Conspiracy theorists - Do they hurt the Liberty movement?

[cbrons]

Shut up, please, dude. Yer hurtin' the movement.

lol +r

Remember I started this thread as a cheap ploy for controversy on my radio show but since I didn't get any takers to discuss the issue on radio it became a discussion.

 

[Neil Desmond]

Our Cause?

I think that is the area of confusion.

Seeking the truth IS my cause.. Questioning the lies,, is a part of that.

Some people seem to think our cause is winning elections..
It is not mine. I have become convinced that the entire system is wholly corrupt.

I aim to educate folks on what could have been. what should have been,, and what may be possible on a limited basis in a few locations.

Very well put!

These are just a few things that I'd like to mention:

Part of being a liberty-minded individual is to be distrustful of government. If there's anything that would make an organization look bad, it would be the chumps who are part of that organization - not the other way around (e.g., people being skeptical or doubtful of a story that lacks evidence and isn't plausible).

I believe in justice just as much as I believe in liberty. The attacks that occurred on 9/11/01 should have been handled and investigated as a crime, yet they weren't; for example, evidence such as the steel beams from the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings was hauled away to be shipped to China and melted down to make a Navy ship - this is a tragedy of injustice.

Ad hominem attacks on people who don't want to buy an officially sanctioned or promoted story only serve to help the assailants get away with their attacks, crime, treason, etc. I don't buy what's generally referred to as the "official story" regarding the 9/11/01 attacks (i.e., that it can all be explained as an event carried out by 19 suicidal hijackers), but at the same time I'm not going to allege that it was an inside job without proof, evidence, or a good enough reason to do so (not that there is or isn't, but meaning that there are necessary and sufficient elements to do so).

Just because the 9/11/01 WTC attack planes crashed into the buildings, and the buildings collapsed shortly afterwards, does not mean that the planes crashing into the buildings caused these buildings to collapse. This is a type of logical fallacy known as Post hoc ergo propter hoc. When one poses the question cui bono (or says follow the money), one can arrive at the conclusion that the 9/11/01 WTC complex attack was at least in part a candidate case of insurance fraud.

 

[Indy Vidual]

Yeah, probably not.

I have at one time thought they can go do what they do, we can do what we do, and just have respect for the others who want to go a different route. You know, live and let live. The non aggression principle and all. And all meet in the middle with respect for one another.

I call those types who will have it no other way, the Libertarian Authoritarians. They are not actually promoting freedom, but their own ego. It's quite disgusting. What will Ron Paul's legacy become if we are to compromise on our virtue?

Some people are in this for different reasons. But when it becomes apparent that one side would like to fight the other, then it's a duty to call them out for their falsehoods and disrespect. We must not allow them the higher ground, and make sure the appropriate funds and hard work are placed into venues of positive action with freedom as the result.

And it's become obvious that the politicos which have recently become dubbed Ron Paul Inc. have no respect for the grassroots efforts, and have no respect for the principle of free will and a multiple pronged approach to restore the republic. They have actively sought to destroy anyone else who doesn't fit into the mold, and therefore I will expose them to the best of my ability.

The Republic has little time left, and those who wish to divide us, have no place in my company.

+Rep for venues of positive action

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Just about everybody. I see it all the time here and on Youtube. OMG Adam K! Don't say that, you'll hurt the movement! OMG if you're a truther, keep it quiet, you'll hurt the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement! Yer hurtin' the movement? Shut up, yer hurtin' the movement!

It's the libertarian's sad attempt at shutting up other libertarians they disagree with.

Yer hurtin' the movement!

Yep. Ron Paul would vehemently object to the Statist actions of many members on here.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

We are supposed to believe that their political ambitions are more important than the truth because, I guess, if they are able to succeed that they'll be sure to advance liberty once they're in the position of power. I wonder how many other people have gotten into politics with the goals of promoting what they believed to be a noble goal, 'played the game' and then suddenly reverted to a champion of a virtuous belief system once in power? Has that ever happened?

Well the excuse used to be that we should shut up so Ron Paul can have a real shot at becoming President. The election was over a month ago.

 

[Indy Vidual]

Theres a difference between being a conspiracy theorist and fear mongers who leads followers to dead ends.

Is it safe to watch that, or will we be assigned a special room at FEMA camp? :o

 

[Indy Vidual]

The Vietnam protests got serious when documentary proof came out.

Much of the massive protesting was a direct response to the draft, or so I was told.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Yeah, probably not.

I have at one time thought they can go do what they do, we can do what we do, and just have respect for the others who want to go a different route. You know, live and let live. The non aggression principle and all. And all meet in the middle with respect for one another.

I call those types who will have it no other way, the Libertarian Authoritarians. They are not actually promoting freedom, but their own ego. It's quite disgusting. What will Ron Paul's legacy become if we are to compromise on our virtue?

Some people are in this for different reasons. But when it becomes apparent that one side would like to fight the other, then it's a duty to call them out for their falsehoods and disrespect. We must not allow them the higher ground, and make sure the appropriate funds and hard work are placed into venues of positive action with freedom as the result.

