BREAKING: Carl Levin to Retire

First off, let me preface my points by saying that I totally understand our finite resources and if Bright goes up against Graham I think that would be a more worthwhile effort (if we can only pick one) because it's an unquestionable red state and taking out the scumbag would boost moral through the roof as well as send a shocking message in regards to our movement's growing influence and strength. I can't speak on LFA's part as they have hinted their interests in funding both JAmash and the primary opponent to Mitch (which I disagree with).

Regarding MI in 2014, yes the unions will be doing all they can to defeat republicans from top to bottom but it's not as if the republicans will sit idly by and allow their majorities to go up in smoke. Despite my lack of enthusiasm for our current chair, the man can raise absurd amounts of money plus it's rumored that Devos will be dropping some serious coin up here on our behalf. While you constantly hang on to nostalgia by regurgitating your mantra of the past 50 years of Senatorial success (or lack thereof) by republicans, the state has gradually changed over that time especially during my lifetime. Detroit was once a booming metropolis yet now it can be defined as just a big city w/ no where near the staying power it once had in terms of inner city votes or importance. The way that city has been ran into the ground actually entices suburban opinion to defer to the Governor as far as attempting to get the city's budget in order and he knows this. As the city has been depleted in revenue, size and population its affect on the state's political body has diminished by half or more over the last 10-15 years. Now, the state senate has a republican majority 26-11 as does the state house 59-51 despite Obama's reelection efforts and Stabenow's manhandling of Hoekstra.

I will grant that prez years here feature democratic strength over republicans and I'm not sure if that's due to lack of excitement in the republican isle for their statewide candidates or perhaps it's that coupled with the incumbent reelection rates. Although I didn't expound on this as much in my original post I have mentioned the midterm dynamics in other threads about JAmash's chances. My main concern is the likely primary but if there's more than 2 people running JAmash would fare well as his supporters would be uniting and the remaining block would be split. Rogers is strong in the state central area, Miller is fairly well known yet watching her speak is about as exciting as folding socks yet both could raise decent amounts of money. Of course, so could we over and above the PACs. Alone, he raised over a million just for his reelection and that could easily be doubled at least or more. Hoekstra and his people may have spent $5mil against Stabenow but quite frankly no amount of money could rescue him from the conservative/libertarian defection let alone be enough to take on an entrenched incumbent in a presidential year.

As I've stated in other threads, the 2010 gubernatorial election turnout was ~3.25 mil and the 2012 prez election turnout was ~4.7 mil plus whatever Johnson, the Greens, CP, Natural Law got and we'll never know the RP write-ins. No matter the GOTV efforts by either side in 2014, the midterm turnout will most likely mirror the 2010 turnout in a similar fashion with perhaps an extra 100k or so. The dems' problem is that they need to come up with 2 top notch candidates to take on Snyder and retake the open Senate seat yet all I've seen in the rumor mill is back benchers that have a lot of heavy lifting to do to even mount a respectable showing. JAmash is on equal footing if not better than any dem they throw up since he has nationwide donors outside of PACs. Despite the RTW issue and the unions' pumping up their chests, they got their ass handed to them as they spent a fortune pushing the two recent ballot proposals to institutionalize collective bargaining for private and public workers into the state constitution and got waxed even tho Stabenow won big and Obama did well meaning that over 500k dems (~20% of all dem voters) voted against the unions. So, with this in mind, lower midterm turnout, undoubtedly this election favoring republicans nationwide and usually the GOP fares well in recent times in MI in midterms I'd say that this will be a republican grab when you factor in the Governor's reelection efforts. Not to mention, the conservative/libertarian grassroots comprised 48% of the republican party per its recent state convention if we take the state chair race into account and that's with quite a few of our people either sitting out or non-committed for whatever reason. Also regarding this race, it took $300k to produce the 52% turnout for the establishment with a mere $10k turning out the grassroots delegates. Even if we don't take this chair race into account, we went from having 0 on the state central committee to having 16/91 explicitly pro-liberty members with likely double or triple conservative-leaning members meaning that coalitions built in the state central body can be made against the establishment wing in the overall scheme of things thus showcasing a monumental shift in the landscape of the state party apparatus. So, a leaning republican midterm bolstered by a gubernatorial reelection against dem back benchers w/ a much more conservative makeup of the party itself coupled with a general dissatisfaction for establishment types brewing on the right and we have a perfect storm to win an open Senate seat w/ someone who the vast majority of the conservative grassroots could be excited by, unlike a Hoekstra. Plus, if Snyder and team have a brain in their head, they'd realize this excitement factor could only benefit them in their beneficial reelection status in a non-prez election.

