Everyone. Greater division of labor --> more production --> lower prices --> higher standard of living
Right, and how much higher would that standard be if taxes and profits were not taken at each exchange?
First, I am amused that you chose to use the feminine pronoun.
Why, too invested in patriarchy?
Second, to the issue at hand; workers are paid the the discounted marginal revenue product of their labor.
Blah, blah, whaaa??
Look this is all just window dressing to the slavery.
We have to have workers to do the work, we don't need fancy dogma to keep them doing it.
If you can take whatever you want from the shelf would you agree to continue working?
I say the majority of workers recognize that what I offer is a better compensation package.
See: the history of the world in the last 200 years.
I'm seeing the people demand more from the feudal lords and the feudal lords scrambling for justifications to keep the sheeple in line.
I get that as a cog in the crapitalist machine you are too invested to just toss it all away and join me in calling for the revolution, but that doesn't change the facts, we have to have workers, we don't have to have banksters taking the lion's share.
If crapitalism was going to raise the average worker out of poverty why hasn't it?
Why is half the crapital in the hands of the one percent.
I say that is because the system is working as designed, ie, to concentrate control and wealth in the hands of the overlords.
In other words, you need a ratio between the value of medical services and the value of cat skinning services.
Yes, I would like to know that my 25 years of producing cars balances out my consuming of doctor's care, the food I ate, and the gas I burn in hot rodding my '72 'vette.
I think it is important to have a gauge of my consumption in relation to the wealth of the world.
I don't think that this gauge should replace dollars and be crapitalism under other means, but I do think that a guideline of this type is relevant.
Alas, no such system exists....
/sarcasm, I get it, but the system you defend comes with a permanent underclass that will always feed the dominant overclass while the overclass does nothing but consume.
My system necessitates that every single person on earth produce for themselves or be outed as the parasite on the labor of others that they are.
If workers can just take whatever they like from the common storehouse, why are you trying to figure out the value of their labor?
In order to ensure that I have not lived as a parasite on the labor of others.
I'm not looking for a tit for tat trade of my work for consumption, though some will, and others will contribute on the lines of Steve Jobs.
Under my proposal work hours drop to less than 25 hours a week for 20 years.
I don't have access to the numbers, but that is what was predicted by Kropotkin.
I thought you wanted it to be such that workers only got goods equal to the value of their labor?
Well, more accurate would be to say that I want the workers to produce an excess over what they consume.
This excess can be small, or large, depending on the commitment the person feels towards humanity as a whole.
If not, then you have another problem - why would anyone work at all? What's the incentive?
Somebody has to make the goods or there will be no goods, any reasonably sane person gets that, if they want goods then they have to contribute to the division of labor.
....so if the worker in your society doesn;t like the job, he can leave.
Absolutely.
In the change over period we can ask that people hold onto their current job until somebody comes to replace them.
As long as the current workers continue during the transition it can be seemless from here to there.
How is that different from capitalism?
Hmm, let's see,...how about no ruling overlords that consume lavishly without contributing anything, the end of commoditizing human beings, the end of poverty, and populating the nearby planets.
Imagine research and development not contingent of some greedy parasite letting go of some crumbs to support it.
Oh, of course. LOL
So, who produces these things? Can I just keep looking for a job forever, eating free food and travel ling around the world?
As an individual, yes, but somebody is going to have to work, perhaps not even a majority.
However don't be surprised if your neighbors put you in the class that the panhandlers currently occupy, because, that is what you would be.
Suppose you can do the work, but someone else can do it better - can you be fired?
Sure, if the collective that runs a collective endeavor doesn't want you around, why would you stay when you can seek out a collective that will welcome you with open arms?
Nobody likes the accounting department. Nothing new.
Well, I think it is more those that live from the work of the accounting department that are disliked.
I bet you could sell this to the Venezuelan government,their shelves are empty.
I doubt it, they have a parasite class ruling their country, too.
Well,maybe not sell it per se,what with the whole no money thing and all.
Perhaps they would put a few Maseratis on the take whatever you want shelf with your name on them.
There are people there that are exposing the people to the option,...
The people outside the united snakes are much more well versed in the social revolution because the flashy light box here doesn't include it in the sheeple's programming.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Oh man, now THAT is a hoot.
Glad I could help,....
1. I assure you there are more socialist nations in the world today than capitalist one.
Point to one country that doesn't have wages and fiat currencies issued by a central bank.
all hallmarks of socialism.
State socialism, not anarcho-socialism.
Do you know the difference?
So your founding premise is bollocks.
I'm afraid it's your premise that need more data.
People want to prosper as much as possible and gain as much as they can for expending their time and effort on things.
I'll be back, can't save draft
so, continuing,....
