Debunking Crapitalism

[specsaregood]

/.

 

[Ronin Truth]

[h=2]What is Capitalism?[/h]Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market.

http://capitalism.org/

 

[Henry Rogue]

That isn't communism.
Here is a report from the time period from a person that was on the ground and had a real good idea of what communism is.

So did Yuri Maltsev http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mb5555PCfU But Yuri doesn't call it communism either, He calls it socialism. I call it statism.

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.

Yep, created by the state.

What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

That's why I included Frank Roosevelt. Roosevelt controlled the corporations. Funny how dictators get democratically elected.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Hey, what a deal. An absolutely free book titled, "Capitalism - A Treatise on Economics", only 1,097 pages.

http://www.capitalism.net/Capitalism/CAPITALISM_Internet.pdf

Enjoy during your non-slave labor, free time!

 

[Henry Rogue]

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

How are you going to force people to not create and use money, without paying your enforcers? Are you going to pay them with food? Who are you going to steal the food from?

 

[Barrex]

Before you answer any of my question could you please explain with what would you replace current system? What would happen with people who refuse to join your new system? What books did you read regarding systems of governments and society?

Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.

??? What? Customer is producer of some other good that he produces and then exchanges for other products...I have inability to produce DEATH STAR (real functioning one. Big as a moon. With lazors, death rays and my own Storm Troopers). Capitalism is exploiting that i am not able to produce it by my self.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

Are you for abolishing all currencies (dollars, euros, gold, silver)? Barter? If I make shoes and want to exchange them for bread, how would I do it without currency/money?

Not exactly.
We work because we don't want to be parasites on the other workers.

Riiight....Inability to produce time machine makes me unable to invite you to my homeland 30 years ago. Yugoslavia. People "don't want to be parasites on the other workers"...lol... everyone works, everyone gets payed... doesnt matter did you sleep entire day at work or worked hard...everybody gets payed... Accountants in a firm make plans for future production but cleaning ladies dont like their new plans because accountants want to shift production toward dirtier process. If this happens cleaning ladies will have a lot more work to do. Vote is held and since there are a lot more cleaning ladies than there is people in accounting + director cleaning ladies won the vote. Factory continued to produce product that no one wanted to buy. TRUE STORY!

Somebody has to make the cars, shoes, houses, etc,...the most efficient way to do this is by the division of labor.

Who decides who divides labor? What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

The miner mines and the refiner refines because they know the farmer will grow the food and the trucker will distribute it.

I got farm. I will not farm if I dont get payed for it. I dont care if my produce is going to be distributed. I will not produce if i am not getting payed. What I produce I will eat my self and sell it on black market. What would you do with me?

I would assert that the mathematicians will devise some measure so that we can...

Pretty big assertion. When people make those kinds of assertions millions die. Few mathematicians (small amount of people) deciding who works what, where and how much? How would you call your new system? Oligarchy? Kingdom? Tyranny?

The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That having been said, how do we quantify grandma's giving of the one thing we all need, unconditional love?

I will assert that you didnt read any Austrian economists. If you did you would know that value is subjective.


P.s.
Dont take my words personally I am not attacking you I am attacking your argument.

 

[Henry Rogue]

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.
What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

Private markets plus state overlords create fascism in one direction or another.
Private markets, voluntarily exchange, prosperity, creativity, freedom.
State authority, mandate, murder, destruction, slavery, misery.
Conclusion? Get rid of markets and keep the state authority.
smh

 

[Ronin Truth]

Are there other kinds of angels besides FreeBorn?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

Corporatism is wage slavery. Capitalism is prosperity. The Austrian School provides the fundamentals and the data to best fashion that kind of capitalism to enhance general prosperity.

 

[FreeBornAngel]

The majority the waking hours of it is doing what I want. The rest are merely a means to a preferred and preferable chosen end.
If you live to be 60, you sleep for 20 years.

Right, and how much more could you sleep if you didn't have to work on Saturdays to supply the shareholders' profits?

Eliminating the federal reserve (dollars) and allowing people to trade in gold, silver and bitcoin would be a great start. You need money to create market signals.

No, you don't need money for market signals, reorders from the warehouses supply all the signals needed.

Garbage men make good money because nobody wants the job, but it needs to get done and so there is a demand for it. If you took away that incentive, who is going to want to come pick up everybody's garbage? Nobody.

