Can a non Christain under any circumstances go to heaven(Christians only)

[Revolution9]

The newborn is in Christ. It is through interaction with the world they become adulterated.

HTH
Rev9

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Condemnation begins with the understanding of good and evil.

 

[Sola_Fide]

The newborn is in Christ. It is through interaction with the world they become adulterated.

HTH
Rev9

This is not Biblical.

The world does not make a person evil. Rather it is Adam's sin nature that is imputed to us by virtue of him sinning while he acted as our representative and federal head. We are born sinners.

Just like in salvation, Christ acts as His people's federal head and the merit of His sinless life is imputed to us on our behalf, thereby declaring us innocent. In salvation, we are born again.

 

[Krugerrand]

This is not Biblical.

The world does not make a person evil. Rather it is Adam's sin nature that is imputed to us by virtue of him sinning while he acted as our representative and federal head. We are born sinners.

Just like in salvation, Christ acts as His people's federal head and the merit of His sinless life is imputed to us on our behalf, thereby declaring us innocent. In salvation, we are born again.

In salvation, or in baptism? How may times is somebody born again?

 

[YumYum]

The newborn is in Christ. It is through interaction with the world they become adulterated.

HTH
Rev9

Good point, which can raise the question: How much "interaction can we have with the world" and not be adulterated?

I know that erowe1 mentioned that he has wondered if it is favorable in God's eyes to be politically involved, and I have wondered the same thing. Or, maybe involved by voting and sending contributions, but refrain from being a "spectacle" to the world. Of course, this is up to each individual to decide. We live in the world, and we have to survive, but we must ask ourselves "where do we draw the line"?

 

[Aliangel]

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in God and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[ Quran 5:69]

 

[YumYum]

This is not Biblical.

The world does not make a person evil. Rather it is Adam's sin nature that is imputed to us by virtue of him sinning while he acted as our representative and federal head. We are born sinners.

Just like in salvation, Christ acts as His people's federal head and the merit of His sinless life is imputed to us on our behalf, thereby declaring us innocent. In salvation, we are born again.

Jesus was born of a sinful woman; Mary. Why was He not a "sinner", since He "inherited" sin? It's because He never committed a sin. Had He sinned, He would have been a sinner. It's "sinning" that makes you a "sinner".

 

[YumYum]

Condemnation begins with the understanding of good and evil.

True, because once we learn what is evil, we either turn away from practicing it, or we ignore what we have learned and continue to practice sin, thus condemning ourselves.

With the exception of Judas, none of Jesus apostles or disciples that God chose returned to practicing sin. People that have no deception in their hearts from birth will never return to practicing sin once God chooses them.

 

[Krugerrand]

True, because once we learn what is evil, we either turn away from practicing it, or we ignore what we have learned and continue to practice sin, thus condemning ourselves.

With the exception of Judas, none of Jesus apostles or disciples that God chose returned to practicing sin. People that have no deception in their hearts from birth will never return to practicing sin once God chooses them.

I seem to remember stories of prideful apostles arguing over who sat at the right and left. I remember a story about denying Jesus three times.

 

[YumYum]

I seem to remember stories of prideful apostles arguing over who sat at the right and left. I remember a story about denying Jesus three times.

I am referring to "practicing sin", which is willfully sinning. Even when we are chosen, we sin because we are "weak" and we repent of our sin. A practicer of sin doesn't repent, and continues practicing the same sin over and over.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Jesus was born of a sinful woman; Mary.

So?

Why was He not a "sinner", since He "inherited" sin?

Because He is God who put on flesh. Therefore He could not sin.

It's because He never committed a sin.

It was because of His divine nature that He did not sin.

If He had would not have had a divine nature, He would have sinned. Thankfully He could not have sinned, and because of His sinless life, His merit has been imputed on my behalf and I have been declared innocent. It's wonderful to think about! When Scripture says that Christ is the "second Adam", this is what it means.

Had He sinned, He would have been a sinner.