I appreciate all the concerns people have about this race but I wanted to provide at least a semi-comprehensive examination of all the dynamics that come to mind in this race be it the midterm status, the inflated impression of what the dems can pull off here in said election, the growing influence of the grassroots in the state party as well as in all district parties across the state and the overall shift of the state from what it was once known overwhelmingly for. Yes, JAmash has a safe House seat but I'd say it would be hard to envision a better opportunity for the likes of one of our own to jump to the Senate under different circumstances. I'd venture to say that even the likes of Rogers or Miller could win this on the heels of the Governor's reelection but then we'll be stuck with the likes of another McCain or Graham here in MI thus minimizing any gains made out of SC. If JAmash doesn't run for this, whether the dem or rep win the seat they'll be entrenched for their reelection down the line and Stabenow ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Therefore, if JAmash sees what I see here on the ground he should go for it.
You always provide valuable insight. It is very much appreciated. I'm cautious for it being Michigan for one, and I'm not sure if we could raise the amount of money it would take to fund multiple liberty candidates at 5 million each. Do we focus like a laser beam, raise 10 million, and take out someone like Graham; or do we fund multiple races and risk losing them all? Tough call.
 
What's with calling people "naysayers"? Can we not have a friendly debate about the risks/rewards of running for Senate? You do understand that everyone here likes Amash A LOT right?
We're all on the same side here so let's dispense with the name calling. We're merely discussing strategy.

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Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know a thing or two about Michigan. Or would you prefer a picture of me wearing my Calvin Johnson jersey or my Matthew Stafford for proof? ;) The best thing we can do is look at the poll numbers and go from there. If a bunch of high-powered Republicans or some very popular Democrats come out of the woodwork and many of the polls show Amash having little chance, it is time to cut our losses and leave Amash in the Senate. If the polls show him running competitively, then go for it. Levin retires and within a day, people are already calling others "naysayers" and tossing ad hominem attacks. Although I can't be mad at Kathy, who I must +rep once a week. Oh RPF, why do I love you so much?

Supermario: From those of us who have been to the rodeo a few times, trust me, we can run one, maybe two big candidates, tops. Rand's undertaking was gigantic the last time and took tons of energy and resources. For everyone saying the Senate Conservatives Fund and Club For Growth and such count as support. Think again. Remember Rand in 2010? Both the SCF and CFG took forever to get on board even though all of us bombarded them with emails. If another Republican they like runs, they will stay out of it until the General.
 
