Let me state here for the record that my proposal comes without an enforcement arm, all interactions are voluntary.
only good ghing about your proposal
I have seen multiple references to communism failing in the past and I posted this link,...
Emma Goldman,....No communism in Russia,
I forced my self to read it. What a pile of garbage. She complains(looks for excuses) example: about difference between nationalization and socialization.
When a certain thing does not belong to an individual or group, it is either nationalized or socialized. If it is nationalized, it belongs to the state; that is, the government has control of it and may dispose of it according to its wishes and views. But when a thing is socialized, every individual has free access to it and use it without interference from anyone.
ROFL. Semantics. Nacionalized/socialized. Nation is social structure.
If there is only 50 luxury boats and there is 200 people. Out of those 200 people 100 want luxury boat. Impossible to have "free access to it and use it without interference from anyone.". Replace boat with any other scarce resource.
She is uneducated in basics of economics... and she also doesnt know what communism is, or how it is reached:
—those “constructive” social and economic policies of Bolshevik Communism which resulted in the fearful famine in 1921.
ROFLMAO. That famine was not some freak accident flaw in the system. It was planed and it is a feature in the system. Since you didnt read "Das Kapital" or any books that communism is based on:
There is no communist state. Communism is stateless society. In order to get to that stateless society there needs to be 500 years of socialism during which selected "appropriate" people would be brainwashed, educated and conditioned to act in accordance with rules of communist stateless society. During those 500 years all backward races, nations and people (Pole, Irish , Scotsmen, Roma, best workers, entrepreneurs, owners, rich etc.) are to be exterminated.
If people are lazy to read one book they could at least read short summary of 10 planks of communism. There is no shame not reading something but there is bug shame in preaching something you dont know anything about (systems of government or lack of it).
People are calling your idea communism because it is more or less communism. Only difference so far is no use of force and somewhat warehouses.
LOL. Google terms that he wrote. Study them.
Do you seriously think that having money and exploiting the poor will count as a bonus when the karmic consciousness comes to collect his toll?
I am making things up as I go, I've had too.
Have you heard anybody else say anything even remotely close to what I am proposing?
Here is a library that contains the seeds that I am planting.
The Conquest of Bread, by Kropotkin is a good first read, but
Emma Goldman's speeches keep it concise and on point.
It is never a good argument when you admit that you are making things up as you go.
Brave New World was an eye opener.
Did ou read 1984. 2 Best books I have ever read.
If you want the closest outline
Looking Backwards is it. I think the author gets bogged down in the details better left to the locals to decide for themselves, but the outline looks good.
You wonder why your idea is 90% communism? Looking Backwards :...
Now, Bellamy, of course, was familiar with the pioneer work of Marx. And that part of it which he liked he took over...I am among those who first became interested in Socialism through reading "Looking Backward"...
Dude, your idea is communism without socialism/path to communism. Even Karl Marx understood that it is impossible to reach to your utopia the way you are suggesting it... and he would know a thing or two about it... since he is grandfather of your utopia.
Besides: You base your utopia on belletristic novels...
Please point to your perceived contradiction, I work hard at eliminating those thanks to Ayn Rand.
You have no luxury of different washing machines but you got luxury of '72 corvette (or other luxury car).
I am not trolling you, I am completely serious, as long as the workers keep working the banksters can fall in a lake and nobody would know the difference until the looked up from the yolks on their plows and realized that they could stop playing cow on the farm.
The Monkey Master, simply replace 'grows on trees', with 'we make it in the factory', and you have it.
Except Monkey Master is STATE (politicians, state employees...) and special interest groups (lobbyists, some banks, war profiteering military industrial complex) and not owners of factories, business etc. We all agree that current situation is bad but you misdiagnosed the problem.
The evidence doesn't support your assertion, does the person responsible for reordering goods for the shelf at walmart first ask the accounting department if there is money to reorder or is the accounting done separately and subsequently?
Empty shelves, or whatever reorder point you want to set, ie, 1 week supply, 1 month supply, etc,... are not contingent on the accounting department's efficiency.
Expand your chain of "reordering". In first link there is miner, farmer, then those who transport, then those who melt, refine and process, then those who transpor it again......before last link in a chain there is your wareohouse worker...last chain is buyer.
When you pay for a product I am sending signal to every single person in that chain how valuable thing that they do to me is. When I buy pencil for 1 dollar, that dollar is distributed do every link in a chain. That signal signals miner that it is viable and needed to mine for iron, copper, graphite etc.; farmer that it is needed and viable to produce food for miners; truck driver that it is viable and needed to transport food to mines etc...
I suggest you read:
I pencil.
It will show you how to produce one simple thing needs imput labor and know-how of millions. Millions of signals. It is impossible that your team of mathematicians could calculate it.
Well, I'd rather have a '72 corvette.
But even if everybody wanted a (iphone) then we make them. Perhaps there is a backlog, but just as goods are made available today, if you have the money, so too will goods be available when the 1% are not the only people with access to them.
