Conspiracy theorists - Do they hurt the Liberty movement?

[tangent4ronpaul]

The truether movement, hu?

It did NOT help when making initial contact to hand someone off the street a official RP2012 slim jim and a "9/11 was an inside job" flyer at the same time. It happened. It turned a lot of people off.

The Truether movement has matured. The film group in MI making that movie are pretty good! There have been several other groups that have gotten into good actions or LT projects. Overall, I'm still hesitant about them. It depends on the group, but when they were a toddler - OMG!!!!

EAKS!

-t

 

[idiom]

The liberty movement has been hurt precisely because it treated exposing conspiracy in this back burner, "wacky uncle" sense, and decimated the momentum of getting any policies changed, by treating the truth as some sort of secondary issue. As you note, Paul kept the matter on the back burner twice in his campaigns, and see how many primaries he won as a result, hmmm? Addressing the issues in an entirely left brain/rational way, to an electorate that is overwhelmingly entranced by neocon right brain emotionalism, is a twice proven failure. This partition theory of liberty discourse is completely false, and feeding the impotence of the movement in waking more people up about both freedom and truth.

The truth will set you free--both factors are on the same level. You simply can't properly talk about the loss of liberty and explosion of war over the last decade without addressing the false flag op that created the pretext for non-stop empire building and omni-surveillance. You can't talk about the evil of the Fed without addressing collusive manner of how it came to be, and how every president who has even incidentally printed money outside the control of the central banks ended up killed. Bashing "JFK took on the Fed" is a strawman, the point is that it IS accurate as a short hand way of summarizing the fate of each politician who allowed non-bank controlled currency to be issued. Why has no President since JFK even accidentially issued more US notes?

The conspiracy structures that entrench and expand tyranny are systemic, and cannot be answered by de-emphasizing their role in crushing freedom. A stance of condescension and derision of Jones et al as 'types' is in no way moving us towards a more serious advocacy of liberty, but rather towards providing cover and legitimacy to the current establishment's marginalization tactics. How many other coincidences, ruined careers and dead bodies are we supposed to ignore, to retain mainstream respectability? Is not this currying of establishment respect part of the problem, and the real reason for giving the exposure of conspiracy second rate status? The Birch Society was mocked and crazy-uncled a generation ago for even bringing up the Fed. So will it be alright for us to admit 9-11 was an inside job in another 30 years, only after we have been all locked up in the camps?

There is a difference between truths that are hidden, like the roll of blow back in foreign policy, where we know more or less exactly what is going on, who is behind it, what the did and when. We have whistle-blowers, insiders coming forward, or documentation.

Then there are thing like 9/11 where we have pretty strong suspicions the official story has holes in it but no alternative timeline that is anything other than speculative.

Its one thing to say, 'the administration is running a deficit and this hurts the economy', but another thing entirely to say, 'President Obama is trying to bring down the united states by running deficits as part of a 300 year old plan put together by Satanists from outer-space'.

Documentation and speculation are very separate.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

as weird as the world has been this last decade, I'm going to vote for "300 year old plan put together by Satanists from outer-space'."

-t

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Depends.

The frothing at the mouth conspiracy theorists who rant about about 9/11 being an inside job or the NWO at every Ron Paul or libertarian gathering do hurt the liberty movement. It's quite simple: they water down the liberty message with talks of conspiracy that make the liberty movement seem less credible. Especially if the facts of the conspiracy theory are way off (such as JFK being assassinated b/c he "took on the Fed"). That being said, even though they do hurt the liberty movement, they can simultaneously help the liberty movement by bringing in the numbers and by providing a stepping stone from conspiracy theory to more serious and intellectual libertarian theory. The Alex Jones types belong in this category

The calm and structured conspiracy theorist who focuses on the liberty message first and puts conspiracies on the back burner? They help the liberty movement, just so long as they make it clear that their opinions are their own, they take facts and research much more seriously, and don't try to intertwine conspiracy theories with liberty (at least not too much). I would put the John Birch Society (which I like and think their magazine is excellent) in this category. Ron Paul could arguably be put in this category - he believes there is some form of new world order, he believes the Trilateral Commission and CFR conspire to undermine America, and he believes a one world currency is in the pipeline (and in my opinion he would be right or partially right on all three counts. No I don't feel like going into details). As you'll notice, he does not often bring up these subjects and most certainly does not froth at the mouth about them. It is very clear that the message of liberty comes first from Ron Paul. So even if you hate conspiracy theories, you don't really care that Ron believes in some of them.