I'm cautious for it being Michigan for one, and I'm not sure if we could raise the amount of money it would take to fund multiple liberty candidates at 5 million each. Do we focus like a laser beam, raise 10 million, and take out someone like Graham; or do we fund multiple races and risk losing them all? Tough call.
As I mentioned, Graham should be priority #1 if nothing else it'll be a monumental thank you effort to Rand for his recent efforts and a gigantic middle finger to the establishment writ large. That said, these idiots that attack Rand only make him stronger and more formidable to the base. I imagine JAmash is being advised on his potential race by Team Rand and all the associated factions that support it be it financial interests or potential endorsements. Also and much to my chagrin, JAmash endorsed the current state chair's reelection so he might get some cover up top in the primary, don't know. In my post you linked to, I extrapolated how I see this next election going red so my only concern is divvying up the grassroots' resources effectively. On one hand I see taking out Graham to be using up most of what we got to offer, leaving less for Brannon and JAmash. On the other, I'd consider the pool of grassroots money is bigger this time around because of our growing influence in the party and the expansion of the grassroots which Rand is making possible. Not to mention, you'd have the likes of Levin, Hannity, Beck and others giving air time to anti-establishment primary opponents as well as articulate conservative challengers to open seats thus raking in even more money and making the grassroots base expand further. I would also assume that the conservative PACs will be spending big money in key areas to optimize their takings in terms of conservative candidates that aren't off the wall and sending token money to other random republican Senate candidates. Let's face it, out of the open seats and ones that they'll want to take back from democrats, JAmash and Brannon will be top priorities over the likes of what WV can offer as a GOP replacement to Rockefeller. Also, Broun will be a priority in GA but not in the vein of the former two.

That said, it remains to be seen what Rove is up to and where he'll flex his muscles which actually could be the kiss of death these days based on his dismal track record and hatred among the non-establishment folks. If we can get JAmash through the primary, the party will pay the general election tab for the most part since it becomes a Snyder-Amash package. Despite what Snyder has done to irk conservatives, the bottom line is the state is back on track (from where it was) and seems to be slightly improving. If Snyder rules out Obamacare exchanges, he'll shore up his conservative base but this remains to be seen. Having a conservative house and senate basically protects him from himself (from becoming a Romney) in this instance if they get the message across and our C4L has been active all across the state getting massive amounts of petitions flooded to Lansing over this. So, I'll defer to JAmash and let him check the real pulse w/ his peeps and support him if he sees the light but I think we're tough and big enough these days to handle a few Senate races. Because let's face it, we'd be spending another mill or more getting him reelected (which is already in the liberty budget) to the House so we're only diverting a few mill more for a win at this Senate seat.
 
Seems like some major people in MI are deciding against a run. Miller being the biggest of the names.

I hope if Justin does run, we have someone waiting in the wings to run for his open house seat.
 
So his name recognition is 29% as 71% of people are "not sure" how they feel about him. That is terrible news. Sure, there is a ton of time between now and the Primary, but this is a bad sign and means a ton of money will have to be spent on this race.
 
So his name recognition is 29% as 71% of people are "not sure" how they feel about him. That is terrible news. Sure, there is a ton of time between now and the Primary, but this is a bad sign and means a ton of money will have to be spent on this race.
The same could be said about a hypothetical democrat considering this was done before Levin decided to bow out. And, this was a 35 question poll and likely had a bunch of hangups or non answers skewing this to only those that do answer foreign calls that will participate in a lengthy examination. I mean, they're asking if you're a MI or state fan or whether or not you're a fan of the Tigers or not. Those outside of JAmash's district wouldn't know of him unless they had a pro or con opinion about him and obviously many establishment types would not favor him up front, thus leaving him a full 71% that aren't predisposed to not liking him. So, this is meaningless and they wasted their money before the dynamics changed in such a big way.

Key point to take away however:
Justin Amash has a 9/20 favorability rating
and trailed Levin 49/34. Mike Rogers has a 16/19 favorability rating and trailed Levin
49/33. Bill Schuette has a 20/25 favorability rating and trailed Levin 51/32. And Roger
Kahn had a 5/15 favorability rating and trailed Levin 50/30.
 