7 billion people on earth. 7 billion '72 corvettes (or equivalent luxury items). No way that everyone can have luxury item. You would need to shift resources from everything and just produce '72 corvettes. No food, no water, no electricity, no medicine... and that is with only one luxury item. I want at least 10.
What resource can you not have if you have the money?
Name one thing that money won't buy you.
When I said: There is not enough resources (scarcity) to buy everyone 7 billion people 7 billion '72 corvettes. Even if it was there would be better ways to use them than it is to produce 7 billion '72 corvettes.
Only if the people mismanaged things, they are not mismanaging today why would access to luxury items change that?
They are not mismanaging today because of prices - a way that millions communicate in economy by simply buying and selling. Remove prices and money and you remove communication between people. Miners wouldnt know how much and what to mine, wheater mining is profitable/viable. Producers wouldnt know cost of mining silver or producing wood/lumber. They would produce pencils from silver instead of lumber... and it costs 10x more to excavate amd refine silver than it is to produce wood for pencil = misalocation of resources.
Like I wrote: 7 billion people on earth; 7 billion '72 corvettes...impossible
When governments are involved there is mismanagement.
No, they didn't.
What you had was state crapitalism, or fascism.
In what is currently labeled communism the state controls the corporations and the slaves are paid a fraction of the value of their labor in currency.
In what is currently labeled crapitalism the corporations control the state and the slaves are paid a fraction of the value of their labor in currency.
They are mirror images of each other and both are fascism.
Their is no communism in Russia, there never was.
How can you say there was no communism in Russia if you didnt read Das Kapital? You and that article that you are linking to are wrong. I explained it above.
It is realistic to believe that folks will build me a Maserati, but I doubt anybody would build anybody a death star without an exploitive economic system to entice the slaves into doing the labor.
No it is not. Again:7 billion people on earth. 7 billion '72 corvettes...impossible
Do you think that the (wage) slaves would work in the arms industry if they could eat for free?
"eat for free" crap. There is no free lunch. Someone had to pay for it... or in your case work for it. This nonsense about "wage slave"... Ill play it: Why are you for slavery?
You want to give some people "free lunch" and other people must work to provide that "free lunch". You are keeping real slaves. Slaves that must work for your "warehouse economy" to produce "free lunches" for others.
If they were free to chose any labor at all and not just the locally available job at the only factory in town do you think they would create the tools that kill others?
You have tendency to ask loaded questions. In reality like in your economy if people would choose any work they want nothing would be produced. 90% of the people would choose to be workers in cozy offices. I would choose to be beer taster.
Yes, and how much stuff can they pile up before they realize that stuff isn't making them happy and begin to give it away?
Lets say your utopian economy can produce 100 stuff that people can pile up before it collapses. In that case they could pile up 10000000 stuff before they start thinking that it doesnt make them happy. This means your utopia would collapse 100ts of times. People have unlimited needs and wants and resources are scarce!!!!
The only truly valuable resources is time, and isn't it better to use that time to do things that make you happy,
Yes.
rather than have to spend it creating enough value for the boss to buy his whore a bracelet so that what he allows you to keep of the value that you create can buy you some food?
Seriously?
And you fucked it up again with another loaded question. Also dude you bring feeling of unease in me with this kind of language:Jews have big noses, blacks are lesser race; bosses whores. It is very very thin line between your attitude and "lets kill,rape, exterminate them. I know you are saying that in your utopia there wouldnt be use of force but you are using language and rhetoric that Karl Marx used for those groups that were hunted down by communists and Hitler used when he wanted to "deal" with "Jewish problem".
When you buy something profit doesnt stay at "the boss" and his whore. When you read I pencil you will know that that money goes all the way to miners, farmers, truck drivers, factory workers etc. "The boss" is organizing people and in free market economy he gets payed for it. He is needed part of economy just like any other person.
Yes, and the fact that we can't keep a week's supply of goods on the shelf says we need to ramp up production.Empty shelves allocates resources in the absence of dollars, the need for dollars is dogma in the crapitalist religion, all bow to the $.
Explained above in more details but I will clarify it again. In free market you get millions of signals just to produce pencil and you would replace that with:"no goods =need goods= ramp up production". This is not nearly sufficient interaction/communication for efficiently allocate resources.
Can you link to that?
Or tell it to me?
I haven't been able to find it.
In your (or communist) utopia there were 2 farmers. You(or your mathematicians or communist government) gave each a farm. Both farms had a house and a field. Honest farmer was waking every morning at dawn-5 am. Second one was lazy and would wake up at noon. Honest one was working entire day and lazy one was working only 1 hour every day. Autumn came and honest farmer had plentiful harvest but lazy one had almost nothing. Then you (your mathematician squad or communist government) came and said "we are all equal"; "we are better than capitalists" yada yada yada... and you took everything from honest farmer and split it into 3 equal parts. 1/3 was returned to honest farmer, 1/3 was given to lazy farmer and 1/3 was taken by you and your mathematician squad (or communist government).