And it's become obvious that the politicos which have recently become dubbed Ron Paul Inc. have no respect for the grassroots efforts, and have no respect for the principle of free will and a multiple pronged approach to restore the republic. They have actively sought to destroy anyone else who doesn't fit into the mold, and therefore I will expose them to the best of my ability.

The Republic has little time left, and those who wish to divide us, have no place in my company.

Amen brother. We are re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I just want a fucking life preserver. Let them have the piano.

 

[liberty2897]

Conspiracy theorists - Do they hurt the Liberty movement?

No.

Statists - Do they hurt the liberty movement?

Yes.

 

[idiom]

 

[UWDude]

who wrote this?

I especially like the part about people uninterested in the skills of the others. It is off-topic, but only tennis players like to watch tennis, and only karaoke singers really like American Idol.

 

[Indy Vidual]

According to one site:

who wrote this?

Right
By Light and Life Evangel

Great in most contexts.
"Never to mind what others say", while remaining open to learning from others.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

This^ Quote it. Paste it. Front page sticky it. The more this forum continues to ostracize all of us Crazy Uncle Ron Pauls it will become more and more irrelevant as time goes by. By 2016 it will be 5 people talking to themselves or a carbon copy of the mainstream GOP forums. Unless of course you decide to stop treating us and the truth and the seeking of truth the same way O'Reilly and Hannity and the RNC treated Ron Paul this campaign.

It's really sad that this forum pretty much mirrors a co-op like the GOP co-opted the Tea Party.

1. Let's promote Ron and his message to attract members.

2. Ostracize the truthers and treat them like the Establishment treats Ron to purge the truth and HEART of the movement. Stopping any real change from happening.

3. Let Matt Collins break all the forum rules he needs to in order to stamp out grassroots efforts before they have the chance to make a postive impact.

Seriously, any forum that really gave a shit about Liberty wouldn't do this to its members and Matt Collins wouldn't be allowed anywhere near here. He is a plant just like Jesse Benton.

Brought to you by a proud Crazy Uncle Ron Paul.

I would be really careful using the whole "Ron Paul does this and he hasn't won any primaries" argument. What's ironic is that we are discussing conspiracies (theories, facts, whatever), and we use that argument even though we know the very fact that Ron Paul hasn't won any primaries could be the result of a conspiracy. I happen to think it's been pretty well-demonstrated that this happened. There's no doubt that the media had an effect on his support among average joes.

Correlation does not equal causation, especially when there are only two cases available to study. No relationship can be established. "Ron Paul does this" and "Ron Paul doesn't win any primaries" may be facts, but they have no established relationship, strong or weak. They are exclusive.

 

[UWDude]

I know this:
There is a conspiracy in the media, to deliver a tailor made message regardless of the event.
Do I think Newtown was a MKUltra staged event? Unlikely.
Do I think there is a conspiracy, to chip away at the second, by trying to blame a certain gun, a "rifle" "assault weapon"
Abso-fucking-lutely.
Do I think there is, and has been a concerted, well guided effort to hide the effects of psychotropic drugs in all of these cases?
Abso-fucking-lutely. 100% sure.
Instead, it is the same tired cliches of guns, video games, and rock music.
There are no rights to take away by blaming the poisons in these poor kids' heads.
And do I believe there is a concerted effort, by an elite few, to take away our rights as their principle objective?
Again, 100% absolutely sure.
They are going after the second, because it is the ONLY guarantor of the first.
And more than anything, the liars in charge want to shut us up.

Why? Because they know:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. And to get people to kill people, they have to have an idea. And they don't want anybody getting any ideas. They know, if enough people figure out what crooked, evil, sociopathic megalomaniacs they are, that their $1000 silk ties will be their nooses.
They know if their soldiers and enforcers get the "wrong" ideas, that their armies and police apparatuses will be useless.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

LoL. It so childish to see people try to shut other people up because they are "hurting the movement".

+rep

The issue of whether conspiracy theorists hurt the movement is completely moot. What's more, the issue itself is a distraction, not just the conspiracy theories that come out. The whole idea that we should figure out whether someone is hurting the movement assumes that we can do anything about it. In other words, the debate is really an argument over who should have control over what gets out and what doesn't. It's stifling to liberty to say that we should try to make people stop speaking their minds.

This is about people who want control or influence over the movement to strengthen their own agenda. So I say we stop it with this silly business about who hurts and who helps. It doesn't make a damned bit of difference. People are going to say what they want to say, and we have to stop seeing that as a reflection on the collective "movement". Supporters of Ron Paul cannot represent Ron Paul, and we have to wake up to this fact.

 

[MelissaWV]

Movements need to move on.

