"Attractive hazard" [Orlando Gator attack]

[MelissaWV]

Actually now I am wondering why the new shore doesn't have the steep drop-off mentioned. They seemed to think warning about the drop-off would keep people out of the water and hence out of the jaws of alligators (or giant snakes, which is still perplexing), but that didn't work. Now they have signs about gators and snakes, but what if someone doesn't realize there's a shelf there and falls into suddenly deep water?

 

[jmdrake]

You're right. Someone should have put up a sign.

Want to take a guess as to where this sign is?

So my hypothetical, which you seem so interested in discounting, isn't really a hypothetical. This sign was up, and parents ignored it and their toddler was wading right near a steep drop-off. While engaged in what was already an action that endangered their child, another danger came up and snatched him away, likely aided by the deep water. That doesn't make it the parents' fault (maybe they were ready to swoop in if the child lost his footing, and felt they were prepared to guard against the drop-off danger), but for some reason no one seems to be pointing out these signs were there.

This is actually a missing piece for me. The story of the body being found yards from shore didn't make sense, but it does now. It's much deeper there, right off shore.

I'm still curious as to why you think this is an issue. I guess to you the words "steep drop off" means "If your feet touch the water you are likely to die." My brain isn't wired that way but perhaps yours is. I can walk with one foot on the sand and one foot in the water and be 100% safe even with a "steep drop off" some 10 feet or less into the water. Not so with a gator.



Okay. That's a crocodile and since you seem so intent on being right you'll probably argue that's different somehow. Here's an alligator jumping into a canoe.



Look! There was a sign warning of gators! How about that?

 

[jmdrake]

Actually now I am wondering why the new shore doesn't have the steep drop-off mentioned. They seemed to think warning about the drop-off would keep people out of the water and hence out of the jaws of alligators (or giant snakes, which is still perplexing), but that didn't work. Now they have signs about gators and snakes, but what if someone doesn't realize there's a shelf there and falls into suddenly deep water?

Again, why should a steep drop off sign stop someone from putting his foot in the water? Not the same kind of danger even if you want to pretend it is. Steep drop offs don't jump out of the water. Gators do.

 

[MelissaWV]

I'm still curious as to why you think this is an issue. I guess to you the words "steep drop off" means "If your feet touch the water you are likely to die." My brain isn't wired that way but perhaps yours is. I can walk with one foot on the sand and one foot in the water and be 100% safe even with a "steep drop off" some 10 feet or less into the water. Not so with a gator.



Okay. That's a crocodile and since you seem so intent on being right you'll probably argue that's different somehow. Here's an alligator jumping into a canoe.



Look! There was a sign warning of gators! How about that?

A toddler wading at the shore at night where there is a steep drop-off is not the same as you walking with one foot on the beach.

"Not so with an alligator" is inaccurate. It's highly unusual for alligators to randomly be aggressive and lunge at you on shore with no cover, unless they're hand-fed, which we've already covered over and over again. The video you posted says the same thing. Yes, I'm aware gators can jump and climb --- and do so regardless of signage. I'm the one that posted the video of one climbing a fence, and it's usually safe to assume you'd need an 8+ foot fence designed not to be climbable to keep out critters in this general category (including the aforementioned snakes and turtles). A stone barrier would be preferable, honestly, as I mentioned before.

Look! There IS a sign warning of gators! But not snakes... even though it's way more likely you'd be fending off a water moccasin in that area. Disney's ahead of them on that front. Neither of them seem to care about turtles or fire ants. Frankly, it's amazing any of us are alive.

 

[MelissaWV]

You can look up "Snakes at Disney" and go through the photos and videos, btw, and realize that's only a matter of time since people are idiots. When that happens, there will be calls for more signs since Disney definitely knows about them, too.



Apparently there HAVE been attacks. Where are you guys on this?

I have posted this story before, but someone suggested I repost it. If this story will help prevent anyone from going through what we did, then it is worth reposting.

Last May 2009, my son was bitten by a water moccasin at CBR. He dropped a toy at the edge of the sidewalk into some landscaping and bent down to pick it up, his feet never leaving the sidewalk. A snake bit him three times on the finger. He spent three days in intensive care and received 12 vials of anitvenin. Thankfully he is fine, all fingers still intact.

Just be aware of your surroundings, keep out of the landscaping, and you should be fine.

CBR = Caribbean Beach Resort

 

[pcosmar]

"Attractive Hazard" has always had a different meaning to me.

