Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion

[mustard gas and roses]

Personally.... I'm Pro-Life.

With exceptions though....

I do think that abortions should be allowed in cases of Rape and Incest... of course, they'd have to have a police report to justify it.

that may actually help to get more rapes reported as well.



I also think it should be a state issue

rape is extremely hard to prosecute. you'd be effectively denying most raped women the right to an abortion.


The poll options make me angry.

 

[Madcat455]

rape is extremely hard to prosecute. you'd be effectively denying most raped women the right to an abortion.


The poll options make me angry.

No.. Not saying they have to have a conviction... Just have to "report" it.

Kind of like when my car is broken into.. they'll never catch the jerks, but I have it on file that it happened.


agree.. poll choices are severley lacking.

 

[mustard gas and roses]

No.. Not saying they have to have a conviction... Just have to "report" it.

Kind of like when my car is broken into.. they'll never catch the jerks, but I have it on file that it happened.


agree.. poll choices are severley lacking.

ok. i understand a little better now, but still. reporting a rape is extremely difficult for a lot of women(even more so with men, but that's not in the scope of this topic).

 

[IowaGarrett]

You might be interested then to do some medical research on how the fetus intereacts with its surroundings in the womb. It reacts to sound and movement. It explores its own body. It sucks its thumb.

Still not convinced? Evidenced based nursing dictates that the father should talk to the fetus, read books etc. in order for the fetus to begin to recognize the father's voice-- just as it will recognize its mothers voice; as it has heard it throughout the pregancy and recognizes and remembers it.
*We do these things because the fetus does "gain experience" in the womb.

This post was a good example of the lack of medical knowledge being a major factor affecting people's decisions to be Pro--choice/abortion/whateverword makesyoufeelbetterabouttherealityofwhatishappening.

And I didnt overlook the fact that no one has disputed the validity of my last post in case anyone is paying attention.

For me it comes down to who has rights are supreme - the rights of the mother or that of the unborn baby/fetus. When determining that, it also comes down to your definition of whether or not a fetus is a human life.

I tend to not think so. Personally I think that a fetus is just an empty shell, and that a child's mind and personality (others might think of a soul), are formed as a child grows up and gains experience.

I think that we need to have total control of our bodies as individuals - the state has no business telling us what we can or cannot do to ourselves. Accordingly, women can choose to do as they like when it comes to their wombs.

 

[IowaGarrett]

double post.

 

[IowaGarrett]

I wonder if I could get a pro-"mother's"choicer to address this directly... I thought I would repost to give them a second chance at a comprehensive and specific argument, preferably evidence-based.


Reposting:
While sounding on a basic and overly simplified level, informed, this argument reads like a judge's decision being passed down from the bench. Let me explain something we all know... the judges ruling makes it legal-- it doesnt make it right.

As far as this declaration on the basis of viability goes... I dont see it as any stronger than any other argument.

Life is life. This is intrinsic.

I see nothing intrinsic about an embryo's rights being tied to the mother? What about being viable gives more rights? "The chance of surviving on its own" somehow grants rights, whereas not being able to survive on one's own takes them away? I havent met any newborn who had any "chance of surviving on its own". The only thing that gives these children a "chance of surviving on their own" IS the granting of RIGHTS-- which happens at birth under law-- which binds the medical staff to act in a way to preserve life (whether abandoned by the "mother" or not).

Unfortunately, without rights many living creatures are not "viable" from conception... or ever.

On a side note:
Ive seen enough sick people, critically ill. These people were far from "viable" and had no chance of surviving on their own. But they did. Because someone stepped in. Because they have rights we are bound by law to act in a manner to preserve their life by any means available. We shouldnt stand aside.


*****Quote:
Originally Posted by daniroyer
During the first trimester, the fertilized embryo's chance of surviving on its own is nil and its rights are tied to the woman's. When the second trimester starts, the fetus is much more viable and has its own rights. Into the third trimester, the fetus is it's own being and the chance of survival with proper medical care is decently likely.

I'm never "for" abortion, but I believe it should be legal during the first trimester. It's sadly become a staple and if made illegal now, would push many women to seek illegal, unsafe procedures. We need to end this problem through proper sex ed, a better economy, and driving home PERSONAL responsibility.

My hope is that by time my sons are old enough to have to worry about this issue, abortion will be a legal medical procedure of extreme last resort. By then there should be better access to birth control for both women AND men. That is what I am working for. ******

 

[allyinoh]

I don't see anything wrong with pro-life or pro-abortion. You are either for abortions or against them. There's no middle ground.

I don't judge people if they support abortions, but I cringe everytime someone says, "I should be able to do with my body what I want." Like Dr. Paul says, what is the difference between a minute before birth and a minute after?

I think it boils down to the fact that women are too lazy to protect themselves the way they know how. People, we all know that if you take birth control and you always use a condom, there is barely any chance you are going to get pregnant. If everyone just followed that, we wouldn't have a need for abortions.