My proposal delivers that.
With the added benefit of decreasing the hours needed to retire to comfort.
3. You don't understand how scarcity works do you?
I understand it just fine, I think it is you that fails to understand that scarcity is by design to keep prices high and the workers producing.
Money isn't limited because of the Cabal's secret plan to crush the proletariat. Money is limited because resources are limited. Only so much exists to go around, money included.
My evidence to support my assertion.
It is you that doesn't understand the economics around you.
That is, until you go on a fiat system and then you have a ton of money and even fewer products.
I rest my case,....
The accounting department is a vital part of putting products of shelves.
Perhaps you should examine that statement.
What exactly did the accountant do?
Did he mine the metal? Did he refine the ore? Did he create the good, or ship it?
The accountant did nothing but bleat his support of a system that keeps him from actually having to produce something.
You keep talking as if products magically order themselves from raw materials and teleport onto shelves.
Did you read the proposal?
If you did your comprehension is poor.
Your "world" is a world full of lack, a lack of workers, a lack of goods, a lack of wealth, a lack of success, a lack of everything except worldwide shortages and poverty slavery.
Ok, now I know you didn't read, nor understand, what I have proposed.
For all your talk of dogma, you;re the only one producing a inviolable faith in something that has never been shown to exist.
Am I?
You just demonstrated an utter absence of any understanding of financial accounting.
Did I?
I strongly suggest you take a basic accounting class, that you may learn just how wholly mistaken you are on this point.
Why? So I too can parrot back the mindless blather of crapitalist economics?
No thanks, I would rather find alternatives to my (wage) slavery.
But don't take it from me - after all, I just have a graduate degree in all this.
That you can sit through the mind numbing hours of economics class while being able to retain what has been mindlessly parroted to you by a professor more interested in banging the blond beside you than finding an escape from is slavery is telling.
I can have a doctorate in economics and still not understand that wage labor is wage slavery to a ruling class, in fact, the whole time spent in obtaining my doctorate was indoctrination to not do exactly that.
At the moment, you have no correct understanding of its broader and truer role in the decision-making process.
Here, let me give you a short course in understanding your enslavement.
Here, and
here.
Take a few minutes to understand that you will always be at the mercy of those that can afford to employ you, you are not free.
Do you know the role of concepts such as "return on assets", "return on capital", and "return on investment"?
Indeed I do, I have quite the education in them, thanks.
THIS is a pretty good summary.
No it isn't, it's crap, designed to keep the dupes producing in the mines.
I would suggest you take the ego, zip it behind your fly as would be prudent, and try to learn something so you do not make a fool of yourself before people who know better.
That would probably work with an undergrad, but I know the truth and if you take the time to read those two links, so will you.
So why not sit back, crack a beer, unwrap yourself a bit so you don't burst an artery, and take in some truth from people with knowledge and experience?
I've already had enough economics classes, you will do what you have asked me to do and take the time to read the class I suggest for you?
I promise you will not regret it if you approach them sincerely.
Let me sincerely state that every dollar in your pocket is a dollar of somebody else's misery.
If you don't understand why then you do not understand crapitalist economics as well as you think.
only good thing about your proposal
It is a big one, huh?
Just ending rule by force would make my proposal unattainable. The differences would be slight at best.
I forced my self to read it. What a pile of garbage. She complains(looks for excuses) example: about difference between nationalization and socialization.
Ok, but you did catch where she said there was never any communism in Russia, didn't you?
If there is only 50 luxury boats and there is 200 people. Out of those 200 people 100 want luxury boat. Impossible to have "free access to it and use it without interference from anyone.". Replace boat with any other scarce resource.
Only in the absence of continued production.
She is uneducated in basics of economics... and she also doesnt know what communism is, or how it is reached:
I'll agree that in her time the structure that is Costco didn't exist, she couldn't seize it and put it to her ends, as can we.
If the old anarchists had lived until today they would alter their calls to action in light of the gains made in the interim, ie, the 40 hour week, medical insurance, retirement plans, all things advocated by the anarchists in the early 20th century that have now been realized.
Her call would be for the workers that make up the world wide distributors to seize those assests and put them to benefiting the people doing the work and not those exploiting the workers for their work.
Notably those economists that neither produce nor restrict their consumption to that attainable at minimum wage.
That famine was not some freak accident flaw in the system.
The 'business cycle' is a tried and true method of buying factories at fire sale prices.
[Since you didnt read "Das Kapital" or any books that communism is based on:
Well, at least not those based on thugs forcing people into compliance, ie, state communism.
[There is no communist state.
Huh?
Communism is stateless society.
Not in Bolshevik Russia it wasn't.