Not exactly, some people would do because they like the work, others would do it because it needs to be done and nobody else is stepping up.
When money is removed from the equation other motivations will suffice.
Why do you cut your hair and wear pants to work? Assuming you do,...
Perhaps it would be determined that one needed to spend x number of hours in garbage collecting to balance out the consumption of goods.
If absolutely nobody would do the work then the work won't get done.
The learning curve will serve as an example of why things are done the way things are done.

I do, do it myself and yes, I would pay someone else to do it, if my time is better spent doing something else. It's called division of labor.
Employers are the employees' customers.

I agree that dividing the work is ideal, but I don't agree that the 1% contribute on the scale that their compensation indicates.
If you exploit workers for your own profit then you are a parasite on their labor.
So, you are saying that the wage slave is exploiting the boss?

sheeeit; I've met some mean ass grandmas in my day. mine certainly didn't understand the concept of unconditional love.

LOL, not all will qualify,....

http://capitalism.org/

Right, said like a true believer.
Tell me, if my dad drinks up all his money and I start with nothing do I have a choice but to submit to the lowest wage paid for my skill set?
The crapitalist can afford to wait for me to get hungry enough to agree to his exploitation, whereas I need to eat today and can only do that by agreeing to work for less than the value of my labor.
Is that a free market for my labor?

Crapitalism charges the highest price while paying the lowest wage.
The rich can afford to weight for wages to drop to their mutually agreed upon level while the poor must submit today or starve.
Just as no senator will be cleaning any toilets because he has enough money through other means the homeless have no choice but to accept minimum wage for cleaning the senator's toilet.
This is crapitalism at it's finest.

So did Yuri Maltsev http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mb5555PCfU But Yuri doesn't call it communism either, He calls it socialism. I call it statism.

Any system that needs armed thugs to keep it in place is not worthy of the label, free.

Funny how dictators get democratically elected.

Yes, as is how the wage slaves have embraced their slavery.

How are you going to force people to not create and use money, without paying your enforcers? Are you going to pay them with food? Who are you going to steal the food from?

I won't have to, the people will embrace what I propose because they can see that my system rewards them better than does crapitalism.
Think how much less you will have to work if you don't have to work overtime to satisfy the greed of the shareholder.
The shareholders will have to become productive under my proposal, they will no longer get something for nothing.
How many hours less will you work if the boss's wife has to work to get her own tennis bracelet?
How many hour less will you have to work to if she has to produce enough widgets to justify her Mercedes.
Crapitalism requires that you work long enough to justify your own wages and the profit needed to buy her these things.

Before you answer any of my question could you please explain with what would you replace current system?

Ok, imagine that the workers working today continue to work for the short term future.
Now instead of paying these workers in vouchers to the company store they just take what they need to keep producing, ie, supper, clothing, housing.
Now imagine that we transition to dividing the work among those between the ages of 20 and 45.
Anyone between these ages should look locally for work.
Anyone that wants to show up should be put to a task that they can manage to perform satisfactorily.
This can be managed online.
If more labor is needed in the mine then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
If more labor is needed in the factory then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
Over the few weeks it takes to settle things down the unemployed become employed and those not producing anything become productive.
The people involved in banking and accounting need to become employed in a task that contributes to the goods on the shelves.
We need workers to make the goods that we want to have.
We don't need banksters and accountants to make that happen.
We do need the banksters and accountants to help with the added demand for big screen tvs.
Anyone between the age of 20 and 45 should be engaged in productive work.
Those over the age of 45 can continue to produce or retire, it is up to them.
Over the next 6 months where additional labor is required to meet increased demand will shake itself out.
Those areas of over production will be taken out of production and those workers engaged in something else, ie, do we have to have 30 different models of washing machines? Why are we doing washing at home when the factory can do it more efficiently?
How many washing machines we need for a six month supply will be created and the excess workers moved to something else, maybe cars.
Food, clothing and shelter will, of course, be priorities.
Now before you go off the rails and start thinking centrally planned dictatorship dystopias, the locals will have to fend for themselves, if you are in an area that can't feed, clothe, and shelter it's self then you and your neighbors will have to reach out regionally for assistance, if none materializes then they will have to seek out an area that can absorb them.

Really what I replace the current system with is the current system minus dollars, bosses, and banksters.
We already have the workers supplying the shelves I just add to their numbers the extraneous workers employed in satisfying the greed of the crapitalists, ie, the managers, accountants, banksters, and shareholders.

