Debunking Crapitalism

[FreeBornAngel]

Crapitalism is the economic system preferred by dictators world wide, that should be your clue.

Let's use walmart as our example, though it could be any big box world wide distributor.

If the people that make the products and the people that distribute the goods show up to work then the goods will be on the shelves even if the accounting department jumps off a cliff.

The people that mine the minerals, refine the minerals into raw materials, fashion the raw materials into finished products, and those that distribute those products could care less if the corporation collects it's billions or not, as long as they continue to show up to do the work then the products continue to be on the shelves.

We have to have workers to produce the goods, we don't have to have dollars to make the goods available.

If the workers just take what they need from the shelves in order to continue producing the goods then the goods will continue to be produced.

They could just order what they need from the net and have it delivered to their door.

What I am asserting is that if the workers do the work the system continues to supply the shelves in the absence of an accounting department.​

 

[Ronin Truth]

How about debunking State Capitalism first?

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en....0...1ac..34.heirloom-hp..0.1.250.CEsv7V-uEEA

"Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

 

[wizardwatson]

I love Walmart.

You know Walmart is the only credit card I have, or have ever had, where they have a program that if I lose my job they'll let me skip payments for a few months.

I'm also cheap. I've bounced around Target/Kmart and compared over the years and every time I think Walmart is high, the others are as high or higher. I know people who work at Walmart. I've never heard anyone complain about what it's like to work there.

The only people I've ever really heard complain about Walmart are from two camps. One camp hates them because they represent a successful business and they hate anyone who has wealth. So they judge them on tactics that every successful business uses to succeed.

The other camp is the people who like to point out how Walmart shoppers are white trashy and/or ghetto.

Both of these things show they are running a good business and offering products at reasonable prices. Rich people are wiser savers but poor people are wiser spenders.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I love Walmart.

You know Walmart is the only credit card I have, or have ever had, where they have a program that if I lose my job they'll let me skip payments for a few months.

I'm also cheap. I've bounced around Target/Kmart and compared over the years and every time I think Walmart is high, the others are as high or higher. I know people who work at Walmart. I've never heard anyone complain about what it's like to work there.

The only people I've ever really heard complain about Walmart are from two camps. One camp hates them because they represent a successful business and they hate anyone who has wealth. So they judge them on tactics that every successful business uses to succeed.

The other camp is the people who like to point out how Walmart shoppers are white trashy and/or ghetto.

Both of these things show they are running a good business and offering products at reasonable prices. Rich people are wiser savers but poor people are wiser spenders.

Everybody hates Wal*Mart, except for the customers and the stockholders. As a customer they do tend to piss me off, from time to time.

OPEN MORE REGISTERS!

 

[FreeBornAngel]

How about debunking State Capitalism first.
"Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism." -- Ron Paul

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?
Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.

I love Walmart.

I love walmart, too.
I just want to use it's structure to benefit the worker and not the one percent.
As long as the workers continue to supply the goods we can eliminate the accounting department.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?
Crapitalism exploits the inability of the 'customer' to produce the product themselves.




I love walmart, too.
I just want to use it's structure to benefit the worker and not the one percent.
As long as the workers continue to supply the goods we can eliminate the accounting department.

We have to have workers we don't have to have dollars.

I didn't suggest that. Is that a part of state capitalism? We don't have to have FRNs either.

It's your thread, do it however you want. (Excluding the labor theory of value, of course.)

BTW, a lot of the WalMart workers are also WalMart stockholders. It's a choice thing.

 

[dannno]

I hate Walmart too.

Accounting departments within corporations are bloated due to government regulations and taxation. I learned that pretty early on in my career and have tried to stay out of accounting for that reason, it felt like I was just doing a bunch of work for my company so it could be reported it to the government properly.

What free market capitalism does is it helps rank people's preferences for goods and services, since there is a limited availability they are distributed based on the market value of that which you produce. If that which you produce is valuable and there is a high profit margin, then that means more people want it and more people will enter the market to provide that good or service and meet those people's demands. These are called market signals, and they are very important. Your system ignores that and somehow you think it can all be coordinated centrally..

The fantasy you have about some central entity or government dictating what is produced, how much and who gets it is completely and utterly unattainable and to even work towards it leads to major inefficiencies and less of the goods and services being produced that people primarily desire.

 

[FreeBornAngel]

I didn't suggest that. Is that a part of state capitalism? (Excluding the labor theory of value, of course.)

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

 

[FreeBornAngel]

The fantasy you have about some central entity or government dictating what is produced, how much and who gets it is completely and utterly unattainable and to even work towards it leads to major inefficiencies and less of the goods and services being produced that people primarily desire.

Point where I said that.
I would think that empty shelves would spur reorders and full shelves would preclude them.

I never said anything about central authority. I would state that somebody has to enter the fact that the shelf was empty and resupply needed, but they would not be dictating what goes on the shelf, only noting it's absence.