As I mentioned, Graham should be priority #1 if nothing else it'll be a monumental thank you effort to Rand for his recent efforts and a gigantic middle finger to the establishment writ large. That said, these idiots that attack Rand only make him stronger and more formidable to the base. I imagine JAmash is being advised on his potential race by Team Rand and all the associated factions that support it be it financial interests or potential endorsements. Also and much to my chagrin, JAmash endorsed the current state chair's reelection so he might get some cover up top in the primary, don't know. In my post you linked to, I extrapolated how I see this next election going red so my only concern is divvying up the grassroots' resources effectively. On one hand I see taking out Graham to be using up most of what we got to offer, leaving less for Brannon and JAmash. On the other, I'd consider the pool of grassroots money is bigger this time around because of our growing influence in the party and the expansion of the grassroots which Rand is making possible. Not to mention, you'd have the likes of Levin, Hannity, Beck and others giving air time to anti-establishment primary opponents as well as articulate conservative challengers to open seats thus raking in even more money and making the grassroots base expand further. I would also assume that the conservative PACs will be spending big money in key areas to optimize their takings in terms of conservative candidates that aren't off the wall and sending token money to other random republican Senate candidates. Let's face it, out of the open seats and ones that they'll want to take back from democrats, JAmash and Brannon will be top priorities over the likes of what WV can offer as a GOP replacement to Rockefeller. Also, Broun will be a priority in GA but not in the vein of the former two.

That said, it remains to be seen what Rove is up to and where he'll flex his muscles which actually could be the kiss of death these days based on his dismal track record and hatred among the non-establishment folks. If we can get JAmash through the primary, the party will pay the general election tab for the most part since it becomes a Snyder-Amash package. Despite what Snyder has done to irk conservatives, the bottom line is the state is back on track (from where it was) and seems to be slightly improving. If Snyder rules out Obamacare exchanges, he'll shore up his conservative base but this remains to be seen. Having a conservative house and senate basically protects him from himself (from becoming a Romney) in this instance if they get the message across and our C4L has been active all across the state getting massive amounts of petitions flooded to Lansing over this. So, I'll defer to JAmash and let him check the real pulse w/ his peeps and support him if he sees the light but I think we're tough and big enough these days to handle a few Senate races. Because let's face it, we'd be spending another mill or more getting him reelected (which is already in the liberty budget) to the House so we're only diverting a few mill more for a win at this Senate seat.
Well said. I defer to Amash as well. If he makes it a go, I'm all in. I think you're correct when you point out that our fund raising base is casting a much larger net these days, and their general election races will go into an autopilot in terms of fund raising if we can push them to victory in the primaries. I'm liking this chess game more and more.
 
FSP-Rebel, that is some serious spin. No matter what you take away from the poll, it has to be negative. Either he has a -11 approval rating or he is a complete unknown. Which would you prefer? That's the point, though. No one outside his district knows him. That's a problem. If you're argument is that this poll was way too long, well, why was Amash receiving such bad numbers whereas other people had great number? PPP has been a great pollster for a while. They have given us no reason to doubt them. This poll is legit.
 
Low name recognition and only down 15 to Levin is not a bad thing AT ALL. Get lots of positive spin out there, tell him to write op-eds like Rand, etc.
 
Justin Amash ‏@justinamash
#MIGOP can't put up an unelectable establishment candidate for Senate who doesn't appeal to independent & moderate voters on federal issues.
 
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FSP-Rebel, that is some serious spin. No matter what you take away from the poll, it has to be negative. Either he has a -11 approval rating or he is a complete unknown. Which would you prefer? That's the point, though. No one outside his district knows him. That's a problem. If you're argument is that this poll was way too long, well, why was Amash receiving such bad numbers whereas other people had great number? PPP has been a great pollster for a while. They have given us no reason to doubt them. This poll is legit.
For one thing, the current negs come from the impression that he's tied to Ron by those who are rinos and by the baseline drones on the left that wouldn't even venture a positive view of a republican despite knowing nothing about them. And again, any prospective dem would get the same treatment and everyone is starting from scratch here. Regardless of my take on the poll, it was done prematurely to have any meaning outside of the obvious. Furthermore, you, me and a few others are even thinking about this right now. Give me 6-9 months and then I'll be freaking out if it's the same. Lastly, no interest in this will manifest itself for serious consideration until JAmash actually decides to run and the news will get out accordingly. The positive, as I previously mentioned, is that there are huge swaths of room to popularize him in over and above getting his name out. I'm sure you know that mounting a Senate primary involves speaking all over the place and he'll do that should he decide to run. Then he'll have an army of unpaid volunteers plus an array of outside support coming in financially to help him get on the airwaves outside of the scores of interviews he'll inevitably get.
 