[Customer is producer of some other good that he produces and then exchanges for other products...

Yes, that he exchanges at a discount to the 'free' market.
Nobody sells into the market unless he makes a profit.
Nobody employs anybody unless he makes a profit on that employee.
Nobody buys anything unless the seller makes a profit on the sale.
What I propose puts the goods into the warehouse and the consumer's house at cost, minus the profits at each stage of distribution.

[Are you for abolishing all currencies (dollars, euros, gold, silver)? Barter? If I make shoes and want to exchange them for bread, how would I do it without currency/money?

Yes, abolish all mediums of exchange, they have led us into poverty for the majority of workers.
If you make shoes you give them up to the distributions system and draw out what you need to keep producing them, ie, food, clothing, and shelter. In addition you can order whatever is available on the shelf, if you want a Maserati you order one, if demand outstrips supply then more workers will be added to the Maserati factory, really it will be no different than what happens when apple comes out with a new iphone, supply is created to meet demand.
Not everybody will want one of everything.
When people die their goods will still exist for the most part.
If you leave a working car then what has been consumed?, the labor that went into creating that car still exists.

TRUE STORY!

Then shame on the people that let laziness get in the way of producing a better product.
Do you think that if more cleaning ladies had been added the outcome would have been different?
Did the cleaning ladies have access to whatever consumer goods they desired?
Could they order a Maserati from the shelf?

Who decides who divides labor? What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

It is based on the honor system.
There will be no central planner saying do this or else.
I would presume that local busybodies would supply enough of that without outside help.
Your neighbors will know if you are bum, or not, and they will treat you accordingly.

What happens to me (those who dont want to participate) and my property?

You get to keep your stuff, but why you wouldn't participate is beyond me.
Just as the 1% get to keep their stuff, if they can keep their lives.

I will not farm if I dont get payed for it.

Ah, but you are paid, what do you want?
Order it from the net, perhaps you will have to wait some period of time, but you will get it as a matter of pride of the workers in that factory.
The 'pay' that you get is one share of the work done.

What I produce I will eat my self and sell it on black market

What black market?
The only 'market' I see surviving is the antiquities market.
When you can order ANYTHING to be delivered to your door how do you trade illicitly?
Without cash what will you trade it for? Any consumer good you want will be delivered to you as a matter of worker pride.

Pretty big assertion.

Not really, the math nerds need to do something productive, it might as well be something useful.
An objective measure that says to have a car, drive it 10,000 miles a year, and the maintenance required to leave a serviceable car when you die will require x number of hours in a factory, or x number of hours in nursing home, or whatever combination you choose to make.

When people make those kinds of assertions millions die.

Only in a world ruled by force, my proposal is 100% voluntary, until the people agree that what I propose rewards their labor better than crapitalism then the idea will not sell.

Few mathematicians (small amount of people) deciding who works what, where and how much? How would you call your new system? Oligarchy? Kingdom? Tyranny?

Nobody tells you where to work or how much. Your pride at not being a parasite on the workers determines how much you work and where.
It is better to carry a bum(reflects poorly on him) than to enslave him(reflects poorly on me).

I call it utopia.

The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That is the proposal.

I will assert that you didnt read any Austrian economists.

I was a die hard crapitalist that couldn't figure out why the anarchists said 'Kill crapitalism before crapitalism kills you.' until I read what Emma Goldman and Pitr Kropotkin had to say about it.

Dont take my words personally I am not attacking you I am attacking your argument.

I bet you can tell me what I mean when I say the social revolution, ask somebody tomorrow and if they can tell you i'll eat my hat.

Private markets plus state overlords create fascism in one direction or another.
Conclusion? Get rid of markets and keep the state authority.
smh

The proposal is totally voluntary, unless the people recognize that my proposal rewards them for their labor better than the status quo it will never come to fruition.

Are there other kinds of angels besides FreeBorn?

Yes, there are those that are born into crapitalism and wage slavery.

Corporatism is wage slavery. Capitalism is prosperity. The Austrian School provides the fundamentals and the data to best fashion that kind of capitalism to enhance general prosperity.

So, you are saying that the Austrian school pays me $100 in wages when I create $100 in widgets?
Wage slavery under ideal conditions is still slavery.
If a portion of the value that my labor creates accrues to anybody except me the system is exploitive and I am a slave.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

So, you are saying that the Austrian school pays me $100 in wages when I create $100 in widgets?