 

[Henry Rogue]

Many dictators prefer communism, Stalin, mao tse tung, kim jong il, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez. Most of the rest prefer fascism, Mussolini, Hitler, Frank Roosevelt. A few moved towards capitalism, Chile's military junta, but the government still owned and controlled mining operations, China to an extent.

 

[dannno]

Stefan Molyneux has a great explanation for why modern day governments and dictators prefer a more free market capitalist system as opposed to a slave state or a communist system... it is because the people are like cattle and free market or free range cattle produce more for the farmer:

 

[Ronin Truth]

Crapitalism is wage slavery, whether that wage comes from infinite customers or an employer.

I don't need the labor theory of value either.
Anything that leaves values in place is just crapitalism.
The value of life should not be measured in dollars per hour.

Am I safe in assuming that you are anti-profit? The value of labor, not life, is measured in dollars per hour. I can sell my labor, but not my life.

The Philosophy of Liberty (video)

 

[FreeBornAngel]

Many dictators prefer communism, Stalin, mao tse tung, kim jong il, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez. Most of the rest prefer fascism, Mussolini, Hitler, Frank Roosevelt. A few moved towards capitalism, Chile's military junta, but the government still owned and controlled mining operations, China to an extent.

That isn't communism.
Here is a report from the time period from a person that was on the ground and had a real good idea of what communism is.

What you reference is state crapitalism, or fascism.
What you point to is the mirror image of what we have in the US.
There the gov't controls the corporations and here the corporations control the gov't.
Mirror images.
Both fascism.

 

[dannno]

Point where I said that.
I would think that empty shelves would spur reorders and full shelves would preclude them.

I never said anything about central authority. I would state that somebody has to enter the fact that the shelf was empty and resupply needed, but they would not be dictating what goes on the shelf, only noting it's absence.

Why is somebody going to go out and mine a bunch of stuff and produce something just because a shelf hundreds of miles away is empty?

 

[FreeBornAngel]

Stefan Molyneux has a great explanation for why modern day governments and dictators prefer a more free market capitalist system as opposed to a slave state or a communist system... it is because the people are like cattle and free market or free range cattle produce more:

Exactly, dannno.
This is why I propose eliminating dollars.
As long as the workers continue to supply the demand from the shelves the accounting department can get real jobs.

 

[FreeBornAngel]

Am I safe in assuming that you are anti-profit? The value of labor, not life, is measured in dollars per hour. I can sell my labor, but not my life.

What is your life if not the hours that make it up?

 

[Ronin Truth]

What is your life if not the hours that make it up?

The majority the waking hours of it is doing what I want. The rest are merely a means to a preferred and preferable chosen end.

If you live to be 60, you sleep for 20 years.

 

[dannno]

Exactly, dannno.
This is why I propose eliminating dollars.
As long as the workers continue to supply the demand from the shelves the accounting department can get real jobs.

Eliminating the federal reserve (dollars) and allowing people to trade in gold, silver and bitcoin would be a great start. You need money to create market signals.

People have non-optimal jobs (like garbage men, factory workers, diving welders) when they could have a job that they would prefer more (service sector, parking attendant, etc) because they make more money at non-optimal or more dangerous job or because their customer service skills aren't as good as some people in that industry (do you appreciate good customer service?). Not everybody can have their dream job, nobody wants to work in a factory.

People take jobs and wages that are the best option for them depending on their location and skill set, their preference for the type of work and what it pays. If you take away incentives, it all falls apart. Garbage men make good money because nobody wants the job, but it needs to get done and so there is a demand for it. If you took away that incentive, who is going to want to come pick up everybody's garbage? Nobody.

So these signals in the market pull people into doing tasks that they wouldn't normally do, but are more lucrative. If you don't have the market signal, then people aren't going to do the more highly demanded and lucrative tasks unless you force them through slavery.

 

[Henry Rogue]

Ok, but why should we leave wage slavery in place?
Even if crapitalism were performed by only sole proprietors it would still exploit people for their inability to produce goods.
Would you pay somebody to shave your face or mow your lawn if you could do it for yourself?

I do, do it myself and yes, I would pay someone else to do it, if my time is better spent doing something else. It's called division of labor.

Crapitalism exploits the inability of the[/B] 'customer'[/B] to produce the product themselves.

Employers are the employees' customers.

 

[FreeBornAngel]

Why is somebody going to go out and mine a bunch of stuff and produce something just because a shelf hundreds of miles away is empty?

Not exactly.
We work because we don't want to be parasites on the other workers.
Somebody has to make the cars, shoes, houses, etc,...the most efficient way to do this is by the division of labor.
The miner mines and the refiner refines because they know the farmer will grow the food and the trucker will distribute it.
I would assert that the mathematicians will devise some measure so that we can know that working in the shoe factory for 10 years is sufficient to ensure that what we eat from the farmer is equated by our production of shoes, but this number would have to be a guideline or we have just traded dollars for the new measure.
The goal is to assure ourselves that we have produced more than we have consumed and that we have left the world with more material wealth than when we entered it.

That having been said, how do we quantify grandma's giving of the one thing we all need, unconditional love?