Can we agree that if we abolished minimum wage and cut off welfare, immigration...

[LayZayFaire]

.....would not be the issue that it is today?

Let's face it, there is no point in discussing illegal immigration unless we address real points. A lot of illegal immigrants come to this country and work jobs that nobody would want to work at the minimum wage (higher in certain states than the federal minimum wage). Who works crap jobs in this country? Mainly teenagers and low skilled people.

Poor people are cuddled. They get welfare, medicaid, section 8, and other things that I am probably oblivious to. Why work when you're putting in the work, but are getting the same thing for free? The benefits of being a welfare state citizen actually cause people to turn down jobs that they would obviously have to work if we were not living in the welfare state.

Young people should know the value of hard work. I mean, they have the energy and whatnot, why not? My uncle owned a restaurant when I was a teen and I thought it was so cool to be a chef. So, I started working for him in the kitchen cooking orders, prepping food, and all the other things that go into being a cook. What I learned is, "Damn, this shit is fucking hard. I can't even take a couple minutes to take a break." It did a lot of good for me in interviewing for and finding jobs before I got my degree (good paying jobs), and when I got my current job in our terrible economic environment, my experience helped land me a position that hundreds of people applied for. I honestly can't believe the number of teens that have never worked a job, ever.

Most of all, if you are poor, and left with no choice, then you work your shit job and don't complain. Think about it, even if we did away with the minimum wage and other labor regulations, in employer's minds they would rather hire the illegal simply because the illegal won't have the attitude about working that Americans have (and are fortunate to be able to enjoy).

The biggest scam in this country currently, in my mind, is the Big Education Myth. Instead of encouraging young people to go to college and "make something of themselves", we should be telling them to "get a job, you lazy-ass." In the process, they might ACTUALLY learn something, even if by accident.

Put into perspective, Americans suck in respect to our social-domestic policy (paying people not to work), and have built an entirely new culture which would have been foreign to generations only a few decades back. Go to college so you won't bus tables is the current school of thought. Falls right in line with, "I'm too good to take that job" type attitude.

The old school American work ethic and a reform of our social policies are the only thing that "stop" illegals from "taking" our jobs.

Edit: Some food for thought. We already have an entire generation of young people that hold the idea that going to college is their saving grace. When they can't find jobs or jobs that match their "academic expertise", they will face the fact that reality is something different from what their parents, teachers, and politicians have told them. THEY WILL RIOT. I can bet you that this will be the up and coming political sentiment in the near future. They will blame the politicians, and it will be off with their heads as Gerald Celente would say, but it be nothing like the American Revolution.

 

[dannno]

The effects of illegal immigration are highly debatable due to the availability of government entitlements and programs with the simultaneous restrictions on working, paying taxes and living here openly and legally.

Some studies actually show that illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in government programs.

We know that immigration, legal or illegal improves the economy. Who knows, maybe without it the economic crisis of '08 would have been much worse.

The government really should document everybody who comes in with a work visa and let them work, assuming they aren't violent criminals. This would ensure a more level playing field for citizens who are living here.

 

[Sam I am]

So you're saying, that if we lower our standard or living to that of Mexico, They wouldn't be desperate to immigrate here?

Hard to argue with that.

 

[LayZayFaire]

We know that immigration, legal or illegal improves the economy. Who knows, maybe without it the economic crisis of '08 would have been much worse.

The government really should document everybody who comes in with a work visa and let them work, assuming they aren't violent criminals. This would ensure a more level playing field for citizens who are living here.

And I agree with you. It improves the economy in general, because they work a lot of the jobs that simply would not be taken due to minimum wage and welfare-style programs. Instead of fat camp, we should have farm-camp which would be kinda like college, except you learn something useful and you work for free to pay off the costs of employment and training. Or chef-camp, or car-mechanic camp, or whatever-your-mind-can-think-of. We need an alternative to college and we need it badly.