That's what's causing most of the division right now. Some folks never believed anyone would win their election anyways, and the few that have will obviously just turn on us (and a subset of those folks are salivating, waiting for someone to vote "wrong" so they can post an article and preen about it). Some folks believed everyone would get elected THIS time, and did actually get a few people elected (but at what cost, both financially and philisophically). Some folks don't give a fig about the elections and mostly seem interested in a mixture of informing fellow forum members... and crying that the sky is falling (too many chemtrails). It's always been the makeup of the population on the forums, but now that the bulk are not focused on the same shiny object, it becomes more obvious how different we all are.

The forum still does have a mission statement. It still does have moderators (most of which are not even moderating anymore, but are still complained about on a regular basis). There still are alternatives to it. There's still a market for a variety of sites that cater to different segments of the population that want to engage in certain kinds of discussions. I don't think anyone's really being silenced, and I find a bit of irony in someone on these boards saying that one person expressing a "shhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion is unacceptable, because it silences the other person who has every right to say that the WTC was brought down by [insert theory].

It's time to reflect on what YOU want to happen next, and how YOU can help it happen. Will you run for office? Will you start prepping more seriously? Will you go completely off-grid? Will you support Rand? Thomas? Amash? Someone else? Will you toss your money at Ron and whatever new venture he captains? Will you continue to dig up stories (and be responsible enough to research them, and not post rumor as fact)? Will you find a pet cause and advocate for it? Will you find one injustice you can stop, maybe even on a local level, and rally to do just that? There are myriad things to do, and some of them are going to "look bad." It's time to stop linking everything back to one central movement, imo. The "crazy uncle" comparison is apt, but there's no direct blood relation.

So maybe, just maybe, I can hope that the fact I want people being held to rules they agree to abide by ... doesn't make me "Statist"? And that pointing out big glaring logic holes in folks' posts ... doesn't make me a Government plant/shill? Nah. Back to your regularly-scheduled game of "he started it."

 

[acptulsa]

No relationship can be established. "Ron Paul does this" and "Ron Paul doesn't win any primaries" may be facts, but they have no established relationship, strong or weak. They are exclusive.

That's probably an overstatement, but not much of one. You are completely right that Fox cost Ron Paul a bunch of primaries, and there have been shenanigans (such as when Louisiana combined all the other candidates into a 'coalition' in 2008) and possibly vote fraud. If there's a causal relationship here, it's Ron Paul doesn't 'play ball' and vote as he's told to, so he wins no primaries.

People are going to say what they want to say, and we have to stop seeing that as a reflection on the collective "movement". Supporters of Ron Paul cannot represent Ron Paul, and we have to wake up to this fact.

The trick, of course, is to do a good job rebutting the feeling in others. This isn't easy when the media is constantly playing its divide and conquer game, and telling people, 'See? You don't want to be associated with these other people.' On the other hand, there are people here who are here specifically because they were made to see the truth about, say, 9/11 and it made them mad enough to get off their duffs. So, I guess the thing to wish for is that we all become perfect, and perfectly able to ferret out what will make a person love liberty enough to fight for it and push just those particular buttons.

But in the end, our best strategy is to help everyone come to love liberty--be it messy or not, and whether the idea of one's crazy next door neighbor having liberty is frightening or not.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Who is trying to shut people up?

Everyone who argues passionately that conspiracy theorists hurt the movement. They may not admit it, but the fact is that they don't like free speech, and if they could have people only speak in ways they approve, they would. The whole concept is an appeal to a central ideology, one which we, as a collective, do not necessarily possess. It's all about the desire to possess control over what people say and what others hear.

The solution is to simply realize that people cannot represent other people without their consent and to include this as part of your message.

 

[UWDude]

I find a bit of irony in someone on these boards saying that one person expressing a "shhh you'll hurt the movement" opinion is unacceptable,

The only thing this movement has ever had, was the freedom of ideas. It is a movement of ideas. Furthermore, it only grows on common ground.

That means, some people will need to hear about the end of the world, Armageddon, and the return of Jesus Christ, to wake up.
Do I believe in all that?
No.
But, I would never dream of telling them to shut up because it "will hurt the movement".
Because I know, there are ears, that can only hear that message.
So a right-wing christian convinced these are the end times is not some kooky, counter-productive proselytizer trying to use "the movement" as a spring board for their own Christian agenda.
If they are truly in love with the concepts of freedom, then they will speak to those of like minds, and mix the essential message of freedom with the message of the end of days.

 

[MelissaWV]

The only thing this movement has ever had, was the freedom of ideas. It is a movement of ideas. Furthermore, it only grows on common ground.

That means, some people will need to hear about the end of the world, Armageddon, and the return of Jesus Christ, to wake up.
Do I believe in all that?
No.
But, I would never dream of telling them to shut up because it "will hurt the movement".
Because I know, there are ears, that can only hear that message.
So a right-wing christian convinced these are the end times is not some kooky, counter-productive proselytizer trying to use "the movement" as a spring board for their own Christian agenda.
If they are truly in love with the concepts of freedom, then they will speak to those of like minds, and mix the essential message of freedom with the message of the end of days.

Someone can tell you to shut up, but the only person who can really silence you in that scenario... is you.