And remember, if it's not a baby, you're not pregnant.

 

[jclay2]

Here is the deal: Abortion is a social issue. It is downright wrong, but the amount of shear power that one would have to give to the government to stop it is astronomical. Therefore, to stop abortion and protect life, there must be a moral and social movement. Nothing else will work. No roe v. wade, law, or institution can legilsate morals.

 

[-lotus-]

well since i cant make life, nor do i hold myself above anyone else, i am pro choice because its not my place nor do i think its ANYONE's place, government included, to tell another human what they can or cant do with their own body.

 

[Rangeley]

Here is the deal: Abortion is a social issue. It is downright wrong, but the amount of shear power that one would have to give to the government to stop it is astronomical. Therefore, to stop abortion and protect life, there must be a moral and social movement. Nothing else will work. No roe v. wade, law, or institution can legilsate morals.

And this is different from crimes in general how? The government cant stop a robber from robbing, but robbery is nonetheless a crime as it is the violation of someone elses rights. That someone else has a legal recourse, because their rights were violated, to go after the robber assuming they are found.

The government cant stop a murderer from murdering, but murder is nonetheless a crime as it is the violation of someone elses rights. While that someone else, in this case, cannot take any legal actions themselves, they can be represented in abstentia and legal action can still be taken against the perpetrator. Personally, this is good enough for me because I consider abortion to be murder, but if you want to put it into a seperate category I am sure you know how it would go. This isnt about legislating morals, or punishing someone for living the way they want to. Its about providing a protection to people from people who want to take violate their rights, and to provide a legal recourse (in this case, for their legal representative) if such a thing happens.

 

[-lotus-]

if you want to live in a world with no abortion because you value life, then you would also want to abolish the death penalty, and the military, blah blah blah because dont they also threaten the life that you hold so sacred?

 

[allyinoh]

if you want to live in a world with no abortion because you value life, then you would also want to abolish the death penalty, and the military, blah blah blah because dont they also threaten the life that you hold so sacred?

How about personal responsibility? Ron Paul talks about this all the time. You know that you can have a child if you have sex. If you aren't ready to potentially raise a child, don't have sex!!! What's so hard about that?

 

[PetersburgPanic]

As a result of my religious background, I consider every life to be sacred. So I oppose the death penalty as well as abortion on religious/moral/personal grounds.

That being said, as a man I'll never understand the issue of abortion fully from the perspective of a woman, and I think the federal government should not ban abortion A)because I don't think it has a right to and B) because abortions will occurr no matter what--so better that they be safe.

So I think my relatively simple moral views end up at a more complicated political reality, that I think abortion should be safe and legal within the first trimester, but also heavily discouraged with a much better job done at educating at risk populations.

 

[Rangeley]

As a result of my religious background, I consider every life to be sacred. So I oppose the death penalty as well as abortion on religious/moral/personal grounds.

That being said, as a man I'll never understand the issue of abortion fully from the perspective of a woman, and I think the federal government should not ban abortion A)because I don't think it has a right to and B) because abortions will occurr no matter what--so better that they be safe.

So I think my relatively simple moral views end up at a more complicated political reality, that I think abortion should be safe and legal within the first trimester, but also heavily discouraged with a much better job done at educating at risk populations.

So since murders happen regardless of murder being illegal, should we legalize assassination as a profession to make it "safe" and avoid the errors that someone lacking skill might make? Your reasoning falls short for the same reason this would - while its safer in the respect that fewer people might be harmed if someone with skill carries it out, it is nonetheless the violation of someones right to life. Making something a crime doesn't stop it entirely, but it does provide a legal recourse against those who commit it.

 

[allyinoh]

Making something a crime doesn't stop it entirely, but it does provide a legal recourse against those who commit it.

This is very true.

 

[Paulfan05]

Im pro choice, but only it the abortion is done early, not like 7 months

 

[Eponym_mi]

Making something a crime doesn't stop it entirely, but it does provide a legal recourse against those who commit it.

Using marijuana, speeding, swearing, spitting on sidewalks, and jaywalking are illegal too. The point being when you have too many people doing something, you need an army to actually enforce the law. What do you really hope to accomplish here? How many more prisons are you proposing?

 

[Rangeley]

Using marijuana, speeding, swearing, spitting on sidewalks, and jaywalking are illegal too. The point being when you have too many people doing something, you need an army to actually enforce the law. What do you really hope to accomplish here? How many more prisons are you proposing?

And are those things the violation of someone elses rights?

 

[gracebkr]

We are endowed by our Creator, whether it be God or the universe, with a right to life and no one has a "right" to take that life. What's next infanticide? The slippery slope.

 

[gracebkr]

Im pro choice, but only it the abortion is done early, not like 7 months

At 12 weeks the heart is beating, which means the brain is working. You can't have an abortion, at least in my state until 12 weeks.