You are confusing an economic Theory of General Relativity with the actual actions of individual persons participating in an economy.

Wage slavery under ideal conditions is still slavery.
If a portion of the value that my labor creates accrues to anybody except me the system is exploitive and I am a slave.

You are also neglecting to account for the value of the facilities in which the widgets are produced, the cost of the equipment necessary to produce the widgets, the labor of the sales team to convince people to buy the widgets, the labor of the accounting department to bill customers, track revenue, and pay employees, the cost of research and development to create the widget....

Should all of these people work for free? Some kind of chattel slaves to your 'ideal worker?'

 

[mad cow]

the people will embrace what I propose because they can see that my system rewards them better than does crapitalism.

They will put your face on all the coins!

 

[GunnyFreedom]

They will put your face on all the coins!

lmao

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mad cow again.

 

[HVACTech]

http://capitalism.org/

you are SO clever! quoting yourself...

uh, what is Capital?

 

[Ronin Truth]

Right, and how much more could you sleep if you didn't have to work on Saturdays to supply the shareholders' profits?

20 years of sleep out of 60 is much more than adequate, for me. I'd actually prefer requiring much less sleep.

I don't work Saturdays and BTW I'm a shareholder too. Is this a great system or what?

Right, said like a true believer.
Tell me, if my dad drinks up all his money and I start with nothing do I have a choice but to submit to the lowest wage paid for my skill set?
The crapitalist can afford to wait for me to get hungry enough to agree to his exploitation, whereas I need to eat today and can only do that by agreeing to work for less than the value of my labor.
Is that a free market for my labor?

Absitively!

So, ya got a crappy dad. BOO HOO! You really deserved a better one.

What exactly do you believe you are entitled to? Life hands you a lemon, then make lemonade (and sell it at a profit).

The issue is NOT what the Crapitalist can afford, but rather what is your labor worth to him. Who told you what your labor is worth?

(Remember no Labor Theory of Value, allowed.) What else do YOU buy that is priced based solely on what you can afford?

1) Choose the wage your skill set is worth to someone else, create something the market place wants, beg on the street or die.

2) Improve your skill set, and therefore your worth in the marketplace.


Yes, there are those that are born into crapitalism and wage slavery.

Doesn't sound any too angelic to me. They need to ask God for a do over.

//

 

[Barrex]

What books did you read regarding systems of governments and society? I return to this because your arguments are full of holes and misconceptions. You get basics of free markets completely wrong. You managed to contradict your self in so short explanationof your utopia. I got the feeling that you are trooling us and making thins as you go.

No, you don't need money for market signals, reorders from the warehouses supply all the signals needed.

Yea warehouses would send all the wrong signals. You cant have real knowledge of real supply and demand in your "warehouse economy" and therefore you cant guide distribution of sparse resources. Everyone wants luxurious items (Maserati) and since resources are sparse there would be miss-allocations and scarcity would result in shortages of everything from food to luxury items. . Communists all over the world tried this and failed.

You cant base economic system on wishes (you wish Maserati/Death Star and you get it). People have unlimited needs and wants and resources are scarce. In free market economy every single person is voting how resources are allocated by interacting, buying and selling.

Not exactly, some people would do because they like the work, others would do it because it needs to be done and nobody else is stepping up.
When money is removed from the equation other motivations will suffice.

It wouldnt suffice. It was proven that it wouldnd and that it would lead to disaster. Communists all over the world it and failed.

Do you know story of 2 farmers where one wakes every morning at 5 am and other one at noon?

I agree that dividing the work is ideal, but I don't agree that the 1% contribute on the scale that their compensation indicates.
If you exploit workers for your own profit then you are a parasite on their labor.
So, you are saying that the wage slave is exploiting the boss?

You make wrong point. 1%-ers are not only investors/owners of businesses. Everyone with retirement fun is one, everyone who pays anyone is one. Workers invest time and owners (1% are part of that group) invest resources. When supply of labour provided by workers and demand for that labour meet - price of workers time and skills is agreed upon and owners start projects, production etc. Also savings drive the economy. If I work hard and save 1 million dollars (or goods that are priced 1 million dollars) I get to decide what to do with it and not some warehouse entity or process.