Bring back apprenticeships. Kids go to college and have to learn their real skills in the workplace which is a virtually an apprenticeship at least for the first few months (maybe even the first couple years for technical jobs)

I would also agree with encouraging legal employment for immigrants. Just don't cross the border and drop your babies here and assume child birth and free education.

 

[kah13176]

There is another problem that is almost NEVER brought up.

Rapid population growth combined with government monopolies over water supply/electricity causes supply shocks in those necessities. Then, governments try to extract more water, causing water shortages and all sorts of problems such as urban sprawl and pollution due to lack of competition/a pricing mechanism in those socialized industries.

 

[sailingaway]

I think finding agreement on this topic is a pipe dream. However, I don't think it helps much to say things wouldn't be a problem if conditions were entirely different, because they are not entirely different. Absolutely cut off all subsidies, including education, and things would be different, yes. But where do you see that happening?

 

[LayZayFaire]

I think finding agreement on this topic is a pipe dream. However, I don't think it helps much to say things wouldn't be a problem if conditions were entirely different, because they are not entirely different. Absolutely cut off all subsidies, including education, and things would be different, yes. But where do you see that happening?

Not to seem like an ass, but I will since you had to respond with the manner in which you posted.

The point of my post is to provide a different perspective. The American attitude especially among young people towards jobs is definitely discouraging. It's not all about allowing these people into the country. It's a symptom, not the actual problem.

To reply to your post -- Let's abolish most of the unconstitutional things that government does today. Things would be different, yes. But where do you see that happening?

Let's not talk about any type of governmental change or political activism for that matter. Reversing our baby-steps towards totalitarianism (we're pretty much there by the way), where do you see that happening? Do you have proof of it happening in the past? You tell me.

I'll stop making posts that discuss actual policy and instead spend my time slamming Perry and Bachman. It is a popularity contest after all, isn't it?

 

[FrankRep]

Not to seem like an ass, but I will since you had to respond with the manner in which you posted.

The point of my post is to provide a different perspective. The American attitude especially among young people towards jobs is definitely discouraging. It's not all about allowing these people into the country. It's a symptom, not the actual problem.

To reply to your post -- Let's abolish most of the unconstitutional things that government does today. Things would be different, yes. But where do you see that happening?

Let's not talk about any type of governmental change or political activism for that matter. Reversing our baby-steps towards totalitarianism (we're pretty much there by the way), where do you see that happening? Do you have proof of it happening in the past? You tell me.

I'll stop making posts that discuss actual policy and instead spend my time slamming Perry and Bachman. It is a popularity contest after all, isn't it?

If the United States even tried what you said, there would be UK-like riots x10 breaking out in the streets. NO politician would dare touch minimum wage and welfare.

 

[dannno]

So you're saying, that if we lower our standard or living to that of Mexico, They wouldn't be desperate to immigrate here?

Hard to argue with that.

No, they raise our standard of living by providing us with cheap labor so we can afford more things.

The reason jobs are scarce has everything to do with regulations. The reason illegal immigrants are seemingly able to compete better than citizens for jobs is because some of them don't pay income taxes..because they aren't allowed to be in the system. If they did, then they wouldn't have an unfair advantage for jobs.

 

[Anti Federalist]

No, they raise our standard of living by providing us with cheap labor so we can afford more things.

So, when we are all in prison, building kill bots for the military, at 25 cents an hour, unbridled prosperity will reign?

 

[dannno]

If the United States even tried what you said, there would be UK-like riots x10 breaking out in the streets. NO politician would dare touch minimum wage and welfare.

That is why Ron Paul and myself are both for increasing short-term protection of our border while we bring the troops home, save trillions on our overseas empire, end entire federal departments and put that money towards those who have become dependent on the system while creating new industries and jobs in our own country and starting on the road back to prosperity. Once that occurs, welfare programs can be transmitted back to the states to control along with minimum wage.