In order to get to that stateless society there needs to be 500 years of socialism during which selected "appropriate" people would be brainwashed, educated and conditioned to act in accordance with rules of communist stateless society.
I bet I could do it with 5 hours of network tv access split over a couple weeks.
[People are calling your idea communism because it is more or less communism.
Indeed it is, stateless communism.
Voluntary, not forced by thugs and overseen by a ruling class.
[Only difference so far is no use of force and somewhat warehouses.
Big difference, their warehouses were empty because you can't push a chain uphill or herd cats.
It is never a good argument when you admit that you are making things up as you go.
When is the truth not a good argument, when you are wrong.
I've made this proposal from the ingredients of the past, mostly from my own observations and applications of what the early anarchists wrote.
What I have proposed is both preferable to the status quo and attainable with simple ingredients.
Did ou read 1984. 2 Best books I have ever read.
Yes, when I was ten, my mother recommended it.
Do you know these?
The Iron Heel, by Jack London
Looking Backwards, by Edward Bellamy
And then there were none, by Eric Russell
Good reads for all of you here on this board, but I think you will enjoy them most, Barrex, they follow the thesis of 1984 and BNW.
Dude, your idea is communism without socialism/path to communism.
Umm,...yes, just as Proudhonne, Bakunin, and Kropotkin imagined.
Why would I want to slaughter people to force socialism on them when we can just skip to anarcho-communism directly, thereby missing all that killing?
Even Karl Marx understood that it is impossible to reach to your utopia the way you are suggesting it
That is because KM was an idiot and a tool of the oppressors.
He was financed by the Rothschilds and was tool of capitalist oppression.
The banksters have long understood the need for secrecy in their endeavors.
since he is grandfather of your utopia.
More like an evil stepdad,...
Besides: You base your utopia on belletristic novels...
I do use the novels to help people get an outline of the proposal, but they each come with flaws that kept them from being generally accepted as the answer to crapitalism.
My proposal comes without those flaws.
You have no luxury of different washing machines but you got luxury of '72 corvette (or other luxury car).
I'm sure you can order your washing machine to fit your needs, but they need not be reproduced by more factories than efficiency dictates.
Brand names and competition between them would subside.
We all agree that current situation is bad but you misdiagnosed the problem.
Ok, I'm listening for both your diagnosis and recommend treatments.
Which differs from my consumer how?
When you pay for a product I am sending signal to every single person in that chain how valuable thing that they do to me is.
The same signal I send when I take one from the shelf, I just eliminate the craptialist crap.
If the shelf is empty make another pencil.
[Millions of signals. It is impossible that your team of mathematicians could calculate it.
One signal, is the shelf full or empty.
How fast is supply meeting demand.
If a month's supply is consumed in a week production must increase.
You are making this harder then it needs to be, all in support of your own enslavement.
7 billion people on earth. 7 billion '72 corvettes (or equivalent luxury items).
How is that any different than today?
Only the accounting method is different.
Production will increase or decrease to suit demand.
If everybody on the planet wants a 'vette then the 'vette factory will be expanded to meet that demand, the excess can be taken from the Isuzu factory as nobody wants one of those.
Or whatever,....
What would you do with them?
Are you prepared to endure the derision of your neighbors along the lines that panhandlers endure today?
If you consume excessively you will be derided by your neighbors.
There is not enough resources (scarcity) to buy everyone 7 billion people 7 billion '72 corvettes.
We aren't buying, we are building, and whatever resources that would have gone into some other car can be diverted to the 'vette factory to meet demand.
As long as people don't demand impossible amounts then what I have proposed will float.
They won't do that for the same reason that they wear pants to get their haircut so they can mow the grass.
Remove prices and money and you remove communication between people.
So, give me another one of those can't be communicated except in the form of dollars?
They would produce pencils from silver instead of lumber... and it costs 10x more to excavate amd refine silver than it is to produce wood for pencil = misalocation of resources.
Only if idiocy takes the place of common sense.
When governments are involved there is mismanagement.
Well, you got that right,...
How can you say there was no communism in Russia if you didnt read Das Kapital?
Ok, you are correct, there was state communism which is indistinguishable from state crapitalism except in that the gov't controls the corporations in state communism and the corporations control the gov't under state crapitalism, they are mirror images of each other.
Emma, of course, meant that there was no communism in that the thugs forced the people to comply rather than the people complying because it met their needs.
["eat for free" crap. There is no free lunch.
You are correct, the bum eats at the expense of the worker.
However the reference was to the worker having to submit to the lowest wage because he has to be exploited to eat under crapitalism.
Whereas under my proposal he only has to suffer whatever derision is dished out by his neighbors.
You want to give some people "free lunch" and other people must work to provide that "free lunch".
