Controlled Opposition - A must read for everyone in the liberty movement

[InterestedParticipant]

Who are you speaking about when you say "their"?

The people who happen to buy into the beleif system, whoever they are in any given instant in time.

 

[PatriotOne]

The players change constantly. It's a moving target. Understanding who the players is of little benefit. That fact that there is so much emphasis on "WHO" just shows you how well the programming of obfuscation works, because that is where most are initially lead to, and stay focused on, never really understanding the techniques and the goals.

Nonsense. BOTH the techniques and the modern day players are important, as is it's history. I find your answers to my direct questions intentionally ambiguous. You have no problem calling Griffin, Schiff, Rockwell, (and even implied RP at one point) and several others I can't recall in your past posts "controlled opposition". But when I ask your opinion on who is doing the controlling, you say it's not important. I find that odd.

Don't you know the "who" IP?

 

[osan]

Nonsense. BOTH the techniques and the modern day players are important, as is it's history. I find your answers to my direct questions intentionally ambiguous. You have no problem calling Griffin, Schiff, Rockwell, (and even implied RP at one point) and several others I can't recall in your past posts "controlled opposition". But when I ask your opinion on who is doing the controlling, you say it's not important. I find that odd.

I'd have to agree on this.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Nonsense. BOTH the techniques and the modern day players are important, as is it's history. I find your answers to my direct questions intentionally ambiguous. You have no problem calling Griffin, Schiff, Rockwell, (and even implied RP at one point) and several others I can't recall in your past posts "controlled opposition". But when I ask your opinion on who is doing the controlling, you say it's not important. I find that odd.

Don't you know the "who" IP?

I don't keep lists, but I DO know how to figure out "who" at any given moment, as their techniques always give them away.

Look, I'm taking the argument that it is more important to know how to fish then to be given the fish by someone else. Focus on learning how to fish, and the rest is rudimentary. Their techniques always always give them away. Wanting to know who the "who" is means that you have yet to understand their goals and techniques, and therefore will always be susceptable to their deceit.

 

[PatriotOne]

I don't keep lists, but I DO know how to figure out "who" at any given moment, as their techniques always give them away.

Look, I'm taking the argument that it is more important to know how to fish then to be given the fish by someone else. Focus on learning how to fish, and the rest is rudimentary. Their techniques always always give them away. Wanting to know who the "who" is means that you have yet to understand their goals and techniques, and therefore will always be susceptable to their deceit.

And I am taking the position that understanding the techniques AND where the fish are are equally important. My disciples and I will kick you and your disciples asses fishing. While your philosophizing in some livingroom about fishing techniques, I'm taking my disciples to where the big fish are and letting them fish. See you at the fish fry...we'll provide the fish and you can bring the beer if your disciples hadn't starved to death by then since you didn't think it important to identify to them where the fish were .

 

[InterestedParticipant]

And I am taking the position that understanding the techniques AND where the fish are are equally important. My disciples and I will kick you and your disciples asses fishing. While your philosophizing in some livingroom about fishing techniques, I'm taking my disciples to where the big fish are and letting them fish. See you at the fish fry...we'll provide the fish and you can bring the beer if your disciples hadn't starved to death by then since you didn't think it important to identify to them where the fish were .

They'll get you to kill your own, as that is what always happens. Been that way for thousands of years. Why should now be any diff?

Hey, but if you want to play a game, then I'll play along for a few posts. Perhaps you can even PM me. Just ask me about a few people you wonder about, and I'll tell you what side they're on. If it's someone I don't know, then I may need to request some background links to read up on them. But either way, it won't take long. The giveaways hit one in the face like a wet fish.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Didn't receive anything, guess you don't want to play that game.

In highschool I was always told that I had to understand the concepts behind the answers anyway, which is I guess why we were told to show our work so that we could demonstrate our understanding. Focusing on the names of various actors is kinda like giving away a cheat sheet, as the recipient of said cheat sheet ultimately only cheats themselves in their quest for greater understanding.

 

[PatriotOne]

Didn't receive anything, guess you don't want to play that game.

In highschool I was always told that I had to understand the concepts behind the answers anyway, which is I guess why we were told to show our work so that we could demonstrate our understanding. Focusing on the names of various actors is kinda like giving away a cheat sheet, as the recipient of said cheat sheet ultimately only cheats themselves in their quest for greater understanding.