*shrugs*

Since its not possible that God can sin, there is no reason to even think this way.

It's "sinning" that makes you a "sinner".

Nope. In Adam all die, because Adam's sin nature is imputed to them. We sin...because we are sinners...because Adam's sin nature is imputed to us.

Just as all who are in Christ are made alive. Christ's sinless life is imputed to us who are in Him in our behalf and therefore we are declared legally innocent. It's wonderful to even think about and it makes me smile even when typing these wonderful truths.

God loves me? A sinner who is worthy of nothing but judgement? God put on flesh and lived a sinless life so that I could be saved from the judgement that would have resulted from my sin? It's too wonderful to even imagine! Praise God.

 

[Aliangel]

So?



Because He is God who put on flesh. Therefore He could not sin.



It was because of His divine nature that He did not sin. If He had would not have had a divine nature, He would have sinned. Thankfully He could not have sinned, and because if His sinless life, His merit has been imputed on my behalf and I have been declared innocent. It's wonderful to think about! When Scripture says that Christ is the "second Adam", this is what it means.



*shrugs*

Since its not possible that God can sin, there is no reason to even think this way.





Nope. In Adam all die, because Adam's sin nature is imputed to them. We sin...because we are sinners...because Adam's sin nature is imputed to us.

Just as all who are in Christ are made alive. Christ's sinless life is imputed to us who are in Him in our behalf and therefore we are declared legally innocent. It's wonderful to even think about and it makes me smile even when typing these wonderful truths.

God loves me? A sinner who is worthy of nothing but judgement? God put on flesh and lived w aimless life so that I could be saved from the judgement that would have resulted from my sin? It's too wonderful to even imagine! Praise God.

Ezk 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. ''

 

[pcosmar]

"under any circumstances go to heaven"

It is not my place to judge. The only way anyone gets to heaven is by the mercy of God.
He is the final Judge. He can extend mercy to whom he will.

But a better question,, Why would anyone that rejects God want to be in Heaven?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Ezk 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. ''

This is temporally true. Everyone will die a physical death because he has sinned (because Adam's sin nature is imputed to them).

This passage is temporal, not eternal.

 

[Aliangel]

This is temporally true. Everyone will die a physical death because he has sinned (because Adam's sin nature is imputed to them).

This passage is temporal, not eternal.

You know i find Ezk 18:20 intresting because in Quran chapter 53 verses 38-41 it has an eerily similiar verse, except the Quran one is much more clearer in regards to concept of original sin.

"That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (of good and bad). And that his deeds will be seen, Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense [fair] "

God knows best

 

[Revolution9]

This is not Biblical.

The world does not make a person evil. Rather it is Adam's sin nature that is imputed to us by virtue of him sinning while he acted as our representative and federal head. We are born sinners.

Just like in salvation, Christ acts as His people's federal head and the merit of His sinless life is imputed to us on our behalf, thereby declaring us innocent. In salvation, we are born again.

That is your and your churches interpretation. This is why I do not attend churches as they want to strip my vision and replace it with theirs, yet my vision is what God has given me as a gift. That is not my experience, observation nor heart knowing. The innocent have their song.."Jesus loves me this I know. For The Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him belong. They are weak and He is strong". This little kid's song of the Christian's says alot more about who is in Christ that your doctrinal approach. And...I use words SPECIFICALLY... adulterated does not mean evil. You argue with yourself.

Rev9

 

[Revolution9]

Good point, which can raise the question: How much "interaction can we have with the world" and not be adulterated?

How much and what kind of metal can be considered an adulteration of gold might be a good analogy to begin a course of thinking from. What happens to the qualities of the gold when various adulterants are added and what additions would not be considered adulterants? If adulterated how does one go about re-refining to the original state.

Rev9

 

[angelatc]

What if an infant dies. How could he ever accept Christ? Is some kind of exemption made for him? The same would apply to some random guy who's never heard of Christ.

What if someone is simply not Christian?

