Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

Yeah... for white people.

Well, the whole damn country didn't care much for the Negro. The average Northerner couldn't care less about slavery so long as the blacks stayed out of their states. The infamous 'Jim Crow' laws had their origin in the Black Codes begun in the Northern states.

Here's a few examples:

Slavery was abolished in Ohio by the state's original constitution (1802). But at the same time, Ohio, with slave-state Kentucky across the river, took the lead in aggressively barring black immigration.

When Virginian John Randolph's 518 slaves were emancipated and a plan was hatched to settle them in southern Ohio, the population rose up in indignation. An Ohio congressman warned that if the attempt were made, "the banks of the Ohio ... would be lined with men with muskets on their shoulders to keep off the emancipated slaves."[1]

According to historian Leon F. Litwack, Ohio "provided a classic example of how anti-immigration legislation could be invoked to harass Negro residents."[2] The state had enacted Black Laws in 1804 and 1807 that compelled blacks entering the state to post bond of $500 guaranteeing good behavior and to produce a court paper as proof that they were free.

"No extensive effort was made to enforce the bond requirement" Likwack wrote, "until 1829, when the rapid increase of the Negro population alarmed Cincinnati. The city authorities announced that the Black Laws would be enforced and ordered Negroes to comply or leave within thirty days."

http://www.slavenorth.com/ohio.htm

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ILLINOIS, INDIANA

The legal history of the black codes in these two states is essentially similiar, and in fact Illinois simply continued Indiana's code when it organized as a territory.

The new states that entered the union in the North after the gradual emancipation of northern slaves were just as concerned as the old ones with maintaining their racial purity. To do so, they turned to an old practice in the North: the exclusion law. Slaves could not be brought into the Northwest Territories, under the ordinance of 1787, but slaves already there remained in bondage. Once states began to emerge from the old territories, most of them explicitly barred blacks or permitted them only if they could prove their freedom and post bond. Ohio offered the first example, and those that followed her into the union followed her lead on race.

Both Indiana (1816) and Illinois (1818) abolished slavery by their constitutions. And both followed the Ohio policy of trying to prevent black immigration by passing laws requiring blacks who moved into the state to produce legal documents verifying that they were free and posting bond to guarantee their good behavior. The bond requirements ranged as high as $1,000, which was prohibitive for a black American in those days. Anti-immigration legislation was passed in Illinois in 1819, 1829, and 1853. In Indiana, such laws were enacted in 1831 and 1852. Michigan Territory passed such a law in 1827; Iowa Territory passed one in 1839 and Iowa enacted another in 1851 after it became a state. Oregon Territory passed such a law in 1849.[1]

http://www.slavenorth.com/northwest.htm

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Oregon Constitution of 1859

Article I Section 35.-- No free negro, or mulatto, not residing in this State at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall come, reside, or be within this State, or hold any real estate, or make any contracts, or maintain any suit therein; and the Legislative Assembly shall provide by penal laws, for the removal, by public officers, of all such negroes, and mulattoes, and for their effectual exclusion from the State, and for the punishment of persons who shall bring them into the state, or employ, or harbor them. (Repealed November 3, 1926).

Article II Section 6.--No Negro, Chinaman, or Mulatto shall have the right of suffrage. (Repealed June28, 1927).

http://www.ccrh.org/center/posters/colorl/orcon.htm

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There is no moral high ground that either side can claim in regards to Negros. The South wanted to continue slavery. The North didn't need it as it had plenty of immigrants to fill its factories with cheap labor. The North did, however, make use of slaves early on and many prominent Northern families made their fortunes in the slave trade.

It could be argued that the whole country benefited from slavery. The South was made prosperous by slavery and the tariffs that the South paid the lion's share of benefited the North. It wasn't slavery that Lincoln couldn't abide...it was secession and the loss of revenue as the South pursued a policy of low tariffs. In short, the USA feared the commercial competition of a CSA.

"Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as of many other evils....The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel".... Charles Dickens in a London periodical in December 1861

"The contest is really for empire on the side of the North and for independence on that of the South....". ..... London Times of 7 Nov 1861

"Slavery is not the cause of the rebellion ....Slavery is the pretext on which the leaders of the rebellion rely, 'to fire the Southern Heart' and through which the greatest degree of unanimity can be produced....Mr. Calhoun, after finding that the South could not be brought into sufficient unanimity by a clamor about the tariff, selected slavery as the better subject for agitation"..... North American Review (Boston October 1862)

"They [the South] know that it is their import trade that draws from the people's pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interests....These are the reasons why these people [the North] do not wish the South to secede from the Union." ..... New Orleans Daily Crescent 21 January 1861

"In one single blow our foreign commerce must be reduced to less than one-half what it now is. Our coastwise trade would pass into other hands. One-half of our shipping would lie idle at our wharves. We should lose our trade with the South, with all of its immense profits. Our manufactories would be in utter ruins. Let the South adopt the free-trade system, or that of a tariff for revenue, and these results would likely follow." .... Chicago Daily Times December 1860

"At once shut down every Southern port, destroy its commerce and bring utter ruin on the Confederate States." ..... NY Times 22 March 1861

"the mask has been thrown off and it is apparent that the people of the principal seceding states are now for commercial independence. They dream that the centres of traffic can be changed from Northern to Southern ports....by a revenue system verging on free trade...." .... Boston Transcript 18 March 1861

"But what am I to do in the meantime with those men at Montgomery [meaning the Confederate constitutional convention]? Am I to let them go on... [a]nd open Charleston, etc., as ports of entry, with their ten-percent tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" ~ Lincoln to Colonel John B. Baldwin, deputized by the Virginian Commissioners to determine whether Lincoln would use force, April 4, 1861.
 
Yeah. But the Southern slave masters were determined to keep their slaves and started a war to do it. Who can blame them? If they would have won the war then whites might still be enjoying our slaves. Can you imagine owning Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Bill Cosby, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, or millions upon millions of other really cool black people? I would love to own any of them.

Not everyone in the Confederacy supported slavery and negro slavery would have died out on its own in the South like it did in the North and in every other nation in the western hemisphere that had it. The War for Southern Independence was not about slavery.
 
Torchbearer was talking about the ideals of a confederacy, not the CSA in specific.

That's irrelevant. Trav was specifically responding to your picture which was specifically glorifying the CSA. Hey, that's your right to do that. But it's dishonest for Torchbearer to respond to Trav's post calling it "libtard" and then turn around and say "Oh I'm just talking about the ideals of the confederacy". I don't understand why you can't get that.
 
Yeah. Somebody gets what I'm saying. And so far I haven't heard any evidence of how "free" the confederate constitution was. A constitution that guarantees the right to own slaves and a government that conscripts even white people isn't exactly a model of freedom. Hate Lincoln all you want. But the romanticism of the confederacy around here is just laughable.
I really REALLY have to hand it to you JM, sticking around. I think I would have left this place as a hypocritical racist den. Beating their chests about freedom and then calling the Confederate constitution a step in the right direction. Basically it is the US constitution with Slavery solidly codified into it. It didn't even explicitly give people the right to leave THEIR confederation as it is claimed that is what they were fighting for. That is one hypocracy that is far too much for me to swallow.
 
Which I'm assuming you accept now?

No.

The draft has been ruled constitutional in the USA, so US citizens are slaves.

You said members of the union were always slaves. Today the government can kill citizens without trial. I'm not talking about today. Still today I have the option of leaving. (I'm not sure how much longer that option will be around or where the hell in this world I would go.)
 
A) That's not a syntactically correct sentence.
B) Confederate brought up "slavery" as in "everyone in the union is and was a slave" so it is relevant.
C) Considering that slavery was mentioned in the CSA constitution and in CSA declarations of secession it is relevant.
D) Your need to divorce slavery from the confederacy is laughable.
E) The draft = slavery. It's funny how you won't address that.

are you trying to argue the morality of slavery or the morality of secession?
I never once endorse a confederate constitution. never even read it. draft is slavery. and D is the big issue we have here. slavery was protect by the federal government. slavery was sanction by government. the same government you have today, and still treats you like a slave. but now you get to pick what job you do for their benefit.
I think you are being dishonest when I am clearly talking about principles of the action of secession and a weak central government and you keep associating that with slavery.
I almost feel like i'm saying, 'smaller government is better', and you are telling me, 'you are a slavery loving racist.'
 