But eventually you have to give the answer also... which you seem to take great lengths to avoid so I assume you don't know the answer. And no. I don't want to play your game by feeding you suspects and you responding like your some kind of oracle...lol. I already know the answer to my question. I just wanted to see if you knew...it appears ya don't so I have lost interest in our conversation.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

But eventually you have to give the answer also... which you seem to take great lengths to avoid so I assume you don't know the answer. And no. I don't want to play your game by feeding you suspects and you responding like your some kind of oracle...lol. I already know the answer to my question. I just wanted to see if you knew...it appears ya don't so I have lost interest in our conversation.

What's the question that is outstanding?

 

[InterestedParticipant]

The cybernetics of men

As you, Socrates,

Often call politics...



~ Plato

 

[cheapseats]

What's the question that is outstanding?

WHO ARE THE CONTROLLERS? The names part of "kicking ass and taking names". The PIGS on Animal Farm.

"Very Important People"...people who MATTER...must be knocked off pedestals, or nothing improves. "Taking people down" is NOT necessarily the same thing as physically aggressing against people, anymore than "targeting" vulnerable Incumbents means acquiring them in actual crosshairs and pulling the trigger.

In Governance and Commerce, FALL FROM GRACE = REVERSAL OF FORTUNE.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

WHO ARE THE CONTROLLERS? The names part of "kicking ass and taking names". The PIGS on Animal Farm.

"Very Important People"...people who MATTER...must be knocked off pedestals, or nothing improves. "Taking people down" is NOT necessarily the same thing as physically aggressing against people, anymore than "targeting" vulnerable Incumbents means acquiring them in actual crosshairs and pulling the trigger.

In Governance and Commerce, FALL FROM GRACE = REVERSAL OF FORTUNE.

This question is a common one.... tell me who THEY are? Well, that who is always changing, and moveover is utterly irrelevant, as destroying the WHO won't change the system or our condition. The real question that should be asked is ... how does the system work and how do I identify it's weapons? Now, having that understanding will allow one to ignore the weapon systems, and therefore defeat them. But attacking individuals is fruitless, as the system is designed to be robust, and to survive attacks against large populations of individuals.

 

[jmdrake]

This question is a common one.... tell me who THEY are? Well, that who is always changing, and moveover is utterly irrelevant, as destroying the WHO won't change the system or our condition. The real question that should be asked is ... how does the system work and how do I identify it's weapons? Now, having that understanding will allow one to ignore the weapon systems, and therefore defeat them. But attacking individuals is fruitless, as the system is designed to be robust, and to survive attacks against large populations of individuals.

You're back! I thought you'd dropped off the planet! I've been SOOOO tempted to bump this thread over the years. Okay, so have at it. What's your take on the current state of the liberty movement? Lots of upheavals in and out of the liberty movement in the past twelve months. Some of it very concerning, some of it quite exciting. And welcome back IP!

 

[InterestedParticipant]

You're back! I thought you'd dropped off the planet! I've been SOOOO tempted to bump this thread over the years. Okay, so have at it. What's your take on the current state of the liberty movement? Lots of upheavals in and out of the liberty movement in the past twelve months. Some of it very concerning, some of it quite exciting. And welcome back IP!

Thanks for the big welcome back. Glad to know someone still remembers me

To answer your question with an extremely short reply.... the liberty movement is controlled by intelligence operatives. I mean, isn't that obvious by now? I must admit that I haven't paid attention to it in quite a few years, as I got sick of the madness. But ultimately, it was always designed to corral those who were still anchored in the US Constitution and to render them meaningless, either through exhaustion, discrediting them, or any other means imagineable. It's been going on for a long long time, but since the turn of the century the efforts have been extended significantly. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Some of what you say is good, IP, but your solution has always been to neuter liberty activists. That all is lost, so why try. So, to me at least, it seems that you are one of the people who are attempting to render us meaningless.

If you do have concrete suggestions as to what you believe we should do, maybe now you will be forthcoming with them.

 

[wizardwatson]

Thanks for the big welcome back. Glad to know someone still remembers me

To answer your question with an extremely short reply.... the liberty movement is controlled by intelligence operatives. I mean, isn't that obvious by now? I must admit that I haven't paid attention to it in quite a few years, as I got sick of the madness. But ultimately, it was always designed to corral those who were still anchored in the US Constitution and to render them meaningless, either through exhaustion, discrediting them, or any other means imagineable. It's been going on for a long long time, but since the turn of the century the efforts have been extended significantly. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Well, you didn't believe that at one time. I remember when a former Campaign for Liberty staffer posted an article about how all the sign-waving and grassrootsy stuff we were doing in the beginning "wasn't how we win elections":

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...anizing-not-sign-waves-or-YouTube-clips/page2

That thread shows the attitude at the time and I feel it was the beginning of disillusionment for many in the movement. I subscribed to that thread a long time back. I felt it was sort of the turning point where the political gatekeepers essentially were trying to form a consensus that electoral politics was the strategy that the movement should follow.

