Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

[Confederate]

If Jefferson Davis had conquered Washington City prior to May 1, 1861 as claimed by his Secretary of War, then how would slavery ever ended in America. I would love to have two slaves. A man slave to do my labor and a woman for cooking and fun. I would never vote to end slavery.

Slavery ended in the Northern states without a war, didn't it?

 

[torchbearer]

Did the confederacy of the south have taxation from the beginning? Yes.
Did the confederacy of the south guarantee the right to own slaves? Yes.
Did the confederacy of the south have the draft from the beginning? Yes.

What's the point to fight for your "freedom" if you accept from the get go that your supporting a system that enslaves whites as well as blacks (the confederacy)?

slavery existed either way. the war wasn't fought over slaves. had the south not rebelled, those states could still be holding slaves today.

 

[Confederate]

Did the confederacy of the south have taxation from the beginning? Yes.
Did the confederacy of the south guarantee the right to own slaves? Yes.
Did the confederacy of the south have the draft from the beginning? Yes.

What's the point to fight for your "freedom" if you accept from the get go that your supporting a system that enslaves whites as well as blacks (the confederacy)?

I never said Confederate citizens weren't slaves in some form. Anyone living under a government is.

My original comment was: "Every single citizen of the Union was and still is a slave." I wasn't talking about the CSA.

What I support is a Confederacy over a federation.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

n/m

 

[Confederate]

n/m

Did you commit a thought crime and decide to erase it?

 

[jmdrake]

maybe you missed that point? I was talking about forms of government. a confederacy does not equal slavery. that is the libtard demagoguery that leads to the miss direction in thinking.

You are dodging the point. The picture that "confederate" posted was not of a confederacy. It was of the confederacy as in the confederate states of the south. Travlr rightfully said that represented freedom for white people. (Actually that's wrong because that government enslaved white people through a draft). So cut the "I'm just talking about a form of government" bull. I'm fully aware of the Iroquois confederation, the "articles of confederation" and other confederation "forms of government". This is a flag of "a confederacy".

 

[jmdrake]

I never said Confederate citizens weren't slaves in some form. Anyone living under a government is.

My original comment was: "Every single citizen of the Union was and still is a slave." I wasn't talking about the CSA.

What I support is a Confederacy over a federation.

Hey, this is the flag of a republic! Freeduuuuuum!

 

[Confederate]

You are dodging the point. The picture that "confederate" posted was not of a confederacy. It was of the confederacy as in the confederate states of the south. Travlr rightfully said that represented freedom for white people. (Actually that's wrong because that government enslaved white people through a draft). So cut the "I'm just talking about a form of government" bull. I'm fully aware of the Iroquois confederation, the "articles of confederation" and other confederation "forms of government". This is a flag of "a confederacy".

You used my favorite word a lot in that post.

 

[torchbearer]

You are dodging the point. The picture that "confederate" posted was not of a confederacy. It was of the confederacy as in the confederate states of the south. Travlr rightfully said that represented freedom for white people. (Actually that's wrong because that government enslaved white people through a draft). So cut the "I'm just talking about a form of government" bull. I'm fully aware of the Iroquois confederation, the "articles of confederation" and other confederation "forms of government". This is a flag of "a confederacy".

post 62.
slavery is immoral. the federal government was fine with it.
Lincoln was fine with slavery.
He only cared about ruling over all.

[h=2]Letter to Horace Greeley[/h]Written during the heart of the Civil War, this is one of Abraham Lincoln's most famous letters. Greeley, editor of the influential New York Tribune, had just addressed an editorial to Lincoln called "The Prayer of Twenty Millions," making demands and implying that Lincoln's administration lacked direction and resolve. President Lincoln made his reply when a draft of the Emancipation Proclamation already lay in his desk drawer. His response revealed his concentration on preserving the Union. The letter, which received acclaim in the North, stands as a classic statement of Lincoln's constitutional responsibilities. A few years after the president's death, Greeley wrote an assessment of Lincoln. He stated that Lincoln did not actually respond to his editorial but used it instead as a platform to prepare the public for his "altered position" on emancipation.

Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.
I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free. Yours,
A. Lincoln.

 

[Confederate]

Hey, this is the flag of a republic! Freeduuuuuum!

I didn't mention the word republic in my post. And even under any republic, no matter how free, you are still a slave if you don't have the full right to secession and self-governance.

Not that I'm necessarily against that, I'm a statist after all.

 

[Confederate]

The Great Emancipator:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union…"

 

[jmdrake]

post 62.
slavery is immoral. the federal government was fine with it.
Lincoln was fine with slavery.

Yeah yeah. I've heard that bullshit argument too many times to count. Lincoln completed compensated emancipation in D.C. and attempted it in all of the border states. And he made it clear he wasn't going to enforce the fugitive slave laws or allow the expansion of slavery outside of where it already was. The southern states saw that as a threat and said so.