Mel is one.and probably Cajun and definitely Suzanimal .

perhaps the definition needs defining.

 

[MelissaWV]

"Attractive Hazard" has always had a different meaning to me.

Mel is one.and probably Cajun and definitely Suzanimal .

perhaps the definition needs defining.

lol Well I have signage up.

That's probably the best note on which to bow out and say g'night.

 

[jmdrake]

A toddler wading at the shore at night where there is a steep drop-off is not the same as you walking with one foot on the beach.

And do you have a topographical map showing just how steep the drop off is and how into the water before the drop off? Do you have evidence that the parents weren't holding the toddler's hand? Maybe you've never done this, but I have waded at lakes where there were drop offs but the drop off didn't start until a good 20 feet into the water. The parents could have waded in with the toddler and seen that there was no drop off danger for how far he was in the water. You're making blind assumptions.

"Not so with an alligator" is inaccurate. It's highly unusual for alligators to randomly be aggressive and lunge at you on shore with no cover, unless they're hand-fed, which we've already covered over and over again. The video you posted says the same thing.

A) It happens.

B) I've only been in close proximity with gators once on an airboat ride. The driver, a professional tour guide, tapped on the alligator with a stick to get it to open its mouth. Then he said "But I wouldn't be doing this at night because they become aggressive and might jump into the boat."

Oh but you know more than a Florida everglades tour guide I suppose.

Look! There IS a sign warning of gators! But not snakes... even though it's way more likely you'd be fending off a water moccasin in that area. Disney's ahead of them on that front. Neither of them seem to care about turtles or fire ants. Frankly, it's amazing any of us are alive.

And how many turtle deaths do you know about? How many turtles had attacked anyone at Disney? Or fire ants or water moccasins for that matter. Disney was on notice because of two reported attacks by gators. If those attacks had not happened then that would be another story. I think you realize how silly your "Well something else could have been a danger" argument is for you to go turtle.

 

[MelissaWV]

And do you have a topographical map showing just how steep the drop off is and how into the water before the drop off? Do you have evidence that the parents weren't holding the toddler's hand? Maybe you've never done this, but I have waded at lakes where there were drop offs but the drop off didn't start until a good 20 feet into the water. The parents could have waded in with the toddler and seen that there was no drop off danger for how far he was in the water. You're making blind assumptions.

A) It happens.

B) I've only been in close proximity with gators once on an airboat ride. The driver, a professional tour guide, tapped on the alligator with a stick to get it to open its mouth. Then he said "But I wouldn't be doing this at night because they become aggressive and might jump into the boat."

Oh but you know more than a Florida everglades tour guide I suppose.

And how many turtle deaths do you know about? How many turtles had attacked anyone at Disney? Or fire ants or water moccasins for that matter. Disney was on notice because of two reported attacks by gators. If those attacks had not happened then that would be another story. I think you realize how silly your "Well something else could have been a danger" argument is for you to go turtle.

Oh boy this thread again.

The "drop off" comment was based on the signs Disney had up, and additional information that came out after the hysteria regarding every alligator in Florida being out to murder humans had died down. The lagoon was designed for boats and fireworks; there was no need for a gradual drop-off. They put up signs but now you're ignoring them from afar. I find that funny, actually. The "assumption" that the parents weren't holding the kid's hand comes from the parents' own statements. They're lying, too?

I wouldn't be poking an alligator with a stick at night, either. That's what your tour guide said. He didn't say "I wouldn't come out here at night and quietly observe because the alligators will swarm me without provocation and leap into the boat." They're more active at night, and something small splashing in the water is likely going to be tested to see if it's food. That's a far cry from the scenarios people have dreamed up for themselves, likely complete with "Jaws" music and evil alligators bent on eating every human in sight.

I posted about snake attacks at Disney. If you are rolling your eyes over the dangers of snapping turtles, then your tour guide didn't do a particularly impressive job. Fire ants are a distinct hazard that has been documented at Disney multiple times, and it's a matter of time before someone with an allergy doesn't realize they are being bitten until it's too late. This hazard increases with the number of uncontrolled, more natural areas around the parks (like the sandy areas near that lagoon). If we were talking about this a year ago, you could just as easily roll your eyes because no one had been killed by an alligator... yet.

This happened in May just one state over:

Kalyn's mother-in-law, Sheila Rolan, said Kalyn was in Selma with her husband, Brandon, on May 20 preparing for her mother's viewing the following day when fire ants from a hay bale bit her. Kalyn had an allergic reaction to them and died.