LOL BULLSHIT

 

[ninepointfive]

There's a scale to conpsiracy theory.

At one end there are people who put facts together, and make a hypothesis about how much B.S. the offical story is.
And at the other are people who incoherently babble about.

So there is a range, and one size doesn't fit all

 

[itshappening]

The liberty movement is born out of conspiracy because the establishment has perpetuated one for decades, this is undeniable!

Ron Paul was exposing the CIA's involvement in the drug trade in the 80's, that's a fact.

And you don't think all these globalist front groups like the Project for a New American Century are conspiracies ? They meet the very definition.

I hate the term 'conspiracy theory', it's just exposing the facts. The establishment likes to make out that anyone who veers from the official narrative is kooky for believing in 'theories' that are really facts.

Yes, these people do have an agenda, look at the European Union for example. Was that a globalist driven project or a free association of the people's of Europe like how the American Union was born? If you believe it to be the former then your a fully paid up conspiracy theorist.

 

[Stellwagen]

libertarian = conspiracy theorist in a philosophical kind of way. The idea is that centralization of power cannot be trusted, so we are always speculating as to what politicians are actually doing because we are passionate about a system of checks and balances, and currently our system seems veiled.

That being said, outspoken-emotional-conspiracy theorists do hurt the liberty movement a lot. Not that they're wrong, or that they shouldn't be passionate, but public opinion on conspiracies is very negative by nature.

This is the largest battle, I think, we face with pushing libertarianism mainstream. We draw the people who hate that their freedoms are restricted, but America is relatively free at the moment (in the eyes of most people), so we're associated with druggies, hippies, conspiracy theorists, homeschoolers, homesteaders, etc...... The public sees them as "crazy" so the movement is written off. We need more outspoken "generic/normal" people for the movement to break through. Even Rand's accent will be an issue, I think. The question is, does libertarianism need to go mainstream?

 

[BAllen]

Well, it's much easier to discredit someone, than to actually go after them with force. Get the msm to spread lies about someone's character, and they can eliminate a lot of their support base. How many sheeple have you heard refer to Ron as a 'kook'? They just repeat what they've heard without any investigation of their own.
Then you have websites with names like 'prisonplanet.com' that doesn't exactly lend itself to credibility, although there may some truth in there. Sensationalists can take a bit of truth and exaggerate it just for popularity purposes, like Alex Jones does.
Start with something that the populace is already familiar with like political correctness. Many recognize it, but they don't really know what it is or where it originated.

 

[FSP-Rebel]

I think that if people can be brought to the liberty message they'd be more inclined to hear and actually believe the info on conspiracies. While I tend to believe more in the conspiracies than not, I network with the liberty message and leave the rest for people to dig up for themselves. I don't do the research into the conspiracies as I used to since I've heard it all, plus the rabbit hole is too deep and I only have so much time to devote to activism. I think it's a better use of my time trying to bolster the movement by helping campaigns and being a delegate in the GOP along with friends and family. That said, we do need all hands on deck in this growing, multi-faceted movement.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

The liberty movement has been hurt precisely because it treated exposing conspiracy in this back burner, "wacky uncle" sense, and decimated the momentum of getting any policies changed, by treating the truth as some sort of secondary issue. As you note, Paul kept the matter on the back burner twice in his campaigns, and see how many primaries he won as a result, hmmm? Addressing the issues in an entirely left brain/rational way, to an electorate that is overwhelmingly entranced by neocon right brain emotionalism, is a twice proven failure. This partition theory of liberty discourse is completely false, and feeding the impotence of the movement in waking more people up about both freedom and truth.

