necessary. Forcing your way into my home, either by Govt, or you kicking in my front door, to me, is about as far from Liberty as we can possibly get. Demanding the Govt tell someone how to raise their kids is the opposite of freedom. The solution to this is not to have more govt, or more excuses for govt to kick in my front door, the solution is to eliminate the need and want of government by not exceeding your Soverign Rights and trying to come into my home. I'll match that with me not exceeding My Soverign Rights by trying to stick my nose in your business.

For a guy in a shitty little trailer, you're alright by me. Just think if you were in a great big mansion....... :D
 
Libertarian doctrine, eh? What about this... I own my body and my wife owns hers, right? if we take part of me and part of her to create a child, that child is also our property and owned by both of us. We grew it just as we might have grown a tomato plant from a seed that we owned. This is a logical conclusion from the "fruits of one's labor" doctrine if I want to apply it universally. If you say that this is a special case and that I cannot own something that I grew, why couldn't there be a special case with regard to applying the NAP to small children? Some libertarian doctrines are absolute and others are not?

Okay then just like a tomato, trying smashing your child with a hammer. See what happens. You might find visually similar results, however, one will give you jail time for some odd reason. I mean you own the tomato so nobody will care if you kill it, and you own your baby so nobody should care if you kill it. That's just government coming into your house!!!!

Great tomato analogy there.

P.S Yes "Libertarian Doctrine". Doctrine just means a set of beliefs. It doesn't automatically mean Nazi shit.
 
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Okay then just like a tomato, trying smashing your child with a hammer. See what happens. You might find visually similar results, however, one will give you jail time for some odd reason. I mean you own the tomato so nobody will care if you kill it, and you own your baby so nobody should care if you kill it. That's just government coming into your house!!!!

Great tomato analogy there.

P.S Yes "Libertarian Doctrine". Doctrine just means a set of beliefs. It doesn't automatically mean Nazi shit.

I've given up arguing with child-hitters. You're not going to convince them that they have no right to violate their children's liberties.
 
Okay then just like a tomato, trying smashing your child with a hammer. See what happens. You might find visually similar results, however, one will give you jail time for some odd reason. I mean you own the tomato so nobody will care if you kill it, and you own your baby so nobody should care if you kill it. That's just government coming into your house!!!!

Great tomato analogy there.

P.S Yes "Libertarian Doctrine". Doctrine just means a set of beliefs. It doesn't automatically mean Nazi shit.

Godwin's law! FTW!

I've given up arguing with child-hitters. You're not going to convince them that they have no right to violate their children's liberties.

You libertarian "purists" either missed the point or chose to ignore it. If one libertarian doctrine has exceptions, then why couldn't others? This is a serious question.

I'm assuming you both take the position that parents don't own their children, yet the child is made up from the biological material of the parents. A strict application of the "fruits of one's labor" doctrine says that parents own their children. This is not my position of course, I'm challenging the universality of both doctrines. How do you claim that the NAP is universal but property rights are not?
 
Godwin's law! FTW!



You libertarian "purists" either missed the point or chose to ignore it. If one libertarian doctrine has exceptions, then why couldn't others? This is a serious question.

I'm assuming you both take the position that parents don't own their children, yet the child is made up from the biological material of the parents. A strict application of the "fruits of one's labor" doctrine says that parents own their children. This is not my position of course, I'm challenging the universality of both doctrines. How do you claim that the NAP is universal but property rights are not?

No, it doesn't. Each man's property right is in his own person. Your application violates self-ownership.
 
No, it doesn't. Each man's property right is in his own person. Your application violates self-ownership.

This is exactly my point. Children are an exception to the "fruits of one's labor" doctrine. A libertarian doctrine has an exception. If children are the exception in one doctrine, might they be an exception in another?
 
This is exactly my point. Children are an exception to the "fruits of one's labor" doctrine. A libertarian doctrine has an exception. If children are the exception in one doctrine, might they be an exception in another?

How are children an exception? The "fruits of one's labor", or property rights, don't apply to other people.
 
How are children an exception? The "fruits of one's labor", or property rights, don't apply to other people.

I own myself. All of my biological material is my property. If I combine my biological property with my wife's, we own it. For example, if we take some of my blood and some of hers, and mix it in a bowl, that's still our blood. Why would the mixing of biological property cause both my wife and I to lose ownership without explicitly giving it away or selling it?
 
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