The states with the lowest minimum wage will attract the most industry (and immigrants), they will be the most profitable and states will begin to model their laws based on a more free market platform. Then the immigrants will spread out more, and might even decide to move back to Mexico if their Constitution that was in place before NAFTA was re-instated.

 

[dannno]

So, when we are all in prison, building kill bots for the military, at 25 cents an hour, unbridled prosperity will reign?

That's not an example of a free market.

It's important to consider when arguing for free market alternatives not to mix in the effects of anti-free market activity because it doesn't do the ultimate argument of having a free market any justice.

I am ok with a tiny little import tariff for the purposes of funding our Federal Govt. because I can't think of a better source for the income besides user fees, but I don't think tariffs should be put in place for the purpose of protectionism.

 

[FrankRep]

That is why Ron Paul and myself are both for short-term protection of our border while we bring the troops home, save trillions on our overseas empire, end entire federal departments and put that money towards those who have become dependent on the system while creating new industries and jobs in our own country and starting on the road back to prosperity. Once that occurs, welfare programs can be transmitted back to the states to control along with minimum wage.

The states with the lowest minimum wage will attract the most industry (and immigrants), they will be the most profitable and states will begin to model their laws based on a more free market platform. Then the immigrants will spread out more, and might even decide to move back to Mexico if their Constitution that was in place before NAFTA was re-instated.

That's the smart and realistic way of doing it. I call it Constitutional incrementalism.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Then the immigrants will spread out more, and might even decide to move back to Mexico if their Constitution that was in place before NAFTA was re-instated.

This is a fantastic point that needs to be made more often.

I watched a documentary the other day that showed how whole farming towns in Mexico were wiped out, and every man in them gone north looking for work, because NAFTA corn regulations and tariff eliminations made farming economically inviable, overnight.

 

[dannno]

This is a fantastic point that needs to be made more often.

I watched a documentary the other day that showed how whole farming towns in Mexico were wiped out, and every man in them gone north looking for work, because NAFTA corn regulations and tariff eliminations made farming economically inviable, overnight.

What was the documentary called? Rage Against the Machine has a concert/documentary combo they put out called "The Battle of Mexico City" that is really good and covers the NAFTA aspect and the Zapatistas who armed themselves for battle against their own government to get back the land that was stolen from them. Of course the U.S. backed the Mexican Military and they realized early on that it was a losing battle.

What happened was that there were millions of people who lived on the land in Mexico and their Constitution guaranteed that to the people who lived and worked on the land (aka property owners). In 1994, they changed a part of their Constitution that essentially took all of that land away and the government auctioned it off to the highest bidding corporations. The people couldn't afford to buy any land because the corporations owned it all, and the standard of living for farmers dropped because they all worked for low wages on these corporate farms.

The poverty rate in Mexico went from about 33% to about 66% after 1994!!

This was the main cause of the massive immigration into the U.S.

 

[Anti Federalist]

What was the documentary called? Rage Against the Machine has a concert/documentary combo they put out called "The Battle of Mexico City" that is really good and covers the NAFTA aspect and the Zapatistas who armed themselves for battle against their own government to get back the land that was stolen from them. Of course the U.S. backed the Mexican Military and they realized early on that it was a losing battle.

What happened was that there were millions of people who lived on the land in Mexico and their Constitution guaranteed that to the people who lived and worked on the land (aka property owners). In 1994, they changed a part of their Constitution that essentially took all of that land away and the government auctioned it off to the highest bidding corporations. The people couldn't afford to buy any land because the corporations owned it all, and the standard of living for farmers dropped because they all worked for low wages on these corporate farms.

The poverty rate in Mexico went from about 33% to about 66% after 1994!!

This was the main cause of the massive immigration into the U.S.

I wish I could recall, it wasn't the RATM one, I've seen that.

This one featured a female reporter following the lives of ten men as they moved north and crossed the border looking for work.

The segment about where they came from, was when they facts about NAFTA as it affected the Mexican population and farmers, came out.

I'm sure the change in constitutional land ownership helped as well.