"Brandon said she was standing there with a stick talking on the phone," Sheila Rolan said. "She was just beating the hay with the stick, Brandon said, and it stirred up the ants. She ran off the hay stack, and they tried to get her clothes off to get the ants off her."

Alligator snapping turtles:

if provoked they are quite capable of delivering a powerful bite which can easily amputate fingers or cause other significant injuries

There are more posts on Disney message boards than I could possibly add here about snakes well away from the water --- including in pools and rooms. There are bear and bobcat sightings as well, though much more vague. Again, the only reason people aren't freaking out about those is because they haven't been told to.

The parents have decided to go even further and not sue. Frankly, even though it was a horrid accident, they still had a case because the alligators were hand-fed and no longer a natural hazard, but that's their choice. I could see how they wouldn't want to relive this when someone gets posting Tourette Syndrome a month or two after the fact. (Hell in scrolling down after this I saw where I already told you all of this in late June, but you twisted/ignored it to resurrect this thread.) It also doesn't matter, since you've pointed out the warnings have nothing to do with actual danger and everything to do with prior attacks.

So why no warnings about the snakes throughout the park? And why no outrage over the lack of warnings? Because the MSM didn't mention it yet.

 

[jmdrake]

Oh boy this thread again.

You don't have to reply if you don't want to.

The "drop off" comment was based on the signs Disney had up, and additional information that came out after the hysteria regarding every alligator in Florida being out to murder humans had died down. The lagoon was designed for boats and fireworks; there was no need for a gradual drop-off. They put up signs but now you're ignoring them from afar. I find that funny, actually. The "assumption" that the parents weren't holding the kid's hand comes from the parents' own statements. They're lying, too?

Lyi9ng to? I haven't accused anyone of lying. Get your panties out of a knot. And I mentioned several alternatives where the situation might not have been as dangerous as you claimed regarding the drop off. But guess what? The drop off didn't kill the kid. The gator did. Let's take your argument to its logically absurd and conclusion. If someone has a sign up that says "beware of dog" does that free that person from liability for someone stepping on an exposed electrical wire? Of course not. I know you'd rather ignore the law while talking about the law. Silly but okay that's what you want to do. Disney was on notice about gator attacks. Disney should have put up a sign about gator attacks. Period. End of discussion with a rational person. Disney didn't need to put up a sign about water moccasins or turtles or fire ants or any other wild animal because they were not on notice. There had been no water moccasin, turtle or fire ant attack. Hell, I could side on the side of a lagoon and drape my feet over and get pulled in by a gator. That means that is a danger that is different and distinct from a drop off. That different and distinct danger needed an additional warning that the drop off sign simply doesn't cover. That's the law and it is the law because that is common sense.

I wouldn't be poking an alligator with a stick at night, either. That's what your tour guide said. He didn't say "I wouldn't come out here at night and quietly observe because the alligators will swarm me without provocation and leap into the boat." They're more active at night, and something small splashing in the water is likely going to be tested to see if it's food. That's a far cry from the scenarios people have dreamed up for themselves, likely complete with "Jaws" music and evil alligators bent on eating every human in sight.

Straw man argument. I said nothing about gator being like "jaws" or "evil" or "bent on eating every human in sight." Seriously you are arguing beneath your level now. You said gators don't jump in boats. I gave you evidence that there are times that they might. That's it.

I posted about snake attacks at Disney.

Then next time a snake bites someone at Disney you can start a thread about it. Until then there is no relevance.

If you are rolling your eyes over the dangers of snapping turtles, then your tour guide didn't do a particularly impressive job.

Let's see. How many snapping turtles have drug people who were on dry land or wading in the water to there death? Come on. "Impress" me oh wise one who thinks she knows all. How many? I'll answer my own question for you. Zero. None. Zilch. Hell, I go a step further and do your research for you. This is about the worst I can find for a snapping turtle attack.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germans-hunt-snapping-turtle-after-reported-attack-on-boy-1.1330393

Note the boy was swimming, not wading, and note that he was injured, not killed. And yet that prompted a much more aggressive response than what Disney did as a result of someone almost being dragged to his death by a gator years before this boy was killed.

Fire ants are a distinct hazard that has been documented at Disney multiple times, and it's a matter of time before someone with an allergy doesn't realize they are being bitten until it's too late. This hazard increases with the number of uncontrolled, more natural areas around the parks (like the sandy areas near that lagoon). If we were talking about this a year ago, you could just as easily roll your eyes because no one had been killed by an alligator... yet.