I think if we can rule the senate with liberty politicians then we can bring most horrible legislation to its knees. I'm with Amash 100% should be decide to run. We need to rule the senate. Rand earned a lot of street cred with filibuster and would be an obvious endorsement of Amash.
 
Michigan is a state undergoing dramatic changes, no less than a paradigmn shift as they term it. You have to live there or know the state well to know which way those political winds are blowing. When incumbents retire, usually the other party gets their turn for some reason, as if the incumbent party goes into slumber. The economy has had an impact on the pro-union historical stance in the state as well. Something else is that republicans in the state that donate, view this seat as more of a prize than even the presidency almost. The primary I believe would be the biggest obstacle, because I believe this seat is going republican no matter what in 2014. That's my 2 cents, not alot of specific facts in my post, but I know trends well, and Michigan is trending towards not only republican, but real conservatism.
 
*sigh*

the kind of Republicans who won in 2010 in MI are like chalk and cheese to Amash who is an unabashed small govt conservative.

The kind of Republican that actually wins in MI are big government pandering moderates and Snyder is independently wealthy and was running against a corrupt administration so it was fairly easy.

That doesn't mean they're going to send a libertarian to the U.S Senate. They never have and never will. It's very easy to see this by looking at the history of who they have elected to those Senate seats over the last 60 YEARS. And you think Amash can buck this trend?! WHY?!

I don't know what trend you're talking about. The trend is that Michigan is a purple state that can vote for either party. So we don't need to buck the trend. We just need this midterm election to go Republican just like the last one did.

Of course Amash is different than all the other Republicans. Just like Rand is. That makes him a better candidate, not worse. If even Rick Snyder can win a statewide race, how much more should Amash be able to.

Also, why do you keep using "60 years"? Do elections 60 years ago indicate more about Michigan politics today than elections 3 years ago do?
 
I also don't get why people keep mentioning Amash's position in the House as an argument against running for Senate. That's not an argument against it, it's another argument for it.

How do you expect to ever get anyone in the Senate if we don't use the House as our farm league? If we get a chance to focus on one big race in 2014, then we couldn't do better than Amash for Senate. We have no other places where we could get behind a Senate candidate who's both as good as he is on the issues and as electable as a serious candidate. He's easily in a better position than Bills was, in part precisely because he's a Congressman.
 
Michigan is a state undergoing dramatic changes, no less than a paradigmn shift as they term it. You have to live there or know the state well to know which way those political winds are blowing. When incumbents retire, usually the other party gets their turn for some reason, as if the incumbent party goes into slumber. The economy has had an impact on the pro-union historical stance in the state as well. Something else is that republicans in the state that donate, view this seat as more of a prize than even the presidency almost. The primary I believe would be the biggest obstacle, because I believe this seat is going republican no matter what in 2014. That's my 2 cents, not alot of specific facts in my post, but I know trends well, and Michigan is trending towards not only republican, but real conservatism.
It's interesting hearing the responses of those on the ground in Michigan. I'd love to see election results by county, might have to delve into that later.
 
I also don't get why people keep mentioning Amash's position in the House as an argument against running for Senate. That's not an argument against it, it's another argument for it.

How do you expect to ever get anyone in the Senate if we don't use the House as our farm league? If we get a chance to focus on one big race in 2014, then we couldn't do better than Amash for Senate. We have no other places where we could get behind a Senate candidate who's both as good as he is on the issues and as electable as a serious candidate. He's easily in a better position than Bills was, in part precisely because he's a Congressman.
Yeah but we don't want to lose that one seat to a hack.
 
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