Have you been taking lessons from Gunny?
You know that is a mischaracterization of what I have proposed.
You have tendency to ask loaded questions.
Indeed I do.
In reality like in your economy if people would choose any work they want nothing would be produced.
Which is it, do they choose the work they want or do they choose not to work at all.
If they choose the work they want then something is produced.
90% of the people would choose to be workers in cozy offices
Producing what, exactly?
I would choose to be beer taster.
I'm sure that position would be available to the folks that produce beer.
I doubt that that is all that you would do without being derided by your neighbors.
Also dude you bring feeling of unease in me with this kind of language:Jews have big noses, blacks are lesser race; bosses whores.
Just calling them as I see them. How many bosses do you see that don't have wives that put up with their crap for the money?
It is very very thin line between your attitude and "lets kill,rape, exterminate them.
Isn't that what they do to the workers?
If they defend their exploitation of the workers by force then force will have to be used to free the workers.
Not because we want it, but because they demand it.
When you read I pencil you will know that that money goes all the way to miners, farmers, truck drivers, factory workers etc
Right, just after the boss takes out his cut at each point.
What he spends it on is secondary.
Question: Next year. When will honest farmer wake up?
Ok, I agree, at some point the exploited wakes up and refuses his yoke.
But you'll notice that I have repeatedly stated that my system comes without thugs to take things from those that produce it.
You are referring to crony capitalism (state, politicians, lobbyists, special interest groups...).
Nope, I am referring to any system that leaves wages and owners in place.
Crapitalism always comes with an exploited class and an overclass.
Your entire system would change nothing then.
OMG, you must be getting tired.
...and you link to a comic book. So far it is belletristic and comic books. I meant did you read serious books.
Von Mises is as serious as you get in crapital economics, he just needed a dumbed down way to communicate his economics to a dumbed down population.
What mirror image? And nothing and no one led people to Von Mises.
I've explained the mirror image, and I am getting tired,....
Von Mises established the Austrian school,...
Government is part of the problem.
Well, at least we share that opinion.
Now you are just blabbering,....
You are proposing communism without violence. Same end result.
Well, minus a ruling class exploiting a laboring class,....
[My point is that you are 99% communist and a statist./QUOTE]
Now you are using the big lie tactic,....
When you read them I will answer any questionyou got.
I have read them, thanks.
Now answer why the shelves won't have products on the shelves if the workers continue to put them there.
Are you sure that is the argument you are looking to assert?
Stop pretending you're more evolved than the people who disagree with you, all you are is an economic illiterate.
Then why do you support a system that leaves wage slavery, and the ruling class paying the wages to the slaves, in place?
Keep walking down the voluntaryist path and you will come to where I am,....just as I did before you.
Capitalism cheerleaders - 183, Debunking angel - ZIP!
Umm,...I have at least one, me.
And yet we've "never had capitalism", and yet "capitalism has done more for the benefit of mankind than all other systems combined".
Hard to attack capitalism when it's responsible for everything good, and yet we've never had it.
Nice nest they've feathered for themselves. Easy to defend.
Economics isn't really that hard to understand. It all breaks down to basic theft in my opinion. Even the intricate nature of inflationary credit can be explained as theft and miscommunication of price. You don't need Mises. All Mises really did was re-label methodological individualism. Tried to nail down "thinking" and put a pretty bow on it.
So ultimately "debunking" something as intentionally nebulous as "capitalism" is futile. Because capitalism is just a label for methodological thinking about economics.
But we're oh so proud of our labels. And it's fun to beat up on the little guy and tell him to "fuck off, plebe" instead of sharing some of our precious knowledge.
Make that one and a half,....
Thanks, WW.
I sense that he is still at that age where he already knows everything.
Seems that I am not alone,....
If I want to barter I can do it based on my own values and needs. Unless, of course, you want to measure out my work as the highest level one can achieve. Then you got my vote.
Make that two and a half.
You work is the highest level one can achieve, it entitles you to one share of all the work.
I would presume that folks that contribute on the level of Steve Jobs, or Henry Ford would find very little derision from their neighbors regardless of how much they consume.
This is the same garbage that FDR did during the Great Depression. Fix prices and wages.
Well, except that I fix wages and prices at working.
The numbers will be along the lines of from the age of 20 to 45 for 25 hours a week and you get one share of the work with all the bells and whistles.
You can have whatever car, house, clothes, or electronics that strike your fancy.
Replace grandma with dog, then you'll have something. I don't think you ever had a dog though.
Yeah, they were crap factories, but if I get stable enough I'm sure I will get another one.
As for the dog's consumption what does he want?
His love is worth some level of consumption.
Ok, no time again to proof read, you get it the way it came out,...