Do we, as human beings, know any of this for sure? Does God make exemptions for some?

Christian beliefs depend on which denomination you belong to, and I only know a little bit about some of them. I think that the Catholics believe that if a baptized child dies before he's had his first communion, he gets a free pass on the sins he may have committed.

Some Christians believe that nobody goes to heaven right away. Everybody goes to purgatory until the Judgement Day or Rapture. Some groups believe that there's still time to repent after you die, too.

 

[Mini-Me]

"under any circumstances go to heaven"

It is not my place to judge. The only way anyone gets to heaven is by the mercy of God.
He is the final Judge. He can extend mercy to whom he will.

But a better question,, Why would anyone that rejects God want to be in Heaven?

I just skimmed through the thread to get the general tone, but I think your question is interesting. It depends on what you mean by "rejects God." If someone believes in God, believes he knows what God is like, and decides, "Nah, not for me," then your implication is correct: They obviously wouldn't particularly want Heaven, either. Heaven and God go hand in hand.

However, not all non-Christians, agnostics, atheists, etc. explicitly reject God in such a way. Adherents to other religions simply believe in a different account, whereas atheists believe no God or afterlife exists, and agnostics have no strong belief in any particular account (though they might rule out one or more as too far-fetched). These people will eventually die, like everyone else. If they find upon death that they were mistaken, they would naturally alter their beliefs to suit the new evidence. At that point, they might decide that not only does God exist, but He's pretty swell, and they'd prefer Heaven over Hell, Hades, Paradise, Barbados, oblivion, Oblivion, Skyrim, or pretty much anywhere else, real or imaged.

To put your question into a context with less emotional investment, I think of it much like this:
A large group of companions is traveling through the desert. One man is named Moses. He doesn't quite know where he's going, but he insists that he keeps getting these flashes of divine insight. He says that if people follow him long enough - like 40 years - they'll probably make it out of the desert into the promised land. He says it's so awesome that everyone will fight and kill each other over it for thousands of years. It's just that good.

Another man named Jesus promises that there's a magical oasis to the west, which is far better than anything outside of the desert or anywhere else. A younger bearded fellow named Muhammad agrees about the magical oasis, but he swears it's to the north. Krishna suggests that if people keep walking long enough, they're bound to find the magical oasis anyway. Instead of walking in a single direction though, his idea is to walk in an outward spiral to make sure you don't pass it up. Dawkins, ever the pessimist, says he does not believe in a magical oasis, and it is unwise to dwell on dreams. Instead, he wants to make the best of it here and dig deep looking for water. Huxley states that he finds most of these opinions valuable and one or two rather foolish. He's content finding his own path, since he doesn't have any strong belief or emotional investment in anyone else's convictions.

Unlike most of the travelers, Satan is not looking for the oasis at all. In fact, he knows exactly where it is, because he just came from there. Because he suffers from aquaphobia, Satan convinces himself and a few others that the oasis is bad news, and they should run in the other direction if they see it. He's also a huge jerk with a passive aggressive personality, so he erects signposts all over the desert pointing in the wrong direction. After some thought, he also decides to put up a bunch of cell phone towers and distract people with shiny tech gadgets (expertly carved from rocks and snakeskins).

After some discussion, the group decides to split up. The people following Jesus eventually come upon the oasis, whereas everyone else just continues to wander the desert. One by one, these other groups start to get cell phone calls from the owner of the oasis. (Satan begins to regret putting up those stupid towers.)

Muhammad gets the call first and hears, "Uh, guys? Where are you? Your friends got here like, forever ago." He kicks himself for leading his group in the wrong direction, but he sheepishly fesses up:
"Guys, um...I don't know how to say this, but...well, here goes. I was sort of wrong...partially, mind you...and Jesus was right. The oasis really is in that direction, soooo...let's hang a hard left...and a little more left after that...okay? Please don't kill me."

Moses gets the call next. Without saying anything, he pretends as though the caller had the wrong number, but he subtly alters his course.