The truth will set you free--both factors are on the same level. You simply can't properly talk about the loss of liberty and explosion of war over the last decade without addressing the false flag op that created the pretext for non-stop empire building and omni-surveillance. You can't talk about the evil of the Fed without addressing collusive manner of how it came to be, and how every president who has even incidentally printed money outside the control of the central banks ended up killed. Bashing "JFK took on the Fed" is a strawman, the point is that it IS accurate as a short hand way of summarizing the fate of each politician who allowed non-bank controlled currency to be issued. Why has no President since JFK even accidentially issued more US notes?

The conspiracy structures that entrench and expand tyranny are systemic, and cannot be answered by de-emphasizing their role in crushing freedom. A stance of condescension and derision of Jones et al as 'types' is in no way moving us towards a more serious advocacy of liberty, but rather towards providing cover and legitimacy to the current establishment's marginalization tactics. How many other coincidences, ruined careers and dead bodies are we supposed to ignore, to retain mainstream respectability? Is not this currying of establishment respect part of the problem, and the real reason for giving the exposure of conspiracy second rate status? The Birch Society was mocked and crazy-uncled a generation ago for even bringing up the Fed. So will it be alright for us to admit 9-11 was an inside job in another 30 years, only after we have been all locked up in the camps?

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.

 

[acptulsa]

I remember when Watergate was a conspiracy theory. Couldn't happen. That thing that couldn't happen made a lot of Democrats for a while...

 

[MelissaWV]

Yes, but not as much as forcibly silencing polite dissent would.

If we can't be civil with one another in discussing these issues, I don't hold out much hope for even taking a baby step in the right direction in the future. There are those who don't think we will ever achieve anything, and that being polite is fruitless, but then again why be part of a community where the mission statement is about "doing" if you think "doing" will gain us nothing at all?

Tact, kindess, empathy, and a bit of common sense... it's sad that those things are out the window (amid a flurry of excuses), but if it weren't conspiracy theorists it'd be something else. Every party or movement or family has its loud, crazy, disruptive seeds.

 

[pcosmar]

Simple question: Do "conspiracy theorists" hurt our cause?

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

 

[belian78]

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.

I wish I could rep you much more than just once.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

Really no more difficult than that.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

Yes definitely. The truth is far more important than winning elections. We need to educate enough people to stop the full implementation of a 1984/Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia spy police state on steroids. We may not have enough time to win elections before the SHTF. Will they allow voting in FEMA Camps? Can your corpse vote from a ditch?

 

[John F Kennedy III]

I wish I could rep you much more than just once.

Just telling it like it is bro.

 

[Anti-Neocon]

Discussion of potential conspiracies and the promotion of liberty should be as separate as possible.

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

I know that government conspiracies are a good reason to support liberty, but until they are proven, they should stay in the conspiracy theory realm and not bring down the liberty movement.

 

[Anti Federalist]

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

Umm, we already are looked down upon.

In fact, there is a growing subsection of both groups that are calling for our heads on a pike.

"Right wingers" have hated us for years, convinced we want the "Mooslim hordes" to rape their women and impose Sharia Law.

"Left wingers" hate us for exercising our rights, convinced we want to shoot their kids.

Pointing out facts, conspiracy related or otherwise, is not going to make them "like us".

"If you are going to tell people the truth, you had damn well better make them laugh, otherwise, they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Discussion of potential conspiracies and the promotion of liberty should be as separate as possible.

I think that both are great things to get involved in, but they shouldn't be seen as meshing together or conspiracy theories will be looked down on by progressives, and libertarian ideals will be looked down on by the more typical conservatives.

I know that government conspiracies are a good reason to support liberty, but until they are proven, they should stay in the conspiracy theory realm and not bring down the liberty movement.

We don't have time to appease others and that has been proven to be ineffective twice. We would have a much bigger tent and much more enthusiastic grassroots right now if we had promoted Liberty and seeking of truth, including all types of conspiracies. We need to seek and promote truth. You cannot do that if you are not allowed to ask questions.