Tell me, if my dad drinks up all his money and I start with nothing do I have a choice but to submit to the lowest wage paid for my skill set?
The crapitalist can afford to wait for me to get hungry enough to agree to his exploitation, whereas I need to eat today and can only do that by agreeing to work for less than the value of my labor.
Is that a free market for my labor?

No, that is not free market for your labour. Again: What books did you read regarding systems of governments and society? What economic books did you read? Any Austrian economists? This is basic of it and you got it all wrong.

You get the job that you can. If your skill set is valued x amount of dollars you get the job that pays x amount of dollars. Investor (you could stop insulting by reffering to me and most of other forum memebers as CRAPITALIST) cant afford to wait for you to get hungry. Time is a resource and waiting is waisting time. Also when waiting to use other resources to invest into a project just because of you would be stupid.
Again: Value is subjective. Value of your labour is what you can get for it in a market. If one investor wants to wait till workers (you) are starving he will never employ anyone because other capitalist will hire workers (you). Supply and demand works both ways: Workers bid for wages and investors bid on workers skill sets and time.

Crapitalism charges the highest price while paying the lowest wage.
The rich can afford to weight for wages to drop to their mutually agreed upon level while the poor must submit today or starve.

ROFL. Again: Supply and demand works both ways: Workers bid for wages and investors bid on workers skill sets and time. And again you call investors "the rich", "1%"... Now you are making assumption that almost all poeple are involved in conspiracy to "drop wages to their mutually agreed upon level". ROFL. I want to hira a guy to paint my house. All people who own anything that needs painting meet somewhere and decided to wait till all painters are starving? If one or group of people waits for price of labour to drop to 1 cent per hour because they are not hiring until workes ar starving, then they would never hire anyone. Why? Someone else would hire those workers and make profit while those who wait would just spend time and other resources waiting. sooner or later they would spend all of their resources.

You are giving example of the extreem end of demand for labor curve= people who are unrealisticly low wages for their workers.
I give you extreem example of supply curve= people who expect to be paid 1 trillion dollars for 5 min of painting.

Those 2 never meet and never happen.

Just as no senator will be cleaning any toilets because he has enough money through other means the homeless have no choice but to accept minimum wage for cleaning the senator's toilet.
This is crapitalism at it's finest.
Any system that needs armed thugs to keep it in place is not worthy of the label, free.

From what book did you read that this is free market? This is not capitalism or free market. This is tyranny.

I won't have to, the people will embrace what I propose because they can see that my system rewards them better than does crapitalism.
Think how much less you will have to work if you don't have to work overtime to satisfy the greed of the shareholder.
The shareholders will have to become productive under my proposal, they will no longer get something for nothing.
How many hours less will you work if the boss's wife has to work to get her own tennis bracelet?
How many hour less will you have to work to if she has to produce enough widgets to justify her Mercedes.
Crapitalism requires that you work long enough to justify your own wages and the profit needed to buy her these things.

Crapitalism requires that you work long enough to justify your own wages-yes
and the profit needed to buy her these things.- NO. NO. NO.
I can also play your game and say:
and the profit needed to buy his sick starving child loaf of bread.

Why do you hate children? Why do you want little Sally to die and starve? You filthy warehouseist (or whatever you call your self).

Ok, imagine that the workers working today continue to work for the short term future.
Now instead of paying these workers in vouchers to the company store they just take what they need to keep producing, ie, supper, clothing, housing.
Now imagine that we transition to dividing the work among those between the ages of 20 and 45.
Anyone between these ages should look locally for work.
Anyone that wants to show up should be put to a task that they can manage to perform satisfactorily.
This can be managed online.
If more labor is needed in the mine then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
If more labor is needed in the factory then that should be made known and volunteers sought.
Over the few weeks it takes to settle things down the unemployed become employed and those not producing anything become productive.
The people involved in banking and accounting need to become employed in a task that contributes to the goods on the shelves.
We need workers to make the goods that we want to have.

Story of 2 farmers will show you why you are wrong. Communist countries tried to implement "work for public". It failed.

Those areas of over production will be taken out of production and those workers engaged in something else, ie, do we have to have 30 different models of washing machines? Why are we doing washing at home when the factory can do it more efficiently?
How many washing machines we need for a six month supply will be created and the excess workers moved to something else, maybe cars.