Question: Next year. When will honest farmer wake up?
Yes, the whole world is ruled by the top one percent of crapitalists, and their flunkies, they think that they have no choice because they have not been made aware that they are just
monkeys on the plantation.
You are referring to crony capitalism (state, politicians, lobbyists, special interest groups...). We agree that there is a problem. You are misdiagnosing it and prescribing completely wrong remedy.
I haven't proposed changing that.
You can order what you want, you can pile it to the top of world.
Your neighbors may look at you askance, and if you are not too much of a jerk they will defend you right to do so.
But, could you look yourself in the mirror knowing that you took the work of thousands just to please your greed?
As long as you don't destroy the stuff it will be there after you are gone and it will get recycled.
The actual consumption involved of a product that exists after your death is minimal.
Lets say that there is only 1% of people like me (the whole world is ruled by the top one percent of crapitalists). Your entire system would change nothing then. 1% would still get all the luxury while everyone else works for that luxury... and I know that there would be more than 1% of the people joining those old 1%. I know because I saw it in communist Yugoslavia.
Yes, I have read V
on Mises.
...and you link to a comic book. So far it is belletristic and comic books. I meant did you read serious books.
Now, having lived under a communist regime you understand how controlling sources of information is critical to maintaining control, correct?
Yes.
Why do you figure that the mirror image of communism has led the people to Von Mises?
Why don't they lead you to Kropotkin or Bakunin?
What mirror image? And nothing and no one led people to Von Mises.
Yes, Von Mises presents a better picture than the status quo, but he keeps you (wage)slaving on the farm.
You have not been presented with an alternative to feudal serfdom under the 1%, only a choice in who the 1% will be.
Look where they are directing you away from if you want to escape your masters.
Looking to their solution will not lead to your freedom.
Funny.The closer countries are to free market the more prosperous they are. The closer they are to communism (and your utopia is 90% communism) worse they are of.
Yes you do.This is basic of it and you got it all wrong.
Without leisure to contemplate alternatives I would never realize that I am a slave.
Religions were invented by old men that wanted to get laid, they were the only member of the tribe with the leisure and motivation to invent them.
Ask yourself why crapitalist economics wasn't invented as a 'science' until after the anarchists were winning the hearts and minds of the workers at the end of the 19th century.
Your words:
Do you seriously think that having money and exploiting the poor will count as a bonus when the karmic consciousness comes to collect his toll?
No religion and you have religion.
Little humor:
If that were true why does the gov't have to create a minimum wage?
Government soednt have to create min. wage. In fact minimum wages are hurting people. Government is part of the problem.
Don't you think that any business man would be silly to pay more in wages than he had to?
Yes. If he pays too little without government workers would simply leave to higher bidder or just start their own business. Licensing, regulation and other government programs make that very hard.
You are bloddy statist.
If you can find somebody that doesn't paint houses for a living you may get a price lower than the market price, but you can bet just as all the professional house painters know the bottom price for painting a house, so too do the owners know the bottom wage to pay for factory workers.
Check out starting pay in your area, it doesn't matter if you work in a factory and create 1000's of dollars in value or if you work in a warehouse moving those products around the starting pay will not vary by more than a dollar or two.
You completely missed the point. Business owners who want to starve workers will get bankrupt because other business will hire those workers.
And what is tyranny's favorite economic system?
It sure isn't
anarchism, or
anarcho-communism.
You are statist.
Yet you defend the very system that denies that child bread unless his father submits to exploitation?
My system would give him not just bread for free, but the doctors, too.
Try get a doctor without submitting to corporate exploitation today.
Ok, now I know you haven't been paying attention, I don't deny anybody anything, it is crapitalism that requires work for food.
Again, that wasn't communism, it was fascism.
Lol.
Ok, what is your point, I am not proposing fascism?
No. You are proposing communism without violence. Same end result.
No men with guns are needed to keep my proposal as the preferred economic system, the people freely choose it or it doesn't happen.
doesn't happen.
And your point is?
If Marx would have advocated the free choice of the people in following his advice perhaps we would all be Marxist, but he didn't, he sent men with guns to control the people and tyranny was the result.
How is that any different than crapitalism?
My point is that you are 99% communist and a statist. You equate crony capitalism with free market. Learn the difference.
Sorry dude. I simply cant go on. Educate your self. Read at least:
Economics in one lesson- Henry Hazlit
The Law- Frederick Bastiat
Road to Serfdom- Friedrich Hayek
When you read them I will answer any questionyou got. I read those idiots that you suggested. Seriously. If you want to pretend that you know what is right choice you need to know both sides. When you get to know my side then we will talk. I know your side and your arguments. You dont know basics. I hope you read those books and that we will continue our argument after that.