I really REALLY have to hand it to you JM, sticking around. I think I would have left this place as a hypocritical racist den. Beating their chests about freedom and then calling the Confederate constitution a step in the right direction. Basically it is the US constitution with Slavery solidly codified into it. It didn't even explicitly give people the right to leave THEIR confederation as it is claimed that is what they were fighting for. That is one hypocracy that is far too much for me to swallow.

I haven't seen a single racist post.

Nor did I ever say that the CSA's constitution was a step in the right direction. I said that a confederacy, which is what the United States of America was founded as under the Articles of Confederation until it became a federation under the current Constitution, is much preferable.
 
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slavery was sanction by government. the same government you have today, and still treats you like a slave. but now you get to pick what job you do for their benefit.

This is what I meant when I said that citizens of the Union still are slaves.
 
Well, the whole damn country didn't care much for the Negro. The average Northerner couldn't care less about slavery so long as the blacks stayed out of their states. The infamous 'Jim Crow' laws had their origin in the Black Codes begun in the Northern states.

Yes. Which is why I readily agreed with:

Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
There's more than enough hypocrisy and foolishness on both sides of that conflict to go around.


For the life of me I don't understand why certain people feel the need to point out that there was hypocrisy in the north to somehow justify their glorification of the south when (most of us) on the other side are willing to concede the hypocrisy of the north. Really, both sides sucked.
 
are you trying to argue the morality of slavery or the morality of secession?

Neither. I'm simply agreeing with Trav's position that the confederate flag at best represented freedom for white people. But it actually didn't because of the draft. And like I said in another post:

For the life of me I don't understand why certain people feel the need to point out that there was hypocrisy in the north to somehow justify their glorification of the south when (most of us) on the other side are willing to concede the hypocrisy of the north. Really, both sides sucked.
 
You said members of the union were always slaves. Today the government can kill citizens without trial. I'm not talking about today. Still today I have the option of leaving. (I'm not sure how much longer that option will be around or where the hell in this world I would go.)

When have US citizens not been slaves to their governments?

And even if you leave, US citizens have to pay taxes no matter where they live.

And even if you do renounce your citizenship, you have be a citizen of another country, which just means you're changing slavemaster.
 
This is what I meant when I said that citizens of the Union still are slaves.

And the draft was sanctioned by the confederate states which treated white people like slaves. So I see no reason to glorify the confederate flag as some sort of "move toward freedom". Not even an incremental one. But hey, if it makes you feel good fine.
 
Neither. I'm simply agreeing with Trav's position that the confederate flag at best represented freedom for white people. But it actually didn't because of the draft. And like I said in another post:

For the life of me I don't understand why certain people feel the need to point out that there was hypocrisy in the north to somehow justify their glorification of the south when (most of us) on the other side are willing to concede the hypocrisy of the north. Really, both sides sucked.

the confederacy, just by the fact that it was a smaller unit of government was preferable to the federal government.
that is why I keep pointing out the slavery isn't apart of this discussion. smaller unit of government doesn't mean slavery. that is demagoguery.
 
And the draft was sanctioned by the confederate states which treated white people like slaves. So I see no reason to glorify the confederate flag as some sort of "move toward freedom". Not even an incremental one. But hey, if it makes you feel good fine.

I do think that a confederacy and secession from the federal government are steps in the right direction.
 
When have US citizens not been slaves to their governments?

And even if you leave, US citizens have to pay taxes no matter where they live.

And even if you do renounce your citizenship, you have be a citizen of another country, which just means you're changing slavemaster.

And if you feel that way then there is no reason to glorify in the new "slavemaster" CSA. Fly this flag instead.

F25-bandana.jpg
 
And the draft was sanctioned by the confederate states which treated white people like slaves. So I see no reason to glorify the confederate flag as some sort of "move toward freedom". Not even an incremental one. But hey, if it makes you feel good fine.

But you agree that US citizens are slaves to the federal government, right?
 
the confederacy, just by the fact that it was a smaller unit of government was preferable to the federal government.
that is why I keep pointing out the slavery isn't apart of this discussion. smaller unit of government doesn't mean slavery. that is demagoguery.

Except in this case it did. Smaller government = draft of white people. Yeah draft!
 
A) Says you.
B) Gotta love that draft!
C) It's funny that you never address point B.

I'd rather live under the CSA's confederate system than under the North's federal system.

I never said that people in the CSA weren't all slaves. They would have been even without the draft.

It's funny how you refuse to acknowledge that you're a slave to the government.
 
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