Krishna gets the call next and immediately declares, "Hey everyone, Jesus was right. This exhaustive search is pretty harrowing, so let's head where they are straight away."

Huxley also receives the call. He replies, "Wait, you really found it? You say it was to the west? Hrm. That didn't seem quite right before, but I'm glad you got there! I'm headed there right now, so I'll see you in a bit."

Off in the middle of the desert, Satan continues monitoring the cell phone network, listening in on every call. Enraged, his blood vessels bulge from his head, to the point where it looks like his veins have veins of their own. All he can do is pace back and forth, angrily muttering to himself, "Those damn gates had better be shut tight, or I.Will.Be.PISSED." A few feet away, his misanthropic friends just carve message after message into the sand about how much oases are "totally lame."

Meanwhile, Dawkins and his friends are taking shifts digging and lounging in a small corner of the desert. They had dug deep enough to find some dirty water, and all in all they knew they had made a passable home. It wasn't easy, but they found a way to scrape by in modest comfort. Sipping on his dirty water petri dish martini, Dawkins reacts to his ringing phone with smug satisfaction. Anticipating frantic inquiries about how to get back, Dawkins puts the call on speaker phone for everyone to hear...and it is not the kind of call he expected. A few people's heads explode right on the spot. Dawkins himself faints in the middle of the call, but his buddy Sam Harris barely manages to keep consciousness. His thoughts racing, Sam sputters, "KIGGAHURGHURGH! OMG, OMG, WTF?!? I was wrong! I was wrong? How could I be wrong? The freaking oasis exists after all? How can this be? HOW CAN THIS BE?!?"

A few moments after Sam calms down, Dawkins awakes with a foggy memory. Sam swears up and down that the call came from the oasis (and that it's "even better than they said"), but Dawkins continues to reject the notion that he knows - just KNOWS - is so exceedingly improbable. A few days pass, while Sam and a few others desperately plead with Dawkins and a few holdouts to come with them to the oasis. Along with Dawkins, a few refuse to budge whatsoever, too proud to admit their error. After about a week, Sam decides that he's convinced about as many people as he's ever going to, so he finally sets off for the oasis with some companions.

After another grueling trek through the desert, each group finally reaches the oasis. Slowly, the stragglers all line up in front of the gate. After some time, the gatekeeper - looking much like someone from The Wizard of Oz - emerges to ask, "Why would you want to come to this oasis now? I mean, you turned down the opportunity earlier. What changed?"

Moses says, "Navigation was...never my strong point."

Muhammad just looks at his feet and hides his face, which is redder than spanked monkey ass.

Krishna gives a short speech about the difference between depth-first-search and breadth-first-search, and one of his friends remarks, "Hey, I didn't know you were a programmer."

Sam Harris forgets himself for a moment and shouts, "Really? REALLY?!? YOU KNOW DAMN WELL WHAT CHANGED!" After a second, he quiets down and stands next to Muhammad to appear a little less red.

Satan keeps screaming, "It's a trap!" but everyone knows what's up at this point. Now that they know everything for a fact, very few are going to buy the garbage he's selling anymore.

Huxley stares at the gatekeeper for a moment, and the gatekeeper stares back. Slowly, Huxley says, "That phone call gave me a bit more to go on than I had before, you know."

The gatekeeper cocks his head a bit, looks at the lot, and says,

• "Well, alright then. What are you waiting for? Come on in!" (Turn to page 140.)
• "Well, bust my buttons! Why didn't you say that in the first place? That's a horse of a different color! Come on in!" (Turn to page 140.)
• "ROFLCOPTER, FAIL!" (Turn to page 197.)
• "I'm so sorry, but you guessed wrong. You may know better now, but we have this policy, you see, and...well, we're pretty big on getting it right the first time." (Turn to page 197.)

NEXT, ON CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE:
...

 

[reillym]

Is santa claus in heaven? What about the easter bunny? How did they get in?