I wash my own clothes because I want to know where my clothes was before I put them on. I want my washing machine to be white, quiet, have dryer built in, monochrome touchscreen... and I am willing to pay/work more than average for it. This is my need and my want. Communist countries tried this and failed. Search this forum for: North Korean state approved haircut.

Food, clothing and shelter will, of course, be priorities.
Now before you go off the rails and start thinking centrally planned dictatorship dystopias, the locals will have to fend for themselves, if you are in an area that can't feed, clothe, and shelter it's self then you and your neighbors will have to reach out regionally for assistance, if none materializes then they will have to seek out an area that can absorb them.

Surely you know that communist countries did it all for the people and there was starvation, homlesness and people wearing rags - it always got to that.

I am thinking centrally planned dictatorship dystopias.

Really what I replace the current system with is the current system minus dollars, bosses, and banksters.
We already have the workers supplying the shelves I just add to their numbers the extraneous workers employed in satisfying the greed of the crapitalists, ie, the managers, accountants, banksters, and shareholders

.
minus dollars (currency) - no medium of exchange.
bosses (investors) - people who pay me for my time and skills.
banks - legitimate business that provides service that is in demand. I want a bank to facilitate transactions of my wealth.

You do understand that everything you wrote so far is 99% identical to Karl Marx? And I will assume that you didnt read "Das Kapital"?

Yes, that he exchanges at a discount to the 'free' market.
Nobody sells into the market unless he makes a profit.
Nobody employs anybody unless he makes a profit on that employee.
Nobody buys anything unless the seller makes a profit on the sale.
What I propose puts the goods into the warehouse and the consumer's house at cost, minus the profits at each stage of distribution.

Or sometimes people do charitable action and buy and sell while making a loss. In free market everyone walks away from exchanges with "profit". I value your apple more than I value 1 dollar. You value 1 dollar more than you value your apple. We exchange and we are both better off.
You didnt read "Economics in one lesson".

What you propose is that people exchange goods without walking away from transaction better off.

Yes, abolish all mediums of exchange, they have led us into poverty for the majority of workers.

How did it lead you into poverty? This kind of hard core communist theory is hard to come by today. Even todays socialists dont blame money for poverty.
3 caveman worked hard and each of them procuded one product with their labor- apple, fish, fur. They used gold (medium of exchange) to exchange fish, apple and a fur. After they exchanged it between them selfs all 3 of them were better off.... BUT.... wait for it.... oh the horror.... they used gold (medium of exchange) have led them into poverty.

You didnt read anything about FED (national banks)?

If you make shoes you give them up to the distributions system and draw out what you need to keep producing them, ie, food, clothing, and shelter. In addition you can order whatever is available on the shelf, if you want a Maserati you order one, if demand outstrips supply then more workers will be added to the Maserati factory, really it will be no different than what happens when apple comes out with a new iphone, supply is created to meet demand.
Not everybody will want one of everything.

Yea. In your world you will have only one type of washing machine but you will have luxury items like Maserati?

Most people will want more than economy can provide. I allready want Death Star. That alone would kill entire mankind because if I am to get it before I die everyone would have to stop doing everything else and work on my Death star.

Then shame on the people that let laziness get in the way of producing a better product.

Ok shame on them. Your system fails... but shame on people.

Do you think that if more cleaning ladies had been added the outcome would have been different?

Irrelevant for my example of why your system fails.

Did the cleaning ladies have access to whatever consumer goods they desired?

No. Director didnt have it either. No one had. No one ever in any society in history of mankind had access to whatever consumer goods they desired.

Could they order a Maserati from the shelf?

In your world we got one type of washing machine but we got Maseratis? Resources are scarce. You cant just order stuff and expect them to magically appear.

It is based on the honor system.

Your system fails.

There will be no central planner saying do this or else.

... but there will be bunch of mathematicians that will say what needs to be done. But that is not central planing somehow. And it wasnt tried and failed in communist countries before? Some mathematician will have to decide how, when, where and how much of watermelons to produce. Will you have governemet/warehouse agency just for watermelons? Since your mathematician team would need to know when to plant them, on what kind of soil, wheather to use manure or water them...and million other things that no single person or small grop can make.

Read "I pencil".

I would presume that local busybodies would supply enough of that without outside help.
Your neighbors will know if you are bum, or not, and they will treat you accordingly.