And once again, when you're losing an argument you try to change the subject. I didn't say shit about whether Lincoln was trying to end slavery. I said that "confederate" had posted a flag of a particular confederacy and not some abstract "ideal" confederacy. So it's not "libtard" to look at that particular flag, which stood for a group that not only enshrined the "right" to own slaves in the founding document but also enslaved white people via a draft and say "Hey, that particular confederacy engaged in slavery."

 

[Confederate]

Yeah yeah. I've heard that bullshit argument too many times to count. Lincoln completed compensated emancipation in D.C. and attempted it in all of the border states. And he made it clear he wasn't going to enforce the fugitive slave laws or allow the expansion of slavery outside of where it already was. The southern states saw that as a threat and said so.

And once again, when you're losing an argument you try to change the subject. I didn't say shit about whether Lincoln was trying to end slavery. I said that "confederate" had posted a flag of a particular confederacy and not some abstract "ideal" confederacy. So it's not "libtard" to look at that particular flag, which stood for a group that not only enshrined the "right" to own slaves in the founding document but also enslaved white people via a draft and say "Hey, that particular confederacy engaged in slavery."

I don't why you're arguing with him about a picture I posted and he hasn't even mentioned.

I think you're just trying to change the subject because you realized I was right when I said that every citizen of the Union was and is a slave.

 

[jmdrake]

I didn't mention the word republic in my post.

I know you didn't. That wasn't my point. You posted a flag that stood for the CSA, and then you and TB want to say you're just talking about a confederacy. Like most people at RPF I think a republic is a good thing. (Ron Paul wants to restore the republic after all). But if I posted a flag of the U.S.S.R., which after all was a "republic", I don't think many people would look at that flag and say "Hey, that stands for freedom".

 

[torchbearer]

@jmdrake, I would also romanticize a slavery rebellion. the breaking up of the states was a good thing as it was breaking up the federal government monopoly. the slavery issue would be dealt with by my time for sure, because I wouldn't put up with the shit. but the south was right in so much as it needed weaker central government. if we had this happen today, it would be great.
yet ,you know, that now anyone talks about states leaving- you get chris Mathews tingling leg telling you those people are racist.
the OP is a product of that cancerous thought. our overlords are using the sins of our fathers to keep us fighting against our own paths to freedom now.
you can't even think about leaving the federal government without being called racist and support slavery. and its all false.

 

[Travlyr]

Slavery ended in the Northern states without a war, didn't it?

Yeah. But the Southern slave masters were determined to keep their slaves and started a war to do it. Who can blame them? If they would have won the war then whites might still be enjoying our slaves. Can you imagine owning Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Bill Cosby, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, or millions upon millions of other really cool black people? I would love to own any of them.

 

[torchbearer]

Yeah yeah. I've heard that bullshit argument too many times to count. Lincoln completed compensated emancipation in D.C. and attempted it in all of the border states. And he made it clear he wasn't going to enforce the fugitive slave laws or allow the expansion of slavery outside of where it already was. The southern states saw that as a threat and said so.

And once again, when you're losing an argument you try to change the subject. I didn't say shit about whether Lincoln was trying to end slavery. I said that "confederate" had posted a flag of a particular confederacy and not some abstract "ideal" confederacy. So it's not "libtard" to look at that particular flag, which stood for a group that not only enshrined the "right" to own slaves in the founding document but also enslaved white people via a draft and say "Hey, that particular confederacy engaged in slavery."

I'm trying to point out that when debating secession and civil war, slavery is not relevant to the topic. it is in fact, changing the argument.

 

[jmdrake]

I don't why you're arguing with him about a picture I posted and he hasn't even mentioned.

Don't be daft. Travlr responded to your picture by saying that was "freedom for white people" and torchbearer called that being "libtard" and you and he are dishonestly trying to pretend that you were just talking about a confederacy in the abstract.

I think you're just trying to change the subject because you realized I was right when I said that every citizen of the Union was and is a slave.

Only someone not being honest with themselves would follow this thread and think I was the one trying to change the subject. And no, I do not "realize" you were right. I "realize" you are confused. But that's okay.

 

[Confederate]

I know you didn't. That wasn't my point. You posted a flag that stood for the CSA, and then you and TB want to say you're just talking about a confederacy. Like most people at RPF I think a republic is a good thing. (Ron Paul wants to restore the republic after all). But if I posted a flag of the U.S.S.R., which after all was a "republic", I don't think many people would look at that flag and say "Hey, that stands for freedom".

Torchbearer was talking about the ideals of a confederacy, not the CSA in specific. I personally wish the CSA had won the War for Southern Independence and that two competing nations (or more) had been established in the present-day territory of the USA.

Republic doesn't mean freedom, though. All it means is that there is a government where the head of state is not a monarch. Either way, under a republic or a monarchy we are all slaves.

 

[jmdrake]

I'm trying to point out that when debate secession and civil war, slavery is not relevant to the topic.

A) That's not a syntactically correct sentence.
B) Confederate brought up "slavery" as in "everyone in the union is and was a slave" so it is relevant.
C) Considering that slavery was mentioned in the CSA constitution and in CSA declarations of secession it is relevant.
D) Your need to divorce slavery from the confederacy is laughable.
E) The draft = slavery. It's funny how you won't address that.