I remember you because you were the last post (at the time of this writing) in that thread. You said:

For a brief moment in time there was an organically developing movement arising from the public ranks. Now we are all witnessing the fracturing and dismantling of everything and anything that might be used as a foundation for its continued operation or growth.

Toss it all out and start over. It's all been infected.

Now that thread was short. Not epic by RPF standards. And Steve was right. Winning elections requires that the grassroots follows the directives of the campaign. But people took that as a jab that their efforts to make their own signs and blimps and stickers was counterproductive. That we were ghetto-fying and making Ron essentially look bad and that our amateurish behavior was not wanted.

Now you, judging by your quote, took this in much the same way I did at the time. That this was essentially a scraping off of much of what the movement consisted of at the time. It was the beginning of a clear division in my mind. That being that those of us who believed in electoral politics as a path would have leadership and those who believed in a more creative "R3volution" approach wouldn't and would in fact need to distance themselves, or their tactics at least, from the campaign(s).

So you said at one time there was an "organically developing movement". Do you think those people are all gone? Do you think they've all been brainwashed beyond hope? It's my belief that this potential is still untapped and it's still out there. There is an unfilled need for some kind of leadership in the form of ideas of how to cooperate.

I personally despise this electoral politics approach and spend a lot of time thinking of how to find an alternative approach that speaks to this unmet need. But I understand it. If no one comes forward with alternatives what are supporters supposed to do? But I disagree with your assessment that the movement is "controlled" by intelligence operatives. Surely there are some snooping around. Their budgets are so inflated that they have to find something to do. What really plagues the movement in my opinion is the same thing that plagues all movements that can't find a solid path towards action, group think and intellectualism. That is the real "intelligence operative". This movement was a movement of conscience in my opinion. But when the energy died down now all the sudden everyone's a libertarian and an economist. The passion has been replaced by digging in to the most defensible philosophical position.

That's my opinion. It isn't "co-opted". I believe it's simply the same people with the same passion who have no real outlet for that passion so they've encased themselves in this crusty shell of intellectualism and have to be satisfied with the electoral political approach until someone comes up with a better idea.

Now you mention God and the Kingdom as I read from a few of your posts in this thread. There are a lot of Christians in this movement and in my opinion the movement is more of a movement of peace and non-violence than it is about these libertarian and economic intellectual positions. But almost no one talks about it from that angle even though that is where the propensity to act originates for many in the movement. You don't act from a theory, you act from your conscience. Now if you believe in eternal law. If you believe in the commandment to love and speak the truth and if you are gifted with intelligence you are not only capable of acting, you are obligated to act. Choosing not to, despairing over the state of affairs, refusing to share what you have with others is not living up to your obligation. Start a thread, teach one person, pay them if you have to, lay down a strategy, put yourself out there, but don't give up.

That organic potential is out there and I think we're at a time in history when it's very possible that it can be realized but it depends on individuals coming up with ideas and is directly inhibited by those with intuition and knowledge about this movement giving up.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Some of what you say is good, IP, but your solution has always been to neuter liberty activists. That all is lost, so why try. So, to me at least, it seems that you are one of the people who are attempting to render us meaningless.

If you do have concrete suggestions as to what you believe we should do, maybe now you will be forthcoming with them.

Neutering liberty activites that are part of a controlled intelligence operation is "not doing anything". Suggesting that people stop listening to "vector leaders" is not "all lost" Turning off the alternative media is not acquiescing. Choosing to become a real thinking sentient human being is a real solution, and is infact the ONLY viable solution.

Our sources of sensory input are largely controlled, at least those coming from system controlled outputs. Turning these off and perceiving the world from your own true pont of view, not within the context of what you've been told all your life, is a critical first step, and in fact, the ONLY step that frightens the controllers.

 

[fr33]

I haven't read the entire thread and don't plan to but some of the last posts do interest me enough to post on it. Some people call the sign wavers and loud mouths counter-productive and others call the politicians counter-productive. It could be that these are just natural opinions that people arrive at rather than just automatically labeling it as "controlled opposition".

There's an eternal debate going on between ancaps and other libertarians; Whether to participate or not in politics.

AnCaps, for the most part, provide no strategy for liberty within the next few generations. Neither do the political playing libertarians.