You're being ridiculous in your comparison. "someone with an allergy" You don't have to be "allergic" to a gator to be killed by one. Someone with an allergy has to take special precaution for himself or herself and keep medicine with himself or herself at all times because one never knows when he/she might ingest peanut butter or be stung by a bee or a wasp or whatever. So yes, I'm still very much rolling my eyes at you and no I would not have rolled my eyes at the suggestion one or even two years ago that Disney needed signs warning about gators. The law doesn't "roll its eyes" at that either.

 

[Occam's Banana]

I've found many times that libertarians try to be contrarian just to prove they are the biggest asshole in the room. It is what it is.

1. No you haven't.
2. No they don't.
3. No it isn't.

 

[dannno]

It is pretty common knowledge that the gators are everywhere in Florida. There are over a million in Florida, despite being listed as endangered for some reasonm

Ya, we have an overpopulation of seals and sea lions here, because, they are considered endangered. Good job, government.

 

[Occam's Banana]

[...] On a regular basis, I'd see a little old lady toddling out to the end of their dock with a bucket. She'd get to the end, and this freaking huge alligator would rise up and open his mouth, and she'd pour the contents of the bucket right in his mouth.

Well, damn! Now I gotta watch Lake Placid again ... (something good came out of reading this thread, after all ...)

 

[presence]

DEERFIELD BEACH, FLA. (WSVN) - A Central Florida woman underwent two surgeries, hours after, officials said, an alligator nearly bit her hand off in the Everglades, in Northwest Broward.
Broward Sheriff’s Fire Rescue officials said 49-year-old Kimberly Anne Sexton was bitten in the hand at

Willards fish camp

, a remote area west of Coral Springs, Friday evening. “She was standing on the dock, dropped a can into the water, and as she reached in to retrieve the can, that’s when she was bitten by the alligator,” said BSO spokesperson Mike Jachles.

Jachles said Sexton’s right hand was nearly severed as she reached for an empty Mountain Dew soda can. “She sustained a severe hand injury that was almost a full amputation of the right hand,” he said.
Two people accompanying Sexton at the camp, about a mile and a half west of the Sawgrass Expressway, near the Palm Beach County line, grabbed her by the legs to keep her from being pulled into the water. “That could have very well saved her life,” said Jachles.
Sexton’s hand was then freed.
Her friends were then able to call 911 on their cellphone and guide in the BSO helicopter, just before 6:30 p.m. The area is only accessible by airboat or helicopter.
The victim, who was visiting the Everglades with her husband from St. Cloud, was airlifted to Broward Health North in critical condition. Officials said she was “semi-conscious” during transport.
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission officials and other investigators gathered at the dock, just north of where the incident occurred, as friends of the victim rushed to the hospital.
Doctors are currently working to see if Sexton’s hand can be saved. Sexton’s husband told 7News she underwent two surgeries and is scheduled for a third procedure on Sunday.
Officials said the six-and-a-half-foot alligator was successfully captured by an authorized trapper.
Alligator attacks are rare, and visitors nearby speculated how this could have happened. “You’ve got to agitate them to get them to do something,” said an onlooker.
“I wouldn’t get too close to them,” said a woman. “I like to stay at a nice distance where I could get some pictures and stuff like that. I mean, they’re very fascinating creatures.”

http://wsvn.com/news/local/coral-springs-woman-bitten-by-alligator/

 

[angelatc]

http://ijr.com/2016/08/678344-grim-...release-of-final-report-from-wildlife-agency/

The details of the Disney attack.

According to the report, the 7-foot alligator that attacked Graves grabbed the little boy’s head when he was bent down at the water’s edge at Disney’s Seven Seas Lagoon.

Graves was building a sandcastle on the beach outside Disney’s Grand Floridian Resort and Spa.The report also reveals that Graves’s father, Matt, reached into the reptile’s mouth in an attempt to free his son’s head, but to no avail.

The Orange County Sheriff’s Office simultaneously released its final report on Monday afternoon. The report details several resort guests reporting sightings of the alligator “shortly before” the attack took place.

 

[specsaregood]

It is pretty common knowledge that the gators are everywhere in Florida. There are over a million in Florida, despite being listed as endangered for some reason.

FWIW, they haven't been on the endangered species list since 1987.

 

[asurfaholic]

FWIW, they haven't been on the endangered species list since 1987.

Oh thanks for clearing that up.