And once again, there is no doubt in my mind, the globalists pushing NAFTA knew exactly what it would do, that it nothing to do with "free trade", which is why they were in favor of it.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

.....would not be the issue that it is today?

Let's face it, there is no point in discussing illegal immigration unless we address real points. A lot of illegal immigrants come to this country and work jobs that nobody would want to work at the minimum wage (higher in certain states than the federal minimum wage). Who works crap jobs in this country? Mainly teenagers and low skilled people.

Poor people are cuddled. They get welfare, medicaid, section 8, and other things that I am probably oblivious to. Why work when you're putting in the work, but are getting the same thing for free? The benefits of being a welfare state citizen actually cause people to turn down jobs that they would obviously have to work if we were not living in the welfare state.

Young people should know the value of hard work. I mean, they have the energy and whatnot, why not? My uncle owned a restaurant when I was a teen and I thought it was so cool to be a chef. So, I started working for him in the kitchen cooking orders, prepping food, and all the other things that go into being a cook. What I learned is, "Damn, this shit is fucking hard. I can't even take a couple minutes to take a break." It did a lot of good for me in interviewing for and finding jobs before I got my degree (good paying jobs), and when I got my current job in our terrible economic environment, my experience helped land me a position that hundreds of people applied for. I honestly can't believe the number of teens that have never worked a job, ever.

Most of all, if you are poor, and left with no choice, then you work your shit job and don't complain. Think about it, even if we did away with the minimum wage and other labor regulations, in employer's minds they would rather hire the illegal simply because the illegal won't have the attitude about working that Americans have (and are fortunate to be able to enjoy).

The biggest scam in this country currently, in my mind, is the Big Education Myth. Instead of encouraging young people to go to college and "make something of themselves", we should be telling them to "get a job, you lazy-ass." In the process, they might ACTUALLY learn something, even if by accident.

Put into perspective, Americans suck in respect to our social-domestic policy (paying people not to work), and have built an entirely new culture which would have been foreign to generations only a few decades back. Go to college so you won't bus tables is the current school of thought. Falls right in line with, "I'm too good to take that job" type attitude.

The old school American work ethic and a reform of our social policies are the only thing that "stop" illegals from "taking" our jobs.

Edit: Some food for thought. We already have an entire generation of young people that hold the idea that going to college is their saving grace. When they can't find jobs or jobs that match their "academic expertise", they will face the fact that reality is something different from what their parents, teachers, and politicians have told them. THEY WILL RIOT. I can bet you that this will be the up and coming political sentiment in the near future. They will blame the politicians, and it will be off with their heads as Gerald Celente would say, but it be nothing like the American Revolution.

No, we cannot agree, because a good number of people here are not open to reason.

 

[pcosmar]

Can we agree that if we abolished minimum wage and cut off welfare, immigration...
.....would not be the issue that it is today?

Yes, But then what excuse would the Government use for the prison complexes they build?
(there was never any intention of using them for the Reportedly intended purpose)

 

[PreDeadMan]

first of all a company would be foolish to hire so called "illegal immigrants" if they are not qualified enough to do said job. lol .... the low end labor jobs let there be competition nobody should have a guaranteed job. Competition is good in the marketplace and is good for businesses hiring in the work place... As technology progresses the low end labor jobs will be replaced by i dunno whatever the free market comes up with and new jobs will open up.... That's why it's important to get the government out of the marketplace with its regulations and intervention. Like anything the government gets involved in it retards progress and costs a hell of a lot of money.

 

[LayZayFaire]

No, they raise our standard of living by providing us with cheap labor so we can afford more things.

The reason jobs are scarce has everything to do with regulations. The reason illegal immigrants are seemingly able to compete better than citizens for jobs is because some of them don't pay income taxes..because they aren't allowed to be in the system. If they did, then they wouldn't have an unfair advantage for jobs.

Illegals are also shielded from a lot of labor regulations that companies would never allow with citizens because of possible liability.