I just want a stage to get the message out. The game show of politics seems to be one that gets the most eyes and ears paying attention to it.

I can ignore the state but my neighbors and their master, the state, will not ignore me. So I choose to use public venues to tell them how the cow eats cabbage.

In 2007 I realized that I don't need a government to live and thrive. The reason I realized this is because I watched the first GOP debate and Ron Paul appealed to my senses and encouraged me to learn about philosophy and coercive government. I want to do the same to others that were like me because what Ron Paul did to me cannot ever be undone.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Well, you didn't believe that at one time. I remember when a former Campaign for Liberty staffer posted an article about how all the sign-waving and grassrootsy stuff we were doing in the beginning "wasn't how we win elections":

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...anizing-not-sign-waves-or-YouTube-clips/page2
.
.
.
I remember you because you were the last post (at the time of this writing) in that thread. You said:

For a brief moment in time there was an organically developing movement arising from the public ranks. Now we are all witnessing the fracturing and dismantling of everything and anything that might be used as a foundation for its continued operation or growth.

Toss it all out and start over. It's all been infected

Wow, what a great quote. Can't believe that I wrote it at the time

But yes, that quote is still accurate, and is NOT inconsistent with what I am now saying. There were always at least two sets of forces: (1) those controlled by established intelligence institutions, and (2) those comprised of relatively indepenendly thinking individuals who wanted our gov't to adhere to the values set forth by our founders. But just as Michael Hudson, outspoken professor of finance, describes the FIRE economy: the parasite consumes the host. In this situation, the established intelligence institutions were able to employ political front actors and controlled media outlets to co-opt the larger movement, and render it impotent.

I personally despise this electoral politics approach and spend a lot of time thinking of how to find an alternative approach that speaks to this unmet need. But I understand it. If no one comes forward with alternatives what are supporters supposed to do? But I disagree with your assessment that the movement is "controlled" by intelligence operatives. Surely there are some snooping around. Their budgets are so inflated that they have to find something to do. What really plagues the movement in my opinion is the same thing that plagues all movements that can't find a solid path towards action, group think and intellectualism. That is the real "intelligence operative". This movement was a movement of conscience in my opinion. But when the energy died down now all the sudden everyone's a libertarian and an economist. The passion has been replaced by digging in to the most defensible philosophical position.

Plato spoke openly about Politics being a form of "steersmanship"... a technique for managing and navigating the masses.

And as far as the movement being "controlled" by intelligence sources. There is absolution no doubt about this. NONE. This is simply the way political groups of this size are steered and managed. Unfortunately, this is the most challenging hurdle for anyone to overcome and see.

Now you mention God and the Kingdom as I read from a few of your posts in this thread. There are a lot of Christians in this movement and in my opinion the movement is more of a movement of peace and non-violence than it is about these libertarian and economic intellectual positions. But almost no one talks about it from that angle even though that is where the propensity to act originates for many in the movement. You don't act from a theory, you act from your conscience. Now if you believe in eternal law. If you believe in the commandment to love and speak the truth and if you are gifted with intelligence you are not only capable of acting, you are obligated to act. Choosing not to, despairing over the state of affairs, refusing to share what you have with others is not living up to your obligation. Start a thread, teach one person, pay them if you have to, lay down a strategy, put yourself out there, but don't give up.

In God and Kingdom the author (Jaques Ellul) talks about seeing the system (man's system) for what it is - a separate and mostly corrupt system that one must learn how to operate withiin to survive in man's world - but to understand that we all exist in God's Kingdom and that we adhere to hire ideals and a much richer purpose. Not all Christians understand this, and some non-Christians do.

That organic potential is out there and I think we're at a time in history when it's very possible that it can be realized but it depends on individuals coming up with ideas and is directly inhibited by those with intuition and knowledge about this movement giving up.

I don't share your optimism. The power of propaganda and institutional controls are far too sophisticated. People don't know what's true anymore, and they've lost the ability to think outside the system. The deception has been going on for so long, and is so pervasive I just don't see how there ever could be a mass movement who could create real change.

 

[Anti Federalist]

I don't share your optimism. The power of propaganda and institutional controls are far too sophisticated. People don't know what's true anymore, and they've lost the ability to think outside the system. The deception has been going on for so long, and is so pervasive I just don't see how there ever could be a mass movement who could create real change.

Soooo, let me see if I have this straight...

There is nothing that can be done short of:

A - Rely on faith to transcend this "earthly grossness".

B - Fight, and drag the unthinking mass of humanity along for the ride, kicking and screaming.

C - Give up, make a drink, get laid, and see what's on TV.