Local busibodies would supply enough of what?
What do you mean "treat me accordingly"? For my father and grandfather it meant that neighbors "in charge" meant it to be concentration camps and blacklisted in communist secret police books.

I am a bum if I want to decide on my own, be my own man and not some collectivist sheep. Jews have big noses, blacks are lesser race...

Ah, but you are paid, what do you want?
Order it from the net, perhaps you will have to wait some period of time, but you will get it as a matter of pride of the workers in that factory.
The 'pay' that you get is one share of the work done.

Allready adressed it. Another point of failure: system based on pride.

What black market?
The only 'market' I see surviving is the antiquities market.
When you can order ANYTHING to be delivered to your door how do you trade illicitly?
Without cash what will you trade it for? Any consumer good you want will be delivered to you as a matter of worker pride.

Cash (you mean medium of exchange) will always exist. If there is no medium of exchange I would barter. Seriously? You think that you will eliminate cash? You didnt even think about barter?

Not really, the math nerds need to do something productive, it might as well be something useful.
An objective measure that says to have a car, drive it 10,000 miles a year, and the maintenance required to leave a serviceable car when you die will require x number of hours in a factory, or x number of hours in nursing home, or whatever combination you choose to make.

Deciding mathematicians- allknowing ones...A math formula for every life situation and ever decision. Seriously?

Only in a world ruled by force, my proposal is 100% voluntary, until the people agree that what I propose rewards their labor better than crapitalism then the idea will not sell.

Free market rewards better than any other ideas. That iw why most prospereus nations with biggest middle class, most wealth created are countries closest to free market economy.

From where would you get resources to reward people for their labor better than capitalism?

So, you are saying that the Austrian school pays me $100 in wages when I create $100 in widgets?
Wage slavery under ideal conditions is still slavery.
If a portion of the value that my labor creates accrues to anybody except me the system is exploitive and I am a slave.

If woman touches me gently with her elbow by accident in a subway I was raped.
You sell your labor for profit.
Busnisman buys it and makes profit.
Voluntary interaction.
I am doing it every day as laborer and as businessowner. I am not a slave.

 

[osan]

That isn't communism.
Here is a report from the time period from a person that was on the ground and had a real good idea of what communism is.

My entire family lived through "communism". My parents and I were the only ones to escape, save those others who escaped via death.

Don't presume to tell me what communism is or is not. I might know far better than do you.

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.
What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

You seem to have some strange notions about capitalism. First of all, you do not define the term, so for all we know you could be speaking from your anus. You belt out a raft of assertions without definitions of terms, reducing those assertions to meaninglessness, at best.

If you have a valid point to make, you have yet to make it. Going on a rant of sorts is not argumentation; it is mere diatribe, getting us nowhere. How about you start by stating your understanding of "capitalism" so we at least can get an idea of that which you speak? Short of this, you are wasting your time.

 

[VIDEODROME]

Capitalism or Competition is a tricky thing. I think it can be both really great leading to innovation and just as easily be something terrible when a minority dominates the market and actually stifles competition.

Some will cite government picking winners and losers in the economy as enabling this and I think that's a very fair argument. In a lot of cases though, it just takes an industrialist (Robber Baron) and one wealthy banker backing them to just out-spend and out bid the competition.

So I just see it as a mix. The innovation we see in areas like Silicon Valley is astounding, and yet I'm also annoyed at how the computer industry is really dominated by Microsoft and Apple. They are both positioned to crush any business startup they see as a threat.

I see Capitalism as being very beneficial, but also badly flawed and there needs to be checks against corporate tyranny. One tool might be the government if they didn't sell out for corporate donations to their campaigns. I'm not sure if any reform can get passed to stop that. Otherwise, maybe it's just up to the people to revolt by Unionizing.

 

[fr33]

You would not be able to post on this website if not for capitalism.

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...do we have to have 30 different models of washing machines? Why are we doing washing at home when the factory can do it more efficiently?

This is the only item I've identified where you've actually applied your theory. It's so upside down with day-to-day living that I can only assume you're either a nudist or you don't wash your own clothes.

The rest of your posts are filled with an abundance of words like "need," "should", "abolish," etc. Your example there was something about a rich gal buying her own bracelet instead of the schlep worker paying for it.

You sound like the extreme anti-thesis of liberty.

What economic books did you read? Any Austrian economists? This is basic of it and you got it all wrong.

Forget about books. I don't think the OP has ever bought a box of detergent.